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Article: New Tolls on National Roads?

  • 23-07-2010 11:16am
    #1
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭


    According to a report in today's Irish Times, the cabinet has approved a set of cost-cutting and tax-raising proposals worth around €500 million per year.

    The tax-raising proposals include the introduction of tolls on national routes, the introduction of handling charges for people who don't pay their road tax online, and the scrapping of off-road declaration exemptions from road tax:
    The measures, contained in a report by the Local Government Efficiency Review Group, and approved by the Cabinet at its meeting in Farmleigh on Wednesday, will be published today.

    The group is informally called An Bord Snip Eile and is chaired by Pat McLoughlin, the former Health Service Executive (HSE) deputy chief executive and now chief executive of the Irish Payment Services Organisation. In all, it has made 106 recommendations totalling €511 million in efficiencies.

    The group has also recommended that tolling charges be extended from motorways to national roads. It has argued this would be consistent with Government policy on the environment by incentivising road users to use other transport. It would also allow a stream of revenue for local councils to invest in local roads.

    While the group has said the distribution of the tolling booths should be equitable, placing them on national roads as well as motorways would be seen as controversial and politically unpopular. The report has also suggested that a handling fee be introduced for processing motor tax payments that are made in person or by post rather than online. This, the report concluded, would recognise the much higher staff costs of manual processing.

    It has also called for an end to the “off-the-road” facility in respect of motor tax, which allows car owners to self-declare vehicles as not in use.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0723/1224275297847.html

    I'm not totally against the idea of handling charges for people who don't pay their road tax online, although I think there should be exemptions and reductions for pensioners etc.

    The introduction of tolls on national routes is going to be very unpopular. Which national routes are going to be targeted?

    Most of them are nowhere near a high-enough standard to justify the payment of even modest tolls, and most of them have so many access points that toll-dodging would be relatively easy.

    The only national route where I can see tolls being easy enough to implement in practice is the N18 between Limerick and the start of the M18 (close to junction with N19).

    Presumably this also means an end to the toll-free status of the M9, and the introduction of tolls on some motorway section(s) of the N/M11.

    Quite frankly, it's a daft idea, ill-thought out with little or no thought given to the likely consequences and the practical difficulties of implementation.
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Well they're just recommendations so far. It also looks like the proposals are aimed at generating cash for local governments. Given that I'm told many TDs view local governments as parasites and given how politically unpopular the move to tolling existing national infrastructure would be, my money's on it not happening.


  • #3
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Stark wrote: »
    Well they're just recommendations so far. It also looks like the proposals are aimed at generating cash for local governments. Given that I'm told many TDs view local governments as parasites and given how politically unpopular the move to tolling existing national infrastructure would be, my money's on it not happening.

    According to the report, the recommendations have been approved by the cabinet for implementation.

    The report's headline is:
    Cabinet approves more road tolls in €500m cost-saving plan


  • #4
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The only sections of non-motorway routes that can realistically be tolled in the conventional sense are... short stretches of HQDC?

    I think what they might have in mind is something rather different to conventional tolling, such as a levy imposed per car on the basis of mileage done per year. Granted, plazas might be placed on the M18, M9 and M11; but honestly, where else could they go (bar, maybe, the Cork South Ring Road)?


  • #5
    Son of Stupido
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Son of Stupido


    If they want to get more tolls then they need a fairer system, such as tolling per km, as is the case in Italy, for example.

    It would mean toll booths at every exit, so quite a bit of redesign, but it is the fairer system.

    At least people pay for what they drive, and the government can set the price.

    Problem is nobody has the balls to implement such a change!


  • #6
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Furet wrote: »
    The only sections of non-motorway routes that can realistically be tolled in the conventional sense are... short stretches of HQDC?

    I think what they might have in mind is something rather different to conventional tolling, such as a levy imposed per car on the basis of mileage done per year.

    Surely that's already catered for by taxes on fuel? The more you drive, the less fuel-efficiently you drive, the more fuel you use and the more tax you pay.

    If they're going to introduce a Dutch-style system, it'll effectively mean that all roads are tolled, not to mention the privacy implications....
    Furet wrote: »
    Granted, plazas might be placed on the M18, M9 and M11; but honestly, where else could they go (bar, maybe, the Cork South Ring Road)?

    The only way they could toll the Cork SRR is to have barrier-free tolling like on the M50. If there was a physical toll plaza, the traffic congestion would be a nightmare. Any revenue from an SRR toll should be ringfenced to get rid of the Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road roundabouts, to add an extra traffic lane from the Lee Tunnel all the way to the junction with Sarsfield Road, plus junction improvements in the vicinity of the Mahon Point Shopping Centre.


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  • #7
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Son of Stupido wrote: »
    If they want to get more tolls then they need a fairer system, such as tolling per km, as is the case in Italy, for example.

    It would mean toll booths at every exit, so quite a bit of redesign, but it is the fairer system.

    At least people pay for what they drive, and the government can set the price.

    Problem is nobody has the balls to implement such a change!


    Having toll booths at every exit would probably cost more money than it would make in terms of the personnel needed to man those booths. If we had barrier free tolling everywhere like we had on the M50, then it might be feasible.


