Emmigrants, and the vote, or lack of it.

munchkin_utd · 22-11-2010 3:09pm #1

John Gormley has just announced that he thinks there should be an election in the new year.
Seeing as they hold the balance of power there WILL be an election in January.

But that got me thinking.
For those of us abroad, Irish born, bred and educated (to the cost of the Irish taxpayer) it'll be something that we will be looking on from the outside.

The minute you move abroad, you loose your vote.
In practice it may take a while for the electoral register to be updated, but if you arent a resident of the 26 counties you arent entitled to a vote.

Personally, I think its a lost opportunity that those now being forced abroad because of the economy arent also giving an input to the future of the country. Theres a different perspective there that could be tapped into for the good of the nation.

Some countries bind the vote to the passport like the US. For ireland thats not a runner with nearly as many passport holders outside the country as in the 26 counties.

Britain has it that you keep your vote for the first number of years abroad, and you get a postal vote.
Other countries (Greece I think) have a few seats in the Parliament for the Diaspora.

So should emigrants retain a vote when moving away, and under what conditions should it happen?

Euro_Kraut · 22-11-2010 3:19pm

I agree. Most countries seems to have votes for citizens who live abroad. E.g. USA, Canada, Australia, Poland, UK, Austria.

Ireland is unique that we allow convicted murderers and rapists to vote from prision, but deny the vote to people working in Brussels for a couple of month.

On top of that people on holidays on election day have no chance of voting.

silja · 22-11-2010 3:26pm

I don't really agree that those living abroad (like myself) should be able to vote. Why should they help decide what is going on in a country they may not have visited for years and/or may never return to?

I can see your point though, for people who are essentially forced to move abroad due to economical necessity. Switzerland has one (or two?) people in their parliament who are specifically representing the Swiss abroad, that may be a way to go. Or tie conditions to voting from abroad, for example:
- must be resident abroad for less than 5 years
- Must pay a fee of 30 euro (to offset posting costs, and prevent voter fraud/ people voting specifically to skew numbers).
- Must show ties to Ireland (for example having visited within the last year, still having a bank account there or similar).

munchkin_utd · 22-11-2010 3:39pm

a valid view is that theres no representation without taxation.
I would have agreed with that before, but not any more.

50% of the irish workforce dont pay tax.
Most pensioners dont.
Nobody on the dole does.
Students (not counted on the workforce figures) also wouldnt pay tax.

So basically, most people who CAN currently vote in Ireland dont pay tax, so I want a bit of the action too!!

.

Johnny_Trotter · 23-11-2010 10:39am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Some countries bind the vote to the passport like the US. For ireland thats not a runner with nearly as many passport holders outside the country as in the 26 counties.

This is probably the main reason why Ireland doesn't have the vote for emigrants. If even a quarter of those who could qualify for an Irish passport living abroad were allowed to vote, it would utterly change the Irish political scene. Those (potentially millions) of people would not necessarily be voting with 'parish-pump' politics in mind, and politicians would need to target voters in totally different ways.

It could totally revolutionise Irish politics - which is why it won't happen.

Nikkio237 · 23-11-2010 3:15pm

While I understand that there is a particular difficulty with Irish descendants born abroad, and those who have left for personal reasons and don't want to return, there are a huge amount of Irish abroad who - as it's been said - have left due to the economy and the fairly atrocious political climate at the moment. We're completely denied a vote which, if it changed conditions at home, could allow us to move back.

I don't want to settle abroad. Ireland's my home, and I hate that - having been forced out of it by the economical situation in the first place - I should also lose my right to change it for the better, so that I can go home eventually.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but is the government trying to get rid of the Irish population?

Fysh · 23-11-2010 3:43pm

I'll be honest, I don't see it as that big a deal.

I understand the frustration of not being able to vote when you live outside of the country - but looking at the numbers of people who would be eligible to vote if residence in Ireland weren't a requirement, I can understand the concerns about having a voting system where a sizeable (as in, low-to-mid-double-digits) percentage of the voting population are not residents in the country and thus unlikely to be directly affected by the policies enacted by those voted in.

As for those who have left wanting to move back home...there's something to be said for the argument that, by leaving and thus ceasing to pay any form of tax, you've given up the right to influence how the country runs.

A more interesting question is, would you be happy to do an annual tax declaration to the Irish government as part of your continued Irish citizenship and the right to a postal vote?

JonnyF · 23-11-2010 3:50pm

I can understand your frustration at not being able to vote but to be honest I don't think it's fair that people who do not reside here and pay taxes here should have a say in the running of the state.
There are many reasons why people emigrate and I'm not going to go into each of them here but ultimately they have left Ireland and no longer contribute pay taxes so I don't think that emigrants should be entitled to vote in elections here.

