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13-12-2010, 00:17   #1
Cpt_Blackbeard
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POC's Red Card.++ Mod Warning. Read OP++

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Mod Warning

Watch the tribalism and LvM crap. Discuss the incident all ye like, but any incivility, personal or player abuse and the ban-sticks coming out.

Toom

Just thought that this incident would warrant its own thread, I know that there has been some talk about it in the match thread but I've a feeling that more opinions will come out if/when he is cited re. the length of any ban.

Personally I think that it was just reckless/foolish play by the great man. The fake tan's were obstructing players and holding them back all night, as were Munster yet the ref did nothing about it.

I don't think that the flailing forearm should have been anything more than a yellow, it was stupid but doesn't deserve a ban and if he gets a ban it should be no more than 2 weeks. If Thomas (I think) didn't go down like a ton of bricks, there would have been no card. He might have a future acting if the rugby doesn't work out. I doubt it would have been a red if it wasn't Berdos pinging POC tbh. They don't have the best of histories.

Seeing that it is a Munster player and the club captain, I expect a ridiculous ban ~16 weeks . The IRB would be better off giving penalties for obstruction and holding players back rather than making an example of POC. At least he will be well rested for the WC.

Anyone have any opinions about possible citing on Varley for gouging in the 75th minute and Leamy for a shoulder charge in a ruck in the 79th minute. I think they are pretty much nothing incidents but we'll have to wait and see.

Last edited by toomevara; 13-12-2010 at 08:55.
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13-12-2010, 00:33   #2
backrow67n8
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Good thread!! lovely cant wait to come home tomorrow after work and go straight to page 3 for the leinster v munster slagging

Don't think it was red and have seen guys get away with that completely but imo it was yellow and a kick up the rear from McGahan for losing his cool
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13-12-2010, 00:40   #3
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If you honestly believe that a swinging forearm the size of an average leg hitting you in the jaw wouldn't floor you, and that J.Thomas was milking it, you're insane.

Also, to say that cracking down on cynical penalties vs hot headed and reckless behaviour would be more beneficial to the game, consider that very few people have ever been badly hurt on a rugby pitch because someone obstructed them, or held them down in a ruck. Yes its frustrating, and can get on your nerves and slow you down, but you act like a man and get on with it.

However, people have been hurt by players lashing out, not just in rugby, in soccer and other games. Roy Keane ended someone's career with a moment of hot headedness.

Referees are there to protect the players as much as they are to ensure the game runs smoothly. Punishing reckless foul play should be top of their list.

As I mentioned in the match thread several times, O'Connell's problem was self inflicted, the foul play occurred the second he shifted his body to swing the forearm.

The contact, intent, or lack of either, are both completely irrelevant.

The whistle had been blown, but he lost his composure. He is 100% to blame
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13-12-2010, 00:42   #4
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Expecting 8 weeks brought down to 5 for previous record.
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13-12-2010, 00:44   #5
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I feel very strongly about this and I fell POC was the victim of the on-going failure of match officials to apply the laws of the game even-handedly at the breakdown and at set-pieces (On a side-note, an exemplary Irish official has been the subject of a succesful hate-campaign by New Zealand because he refereed Ritchie McCaw according to the laws and nullified his claims to greatness by penalising his illegal tactics at line-out and breakdown).

POC was being prevented from joining the play because he was being held illegally. I feel the swing was a genuine attempt to free himself from the illegal interference. The referee stated POC struck his opponent with his elbow - he did not - it was his hand and wrist that made contact, which is not ro say that a slap from Paulie is a minor thing, but Thomas going down as if he'd been shot was way OTT.

If the officials has penalised Thomas in the first place, Paulie would have finished the match.

What tarriff does Paulie's action deserve? I feel a yellow for dangerous play would have been more than sufficient and a training course for the match officials on the off-the-ball laws, whiuch they seemed to wake up to when Mastermind Donners held 2 or 3 players on the ground later.

Clive Owens (yet again !!!!) gave a master-class in anti-Irish refereeing in the Leinster match. We are getting the short end of the stick with our officials and with our teams.
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13-12-2010, 00:47   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathepac View Post
If the officials has penalised Thomas in the first place, Paulie would have finished the match.
This is not true, dissent is also a foul. It would've been a Munster penalty, which then would've been reversed with Paul being sent from the pitch.

The whistle had also been blown before the blow was struck.

Read above regarding the rest of your post.
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13-12-2010, 01:00   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emmet02 View Post
If you honestly believe that a swinging forearm the size of an average leg hitting you in the jaw wouldn't floor you, and that J.Thomas was milking it, you're insane.

Also, to say that cracking down on cynical penalties vs hot headed and reckless behaviour would be more beneficial to the game, consider that very few people have ever been badly hurt on a rugby pitch because someone obstructed them, or held them down in a ruck. Yes its frustrating, and can get on your nerves and slow you down, but you act like a man and get on with it.

However, people have been hurt by players lashing out, not just in rugby, in soccer and other games. Roy Keane ended someone's career with a moment of hot headedness.

Referees are there to protect the players as much as they are to ensure the game runs smoothly. Punishing reckless foul play should be top of their list.

As I mentioned in the match thread several times, O'Connell's problem was self inflicted, the foul play occurred the second he shifted his body to swing the forearm.

The contact, intent, or lack of either, are both completely irrelevant.

The whistle had been blown, but he lost his composure. He is 100% to blame
Of course it would floor me but I'm not 6ft5 and 17.5 Stone either though and I'm pretty sure that the arm would have sailed over my head .

If they send out a message that all the "cute whoreness" of holding players off the ball will result in a penalty we will get a quicker game of players showcasing their actual talents. If the refs just started giving out penalties for it, like what happened DOC, we would get a better spectacle.

