Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Illegitimate Children?

Options
  • 31-10-2010 7:08pm
    #1
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭


    I have a question that has crossed my mind recently. According to Church teachings a child born outside marriage is considered illegitimate and was known as a "bastard child" when times were far more conservative years ago. Such children were considered outcasts and the women shunned by society and often worse condemned to reformatory laundries where they were kept as basically slaves. This happened to women who were caught having sex outside marriage.

    My question is; was a child conceived outside marriage but born after marriage (Mother married while pregnant) still considered illegitimate or was church position all rosy once the woman had married?

    What positions are taken today in relation to all this outdated nonsense?


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    I think the whole notion of illegitimicy was a matter of State law and matters of inheritance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_%28law%29


  • Options
    #3
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    And secular states had as a harsh view of non-optimum members of society, with legalisative sterilisation regimes being enforced for mothers deemed to have characteristics less than viable. According to Burleigh's "Death and Deliverence" the Church was an opponent of this policy.


  • Options
    #4
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    There is no such thing as an Illegitimate child in the Catholic church.


  • Options
    #5
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    alex73 wrote: »
    There is no such thing as an Illegitimate child in the Catholic church.

    Perhaps not nowadays but there were years ago where it was considered a great sin and offense to have a child out of wedlock. Such children should they die at birth were not even allowed to be buried on consecrated ground but rather unceremoniously dumped in what was known as a "Cillin" (kilean).


  • Options
    #6
    ArtSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    Stinicker wrote: »

    My question is; was a child conceived outside marriage but born after marriage (Mother married while pregnant) still considered illegitimate or was church position all rosy once the woman had married?

    where do you think the notion of 'shotgun' weddings came from? :D

    What positions are taken today in relation to all this outdated nonsense?
    I do know a couple pressurised into marriage by the local priest back in the day.
    I doubt very very much they'd get away with that today - or even be likely to try, or want to try.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Jester Minute
    Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭Jester Minute


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Perhaps not nowadays but there were years ago where it was considered a great sin and offense to have a child out of wedlock. Such children should they die at birth were not even allowed to be buried on consecrated ground but rather unceremoniously dumped in what was known as a "Cillin" (kilean).
    Are u sure that wasn't for unbaptised babies? Surely an illegitimate child would be baptised?


  • Options
    #8
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    ArtSmart wrote: »
    I do know a couple pressurised into marriage by the local priest back in the day.
    I doubt very very much they'd get away with that today - or even be likely to try, or want to try.

    In RC marriage both partners are interviewed separately to rule out any question of pressure. The church would consider out of wedlock pregnency as a reason to wait and not rush into the lifetime commitment of marriage for the wrong reasons.
    One mistake is not fixed by another mistake.

    Many catholics in their ignorance however may well have pressurised their pregnant daughters to marry in haste, or sent them abroad out of shame. Lack of catechesis in the general population has always been a problem and still is.


  • Options
    #9
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    I think the whole notion of illegitimicy was a matter of State law and matters of inheritance.
    Manach wrote: »
    And secular states had as a harsh view of non-optimum members of society [...] the Church was an opponent of this policy.
    alex73 wrote: »
    There is no such thing as an Illegitimate child in the Catholic church.
    In Kerry, back in the mid-1960's a female relative of mine became pregnant (contraception was unavailable) and was pressured by family and religious authorities to hand the child over to a "catholic" adoption agency. The birth was hushed up and the child was taken away to an unknown family in the USA, which -- the relative was assured -- was religiously compatible. Nobody knows whether the child is alive or dead and the relative concerned, together with some of her siblings, have suffered quite unpleasantly from guilt for the last 45 years.

    The state, so far as I am aware, took no interest in this sad event which seems, in many respects, little different from a kidnapping.
    Stinicker wrote: »
    What positions are taken today in relation to all this outdated nonsense?
    With something like 40% of births now occurring to parents who are not married to each other, and with the church's reputation in the area of child care not quite what it once was, there's little or no public social stigma attached to kids having unmarried parents -- though I'm sure there's still a reasonable level of private stigma.


  • Options
    #10
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    As I already said... There is/was/were never was such thing as an Illegitimate child in the Catholic church.


  • Options
    #11
    Dewdropdeb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 121 ✭✭Dewdropdeb


    alex73 wrote: »
    As I already said... There is/was/were never was such thing as an Illegitimate child in the Catholic church.

    ^^ That.

    "While the Church cannot approve the circumstance of their birth since the children have already come into being, the Church must be concerned about their spiritual and material welfare."

    I suppose it's similar to a child conceived of rape and the church not approving of abortion as a viable option. A child is not responsible for the sin(s) of his/her parents. Each human life, irregardless of how that life came into being, is a unique and dignified being and should be seen as such.

    Some of the stories mentioned here and those of common knowledge - such as the Magdalen Laundries - are absolutely heartbreaking, but as someone else suggested, I suspect it came more from a poor understanding of the catechism, both on a secular and clerical level, than of true church teaching.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    ZAMMY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭ZAMMY


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I have a question that has crossed my mind recently. According to Church teachings a child born outside marriage is considered illegitimate and was known as a "bastard child" when times were far more conservative years ago. Such children were considered outcasts and the women shunned by society and often worse condemned to reformatory laundries where they were kept as basically slaves. This happened to women who were caught having sex outside marriage.

    My question is; was a child conceived outside marriage but born after marriage (Mother married while pregnant) still considered illegitimate or was church position all rosy once the woman had married?

    What positions are taken today in relation to all this outdated nonsense?

    I'm currently working on my family tree and last night, while going through some Church Records with an elderly priest, I noticed the word "Illegitimate" written in after one child's baptism record. The record was from 1896.

    I asked the Priest if a child born 2 or 3 months after their parents had married (i.e. if the woman was pregnant at time of marriage) would be written down as illegitimate. He told me that they absolutely wouldn't be. Only a child born outside of wedlock would be considered illegitimate.

    He also told me they no longer note in their records if a child is illegitimate.


  • Options
    #13
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    ZAMMY wrote: »
    I'm currently working on my family tree and last night, while going through some Church Records with an elderly priest, I noticed the word "Illegitimate" written in after one child's baptism record. The record was from 1896.

    I asked the Priest if a child born 2 or 3 months after their parents had married (i.e. if the woman was pregnant at time of marriage) would be written down as illegitimate. He told me that they absolutely wouldn't be. Only a child born outside of wedlock would be considered illegitimate.

    He also told me they no longer note in their records if a child is illegitimate.
    I think it was/is not a matter of any church's rules, but of State classification. The concept of 'bastard' child is an ancient one, not confined to Christianity of any type.

    I take it any child born outside marriage is automatically legitimated if the parents marry - so that applies to those conceived outside marriage but whose parents then marry. If anyone knows to the different, I'd like to know.

    For myself, I can say I was born outside of marriage and registered so. When my folks later married they were able to have the birth certificate amended.

    _________________________________________________________________
    Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Advertisement