Nikkio237 · 23-11-2010 4:31pm

Honestly? If I could be sure that my taxes were going somewhere that wasn't the back pocket of a politician I'd be more than happy to pay something towards postal vote. I'm still paying road tax and insurance on my car, because I travel back and forth home as frequently as finances allow.

Once I get the date for the election it's entirely possible that I'll try and come back for a short visit, and vote in my local polling station - I'm not non-resident yet, I've still got my address at home in case things pick up enough for me to go back after university.

I'm far from a tax-dodger. I'm a 20 year old student whose choices at home look dire. I'm looking at a future in Canada or the US; halfway around the world from my family and friends. If changes aren't made, I can't come back. I want to be able to have my chance to make those changes.

Like I said, I understand the difficulty of overseas voting for the Irish diaspora who have no interest in the country, or their descendants who've never lived in Ireland. But I know just as many who aren't choosing to leave, and who'd go back in half a second if they had a chance. Can you please give me a reason besides taxes for why we shouldn't be heard in our own country?

Fysh · 23-11-2010 4:43pm

Nikkio237 wrote: »

Can you please give me a reason besides taxes for why we shouldn't be heard in our own country?

To put it bluntly, you're not living there or contributing to the economy. They may not seem fair reasons, but they're accurate.

Talking about "should" is dangerous, when it comes to politics, because an awful lot of people think an awful lot of things "should" happen, and sometimes those things that they want to happen are downright stupid, dangerous, or even worse.

Given that those of us living outside of Ireland retain our citizenship without any obligations such as paying taxes, on what principles would you argue that Irish citizens living and working elsewhere should be given the right to vote in Irish elections? How would you sell the idea to those at home?

Nikkio237 · 23-11-2010 5:34pm

To put it bluntly, bull. As munchkin_utd pointed out above, many people living in Ireland don’t pay taxes, and are still eligible to vote.

I pay my car tax; I pay VAT on purchases I make when at home – often substantial, designed to last while I’m over here; I have an Irish bank account with charges every month; I can and do send money home to family, who then spend it in Ireland. I fly Aer Lingus or Ryanair. I have an Irish mobile, which earns Roaming charges for the network, and taxes for the government. I have membership to my local sports club; I purchase prize bonds; I have a Credit Union savings account. I often wait until I get home to go to my local dentist or hairdresser, when I have the option. I support Irish charities. Do not tell me I contribute nothing to the Irish economy. If you’re one of “those of us living outside Ireland” that don’t, then that’s your case and I’m not going to argue it for you. But it’s not mine, and your statement is far from accurate.

Would you rather I sat at home on the Dole? I can’t afford university in Ireland, so that’s what I would be doing. I’d be entitled to vote then, and be equally as “contributing to the economy” as I am now.

I do understand the idea that political obligations don’t always turn out the way they’ve been planned. And I’m not asking for every American with a great-great-grandfather from Kilkenny to be able to vote. I’m asking for those young people (the age the government tries to promote high voting levels, yes?) who have no development loans hanging over their heads, and no bribes in their back pockets, to be given a chance to change the current system, and have a financially stable option to return home. Surely that’s better for the Irish economy, and Irish politics?

Fysh · 23-11-2010 6:43pm

You're missing my point (not least because, as an Irish citizen living in London I don't have a vote either and therefore would have no say in the event of a referendum on changing the existing voting situation) and mistakenly assuming that I might not be playing devil's advocate.

My point is, any change in the existing voting system to give Irish citizens not resident in the country a vote is going to have to be something that is seen to be in the interests of those who already do have a vote.

You're contributing to the economy but you're not paying income tax. Tourists contribute to the economy by paying VAT, as do non-Irish citizens; the logic you're espousing doesn't differentiate between why you should have the vote and why they should have the vote.

Your arguments about how you spend money at home every chance you get aren't going to win folks over - hell, what you're saying is that you already contribute to the economy without having a vote. Where's the incentive to give you the vote if you're still spending that money anyway?

And as for politicians being mean for not letting you change the country....it's politics. They sell you the promise of change and a fair deal, but they don't deliver it. As the Greens so wonderfully demonstrated (followed by the Lib Dems in the UK) all you get is an equally dodgy politician in a different colour tie.

P_1 · 24-11-2010 1:55pm

In my opinion if you have lived in Ireland within the previous three years, you should be entitled to vote.

As an aside, I assume that one may just come home to vote?

munchkin_utd · 24-11-2010 2:18pm

pithater1 wrote: »

In my opinion if you have lived in Ireland within the previous three years, you should be entitled to vote.