The lashing out was only bad because of POC's size, if Stringer did the same and hit Thomas in the nuts, we would be in for a fantastic Youtube video rather than a red card. If Paulie hit Thomas in the chest it would have been fine and a fair attempt at freeing himself. POC was stupid but there was nothing less, he doesn't really deserve a ban but 2 weeks would be fair for an act of stupidity.

Contact and Intent are completely relevant, if he had telegraphed a hit woth his elbow and it resulted in the same incident, nobody would be protesting POC's innocence.

Keane didn't end Haland's (spelling) career because of hot-headedness, it was revenge
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13-12-2010, 01:08   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathepac View Post
... If the officials has penalised Thomas in the first place, Paulie would have finished the match...
The officials failed to apply the laws properly. That is the failure. Penalise Thomas for illegal play, incident over, no need for dissent, Paulie stays on the field. Review the precise sequence of events. Paulie being fouled away from play was the first incident and the officials seemed to elect not to act on it (two massive men, on their own, wrestling in the middle of a field - it's kinda hard to miss, unless you deliberately choose to ignore it in the first place.)

Last edited by mathepac; 13-12-2010 at 01:10.
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13-12-2010, 01:08   #9
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Quote:
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However, people have been hurt by players lashing out, not just in rugby, in soccer and other games. Roy Keane ended someone's career with a moment of hot headedness.
Urban myth.
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13-12-2010, 01:20   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emmet02 View Post
If you honestly believe that a swinging forearm the size of an average leg hitting you in the jaw wouldn't floor you, and that J.Thomas was milking it, you're insane.
The ref seemed to think it was his elbow, which from this photo we know it wasn't.

http://sepaphoto.photoshelter.com/ga...000Dp108vR5mTA

It would floor me, but I'm not a 6'5", 18 stone professional rugby player.
From the photo you will see POC got him in the mouth.
From the video, Thomas is clutching his forehead. Thats play acting.

I think POC should have kept his cool and not swung his arm, but Thomas milked that.

Quote:
Also, to say that cracking down on cynical penalties vs hot headed and reckless behaviour would be more beneficial to the game, consider that very few people have ever been badly hurt on a rugby pitch because someone obstructed them, or held them down in a ruck. Yes its frustrating, and can get on your nerves and slow you down, but you act like a man and get on with it.
Well, maybe if the reffing standards were improved. The Ospreys got a penalty because DOC was holding Philips. The ref surely must have seen how off-side Thomas was and that he was pulling POC. But then again, he thought that POC had hit him with his elbow! Very poor reffing.

Quote:
However, people have been hurt by players lashing out, not just in rugby, in soccer and other games. Roy Keane ended someone's career with a moment of hot headedness.
I'm no apologist for Roy Keane, but that statement is incorrect. Alf inge haaland was forced to retire because of an injury to his other leg, not the one that Keane got. He also tried to sue Keane and lost his case and didn't get any compensation.

More milking it.

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Referees are there to protect the players as much as they are to ensure the game runs smoothly. Punishing reckless foul play should be top of their list.
A good way of sorting it out is to be award penalties for messing and save us all the bother of having to put up with this.

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As I mentioned in the match thread several times, O'Connell's problem was self inflicted, the foul play occurred the second he shifted his body to swing the forearm.

The contact, intent, or lack of either, are both completely irrelevant.

The whistle had been blown, but he lost his composure. He is 100% to blame
What's your point? He has been blamed - he got a red card (although the ref seemed to think it was for an elbow).
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13-12-2010, 02:31   #11
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On one side if your pulling at people to prevent them continuing with play you got what you deserved to be honest.

On the other you really cant be throwing your arms around without expecting consequences either.

So I think Red was warranted as there was contact to the face whether it was an elbow or not. Also I think the shot to the face was justified too .

Before anyone claims otherwise I do think that from the photos its still red but what i'm saying is can they change the reason for the red after the fact
He was red carded for an elbow to the face and pictures show that not to be the case. Can the red card be held up since it was for something that didn't happen?

On that point also is he automatically cited for the offence ( elbow to the face ) or does someone look at it before hand and then title the citing? (i.e in this case cite him for general striking )

Assuming its automatic and taken from the refs report. Surely there cannot be a ban handed out since he has clearly not elbowed him in the face.

Discuss.

Last edited by castie; 13-12-2010 at 03:46.
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13-12-2010, 03:52   #12
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Looking at the video, all Berdos saw was a pretty vicious smack to the face. No option but to give a red. I reckon he'll be out until after the New Year's Day match anyway.
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13-12-2010, 07:36   #13
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Vey unlike POC - Must have been rusty and unable to handle the frustration better. Building up stamina, strenght etc... is only one part of coming back after so long - remembring how to deal with annoying f**kers on the field is another thing to get used to.

The red will stand - he may well be cited but no more that 2 weeks of a ban will be handed down, Fact is he should not have swung the arm, the photo will help, in that it proves it was not the elbow, it won't help as it also proves he was looking at him when he hit him.
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13-12-2010, 08:41   #14
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Some desperate clutching at straws here.

Regardless of what happened, no player is permitted to react as "Paulie" (since everyone here seems to know him) did and he was deservedly carded.
I don't see him escaping a ban.
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13-12-2010, 08:43   #15
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I'll never win this argument with the people involved vociferously from the other side of it. That does not suggest that I am wrong, but some people will have utmost faith in things even when proof is in front of their face.

Arguing that Thomas is at fault here is similar to the poster who suggested that Healy be cited for pulling down the maul that Hayes got red carded in.

You are looking at the situation from a different angle. Paul o Connell is a professional rugby player, and should act accordingly. No matter what is going on around him.

He threw a reckless swinging arm at an opponent after the whistle had already been blown. this is sinply inexcusable, and a red card. It really is that simple
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