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12-08-2010, 10:36   #1
foggy_lad
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Private busses clamp down on free passes?

last night on the jj kavanaghs 11.15pm waterford bus the driver was getting photo I'd from most people with travel passes! I think this should be a condition of travel on all services as I have all to often seen people getting on with their free ticket written out expecting to travel without even showing a travel pass!

Then two "lads" one with a travel pass, got on in naas and he was asked to pay but refused stating his dole receipt or some other bit of paper was identification enough and went down the back of the bus, the driver left him and pulled up at the garda station but apparently was told by the guards to take the two lads!

Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?

Last edited by foggy_lad; 12-08-2010 at 11:38.
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12-08-2010, 10:48   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foggy_lad View Post
Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?
I thought all passes had photo's on them? Any OAP ones I've seen people show on DB do anyway, as do the blue ones (social welfare ones I thinking judging by the usual holders)
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12-08-2010, 11:19   #3
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I thought all passes had photo's on them? Any OAP ones I've seen people show on DB do anyway, as do the blue ones (social welfare ones I thinking judging by the usual holders)
No, when someone first gets a free travel pass from the HSE it contains no photo, only name and PPS number and instructions on where to get photo pass, it is up to the individual to go to the DB head office on O'Connel St and get a photo ID card.
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12-08-2010, 11:28   #4
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you only need a CIE photopass if you live in certain areas
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In addition, if you live in Dublin, Cork city, Waterford city, Limerick city or Galway city you must also produce a Free Travel Photo ID, which you can get from CIE offices for free. You should obtain this photopass within one month of receiving your Travel Pass.

You and your accompanying spouse or partner may also need to produce evidence of identity, by providing a sample of your signature(s) to the officials mentioned above.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publication...yidentity.aspx

here is more info on the scheme http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/Fre...x#Information1

i just thought that private operators at least should be allowed insist on seeing a driving license or passport as those photo passes can be got very easily, you have a travel pass and report it lost and apply for a new one so i then go to CIE with the new pass and the voucher for the photo id and all i need to do is bring a proof oy address from the original pass holder. nowhere in the scheme is actual photo id sought by any department or arm of the state leaving the whole scheme open to fraud and corruption!

and WTF is tha bolded part about? evidence of identity can be an example of your signiture???

Last edited by foggy_lad; 12-08-2010 at 11:36.
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12-08-2010, 11:31   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foggy_lad View Post
Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?
Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.
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12-08-2010, 12:23   #6
foggy_lad
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Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.
i thought they had to accept free travel passes as part of their licences for certain routes?
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12-08-2010, 13:05   #7
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i thought they had to accept free travel passes as part of their licences for certain routes?
No they're not. They can apply to join the free travel scheme, but are not obliged to do so, unless there is a public service obligation element to the service.
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12-08-2010, 13:40   #8
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I am trying to figure out why the driver allowed the lads to travel last night after speaking to guards in naas? Would the guards have told him to take them? I doubt there is any public service obligation to the Dublin-waterford route as it is covered already by bus eireann.
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12-08-2010, 14:48   #9
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Maybe JJ Kavanagh are a voluntary member of the scheme - as I said above there is no obligation to be a member.
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12-08-2010, 14:50   #10
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The guards can ask and not tell. I had two lads removed from a train at 8in the morning for being drunk and causing a nuisance. Guard talked to them and asked me were they alright to continue onwards, my reply..no. So the bus driver probably felt intimidated having to deal with the guards and forgot he had the right to refuse access admittance
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12-08-2010, 18:50   #11
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Posted by KC61:
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Maybe JJ Kavanagh are a voluntary member of the scheme - as I said above there is no obligation to be a member.
This may well be a "first-instance" of recognition that the DSP Free Travel Scheme is in DEEP distress.

This particular instance may well also have something to do with the particular company`s trading status and the increased requirement to collect actual revenue for services provided rather than the notional system in effect with the DSP.

Most,if not all,participants in the DSP Free Travel scheme will negotiate a rate based upon various arcane formulae or in very few cases actual journey statistics.