As an aside, I assume that one may just come home to vote?

a) do you mean an Irish person emmigrated to abroad could vote for the first 3 years?
or anyone at all landing in Ireland could vote after 3 years (despite the fact they may not have a clue about country or even speak english in order to understand what the politicans are offering!!) ?

b) nope. but yes.
If youre still on the register then they cant find out youre abroad in the voting centre, so if you landed home to vote then you could let on you never left.

Sure send in someone with a bill or something along with the voting card sent to your home place and they could vote for you so long as they arent known in the voting centre.
Actually, it isnt even a REQUIREMENT to produce id, let alone photo id.

P_1 · 24-11-2010 2:34pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

a) do you mean an Irish person emmigrated to abroad could vote for the first 3 years?
or anyone at all landing in Ireland could vote after 3 years (despite the fact they may not have a clue about country or even speak english in order to understand what the politicans are offering!!) ?

My apologies, what I meant was that an Irish citizen who emigrates should have the first three years to vote at the irish embassy in the country they have emigrated to.

Nikkio237 · 24-11-2010 2:43pm

I must admit it didn’t occur to me that you were playing devil’s advocate; you seemed to be changing your mind on what you thought every time I agreed with you on a point.

It’s good to know it was just a miscommunication!

Regarding the interests of those voting in Ireland: How many people have family abroad who still have an interest in their home country? On the opposite side, how many politicians would benefit from a vote from someone who has just left? At the moment, Fine Gael would certainly enjoy another few votes. As for my contributions as a tourist, I’m not even going to argue the point – if you’d actually read how I spend my money at home, most of it is beneficial to my locality, and still reflects someone from the community rather than a tourist. Income tax is only one tax affecting an Irish citizen at home. You’re actually contradicting your own statement, but hey, I’ve made my point.

I’d like to point out that I never espoused that politicians were either “mean” or “fair”. Please read my replies before you tear them apart (wrongly)? Politicians do, however, get in on the will of the people, and not everyone is quite as cynical as your devil’s advocacy.

munchkin_utd · 24-11-2010 3:31pm

theres a number of angles on why former irish residents should continue to keep the vote, and I am sure theres more aside from this small selection.

- defacto, its the case that former irish residents abroad have the vote. Who ever updates the electoral register? And even when they do, if your parents just say "leave him on it" then they will!!!
10 1/2 years after leaving Ireland my wife is still on the register. Her vote even moved house with the parents. (mine is gone as the local headmaster is the lad in charge of updating the list and he knew right well I am in Germany!!)
All she is missing is a postal vote to exercise her "right" to vote!
Many abroad are also still on the register in all corners of the republic.
Allowing the vote would simply legally recognise the state of matters already there

- the government / tax payers have already invested heavily in you by paying fully or all but a few euros of your education. Youre a voice that should be kept in the loop, and not cast away like a piece of chewing gum on the sole of your shoe the minute you depart the Irish shores.

- people who have spent time abroad bring another view on matters.
For a nation that is SO heavily linked with emmigration, currently and historically, coupled with a self image of being a key player in the global marketplace, the Irish abroad bring a link to this world outside the little island of Ireland that defines the nation as much as its irishness in itself.

-Ireland claims to be a state representing the 32 counties. (the name of the country is plainly "Ireland" not "Republic of Ireland", amasadors abroad are the "Ambasador of Ireland", embassys "Embassy of Ireland" the president is "President of Ireland" etc. )
Yet almost two facedly, those in the 6 counties have NO representation despite living in "Ireland". One of the ways of introducing voting privileges to non resident citizens that other countries use, is to have a small number of seats specially for those abroad. If this was brought in, Irish in the 6 counties for the FIRST TIME would have a stake in the nation claiming to represent them, and the Irish abroad would be also represented.

last but not least:

- you may already have paid PRSI stamps - youre owed money from the government at some stage as a pension and you'd like to vote on which fecker is managing it.

on the other hand
NOT having the vote allows us abroad to proudly and truthfully say that we had no hand or part in the madness that enveloped Ireland over the past decade and the fallout that its now experencing!! And the re-electing of the same crowd over and over .

A lot of non irish abroad expect that you keep the vote ( as this is the common practice with other countries) and by NOT having the vote you can show that you have no longer ANY link or connection to that crazy island at the edge of the continent, with all its wild horses and beggars and whatnot!!

.

Fysh · 24-11-2010 4:29pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

theres a number of angles on why former irish residents should continue to keep the vote, and I am sure theres more aside from this small selection.