I would be prepared to speculate that the DSP has reduced or is refusing to renogotiate upwards on its current arrangements to fund the Public Transport needs of its "customers".

What very few realize is that Free Travel is a misnomer as,in reality,it is anything but Free.
In it`s original form it was an easily managed and administered scheme with only a single annual financial transaction required between the DSW (as it was) and CIE.

The actual divvying out of the Free Travel Scheme funds was then an internal CIE matter.
The initial breakup of CIE in 1987 and the requirement for 3 seperate sets of accounts brought with it a new awareness of the extent of the Scheme Benefits....and costs.

It was the late Michael McDonnell as Chairman of the CIE group who first spotted the worrying capability for the "nod and wink" Free Travel situation to develop into a very large black financial hole for the companies.

Iarnrod Eireann were thus the first of the CIE companies to introduce a requirement to accquire an actual travel ticket upon presentation of one`s Free Pass which then allowed the company to harvest (very) accurate data on its useage patterns.

Both of the Bus Companies however have lagged far behind,for a number of reasons,primarily the reluctance of the Dept of Social Welfare/Protection to agree to a new format digitized pass which would reduce the level of fraud/misuse simultaneously increasing the available travel pattern data.

It also needs to be borne in mind that whilst new Operators such as Luas and Aircoach came on line and others also began to voluntarily enter the Free Travel scheme the total amount of funding has not increased in comparison to the customer base.

Also of significance is the Northern Ireland Offices refusal to entertain this lump-sum approach to the extension of the scheme to a 32 county one.
The NIO/Translink insisted upon the Republic`s customers embracing the NI fully digitized Concessionary Senior Smartpass thus allowing them to seek prompt payment based upon instant and accurate user data,a feature still not available darn sarff

With the Total Free Travel Funding remaining static but the numbers availing of it,increasing,there can only be one outcome unless somebody gets-a-grip.

The actual figure disbursed in Free Travel Scheme payments can be very difficult to ascertain as the Department and the CIE group tend to muddy the waters somewhat with various alocations to PSO contracts etc.

The main problem now for ALL operators is the large increase in Pass Holders,many of whom now have far more time available to spend "Free" travelling.

The main problem for the Department and those actually funding the scheme (Taxpayers) is the amount of Free Travel Scheme beneficiaries who have accquired Passes on the back of another allowance whilst having little or no Social Welfare contribution history.

Any attempt to promote a debate on the Free Travel Scheme issue is usually blown out of the water by first mention of the Old Age Pension Pass,which although a significant proportion of the Free Travel Scheme is now but only one of a number of subsectors who can avail of its benefits.

Perhaps JJ Kavanaghs Driver may have been overzealous or perhaps from a different ethnic background which has far less tolerance of nodding & winking to our own,but I reckon we shall be seeing and hearing a lot more on this particular topic

Last edited by AlekSmart; 12-08-2010 at 18:52.
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12-08-2010, 19:00   #12
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as of June 1st I understand the department had paid for nothing incurred in 2010. A photo id medical card would do it, if you are entitled to free travel you are also entitled to a free medical card I believe.
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12-08-2010, 19:50   #13
foggy_lad
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@ AlexSmart the increase in numbers of free travel passes can be mostly atributed to fraudulant passes imo and asking/insisting on seeing a proper photo id instead of the CIE photo id is all that is required to clamp down on fraudulant passes
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12-08-2010, 19:54   #14
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he was asked to pay but refused stating his dole receipt or some other bit of paper was identification enough and went down the back of the bus, the driver left him and pulled up at the garda station but apparently was told by the guards to take the two lads!
Right to refuse admission is pointless if someone boards, refuses to leave and there is no avenue to enforce the trespass. Do the Transport Acts give more power to CIE to compel garda assistance than the legislation enabling private operators, perhaps?
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12-08-2010, 20:04   #15
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I'm often on one of the 'seventies' buses into town and every second person produces the free travel pass. I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

I was once on a Bus Eireann bus and the driver refused to let on a couple because he said the passes weren't legit. I suppose it's too much hassle for Dublin Bus drivers to do the same stop after stop.
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