- defacto, its the case that former irish residents abroad have the vote. Who ever updates the electoral register? And even when they do, if your parents just say "leave him on it" then they will!!!
10 1/2 years after leaving Ireland my wife is still on the register. Her vote even moved house with the parents. (mine is gone as the local headmaster is the lad in charge of updating the list and he knew right well I am in Germany!!)
All she is missing is a postal vote to exercise her "right" to vote!
Many abroad are also still on the register in all corners of the republic.
Allowing the vote would simply legally recognise the state of matters already there

"It's broken so keep it broken" is not a particularly strong argument, though. If you're asking for the voting system to be reformed, the failings of the current system will be among the first things to be highlighted and addressed.

By itself, this point merely says that people are sneaky and will circumvent the rules where they can - hardly a good basis on which to mount the case for electoral reform.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

- the government / tax payers have already invested heavily in you by paying fully or all but a few euros of your education. You're a voice that should be kept in the loop, and not cast away like a piece of chewing gum on the sole of your shoe the minute you depart the Irish shores.

I don't understand what you're getting at, here. The investment into education by the Irish government should, if anything, be an incentive to discourage emigration so as to retain those skilled and educated citizens within the country where they will then work and contribute to the economy overally.

Letting them emigrate and retain a postal vote doesn't do much of anything to generate a return on the initial investment of educating them.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

- people who have spent time abroad bring another view on matters.
For a nation that is SO heavily linked with emmigration, currently and historically, coupled with a self image of being a key player in the global marketplace, the Irish abroad bring a link to this world outside the little island of Ireland that defines the nation as much as its irishness in itself.

They have a view not rooted in the local affairs which dictate much of Irish politics. I'm not sure that there's any particular benefit to trying to add a more detached perspective to Irish politics without also amending the working processes for the politicians and public servants that operate within it.

I also confess to being confused as to what you mean by "the Irish abroad bring a link to this world outside the little island of Ireland that defines the nation as much as its irishness in itself" - because I don't see any useful link between what the rest of the world perceives (often incorrectly) to be "Irish" and what's relevant at election time in Ireland.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

-Ireland claims to be a state representing the 32 counties. (the name of the country is plainly "Ireland" not "Republic of Ireland", amasadors abroad are the "Ambasador of Ireland", embassys "Embassy of Ireland" the president is "President of Ireland" etc. )
Yet almost two facedly, those in the 6 counties have NO representation despite living in "Ireland". One of the ways of introducing voting privileges to non resident citizens that other countries use, is to have a small number of seats specially for those abroad. If this was brought in, Irish in the 6 counties for the FIRST TIME would have a stake in the nation claiming to represent them, and the Irish abroad would be also represented.

I'm a little confused - your argument seems to boil down to "Ireland the island includes the six counties of Northern Ireland, whereas Ireland the state does not". Am I right in understanding this? Because if so, we're probably just going to end up with another thread where People Argue About The North.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

- you may already have paid PRSI stamps - youre owed money from the government at some stage as a pension and you'd like to vote on which fecker is managing it.

That's the stuff

I can't see why anyone would disagree with that.

Xiney · 27-11-2010 1:08pm

The reason the status quo continues to exist in Ireland is because anyone with any ounce of optimism or ambition or simple dissatisfaction with the current system leaves.

I don't think anyone with an Irish passport should be allowed to vote. But I think if you were resident in the state for 3 out of the last 5 years, you should be eligible to vote.

avalon68 · 29-11-2010 1:30am

Fysh wrote: »

To put it bluntly, you're not living there or contributing to the economy. They may not seem fair reasons, but they're accurate.

Well....technically, if I was still in Ireland I'd be on the dole, so by moving over here and working, I'm no longer a financial burden on the state......thus contributing to the economy

ztoical · 30-11-2010 2:57pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

-Ireland claims to be a state representing the 32 counties. (the name of the country is plainly "Ireland" not "Republic of Ireland", amasadors abroad are the "Ambasador of Ireland", embassys "Embassy of Ireland" the president is "President of Ireland" etc. )
Yet almost two facedly, those in the 6 counties have NO representation despite living in "Ireland". One of the ways of introducing voting privileges to non resident citizens that other countries use, is to have a small number of seats specially for those abroad. If this was brought in, Irish in the 6 counties for the FIRST TIME would have a stake in the nation claiming to represent them, and the Irish abroad would be also represented.

Ireland does not claim to represent the 32 counties. The name of the country is officially Ireland for documents written in English and Éire for documents written in Irish and is made up of the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland so there is no issue with terms like "Ambasador of Ireland" etc. We removed our claim to Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday agreement.

Yes it's a pain not to be able to vote in your own country but we need to change how we issue passports as the numbers of people who've set foot in this country who have claimed passports is what creates the issue with Irish people voting overseas. I've cousins in the states who've all got Irish passports yet they've never been to Ireland and no nothing about the politics here. In order to vote overseas there needs to be a combination of passport and residency in the country for x number of years.

Emmigrants, and the vote, or lack of it.

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