  • #8
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,603 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Anyone missing an important point

    It is illegal to toll a route already purchased with EU money

    Not that it stopped them doing it to Watergrasshill

    I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable


  • #9
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    veryangryman wrote: »

    I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

    Supposedly 6billion text messages sent a year in Ireland. 1c tax would net the gov 60million euro. almost as effective as the tax on second homes and you wouldn't have to chase people to get it as it's automatically on the bill.


  • #10
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    I'be mentioned several times that more routes will end up being tolled. The ones certain of that are: The M7 at Nenagh, The M9, M18 possibly on the the Gort-Tuam scheme as anywhere closer will be too near the tunnel toll. N25 possibly as there is a large amount of traffic on it at Cork it will need to be Barrier free though.


  • #11
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    veryangryman wrote: »
    Anyone missing an important point
    I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

    Agreed. It also counts as a usage charge.

    Realistically apart from the motorway network it simply isn't possible to barrier toll the current national network. There are too many alternative routes around any possible toll locations. There would be large costs and disruption involved with the building of the plazas. There would be all sort of charges of political bias in the locations and the negative publicity would be a public relations disaster for an already unpopular government.

    Expect to see the M9 tolled though, probably at both ends as per the M3 and probably somewhere on the M18 as well.

    Does anybody know if the governemnt can take a slice of the toll money currently collected or is there some way they can add an extra levy on the PPP companies who run the tolls? If they can do that then those companies can then pass on the charge to the motorist in the form of higher tolls. If this is possible then expect all the tolls to increase sometime in the near future.


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  • #12
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    The AA are on the case:
    Dear XXX–


    Thanks for your email. I have to say this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. The notion of peppering the N-road network with tolls is absolutely ridiculous. I can’t say it strongly enough.


    Even if we accept that they want to raise more money from motorists (which is the only purpose here) there are much more efficient ways of doing so. An extra cent per litre on petrol and diesel would raise more money for the exchequer than tolling the N-roads.


    Your road safety point is also valid, and strengthens the case against this ridiculous idea.


    The AA takes the view that this proposal has to be stopped in its tracks, immediately, and we are going to work very hard with the support of Irish motorists to do just that.


    Regards,


    Conor Faughnan

    Director of Policy

    Thanks to Super_Sonic on the Motors forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67073763&postcount=34


  • #13
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    While the group has said the distribution of the tolling booths should be equitable, placing them on national roads as well as motorways would be seen as controversial and politically unpopular.


    I'd add a few more rather unkind adjectives to that list.

    This is an underthought reactionary idea that just won't work.

    Did anyone stop for even 5 seconds to think about how much it would cost to implement, to run, to maintain. How will toll dodging be stopped? How much traffic uses the routes they are going to toll? And how on Earth is it going to incentivise people to use "other transport"? If by "other transport" they mean guzzling more petrol taking their cars on far more circuitous routes to avoid the toll, then perhaps.


  • #14
    marathont
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭marathont


    Would it not be easier to put a few pence on fuel ?


  • #15
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

    There is nothing remotely acceptable about a tax on texts, which would be luddite proposal only found in the most backward of third world regimes. It was a complete disgrace that anyone suggested this. VAT is payable on mobile phone services and that should be that.

    I doubt this toll proposal. With prices in NI as they are 10c could easily be added to diesel and a few cents on petrol.

    The only tolls I see might be one around Newbridge to fund the widening of the M7 to 3 lanes.

    A more useful charge would be a Singapore style charge in Dublin or other city centres. or make the M50 toll variable by time of day.

    And of course all of this gymnastics is to ensure that even the biggest mansion won't have to pay a property tax.


  • #16
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Interview on RTE here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0723/economy_av.html


  • #17
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Tolling N roads will not work for a number of reasons and I doubt it will happen. Tolls on all motorways is fair enough though, imo, so they should put barrier free tolls on M9 and M18 anyway and the M2 also. I cant understand why they didnt install barrier free tolls on the M3 when they were building it. The technology is obviously available and Im sure it would have been cheaper then building the toll booths, with there big steel and concrete structures - two extremely expensive building materials, plus the extra cost of the plaza - more lanes so bigger land take, more road pavement, surface, etc. And then theres the cost of the people in the booths.

    The M50 is the most profitable road in the country and accounts for the vast majority of income from tolls every year (€96.5 million in 2009!). But with only one toll there must be a huge number of vehicles that use it every day but do not pay the toll. Why not introduce a second barrier free toll. Relax before you lose it and just hear me out. The second toll could be at junction 9 (with the N7). With the system they have in place (most of it done by computer) surely it would be too difficult to set it that you only get charged for one toll if you pass through both within say half an hour. So you would still pay the same €3 you currently pay even if you pass through both. But also a lot of people who currently pay nothing will have to pay €3 as well. Alternatiely, if that doesnt work, introduce two tolls but make both of them to €1.50 so you would still pay €3 for passing both tolls but more people would be contributing. What do people think?


  • #18
    Danno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    What money was wasted in preparing this shyte report?


  • #19
    amen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    considering we already pay road tax why should we now pay for access to roads we already pay to use?


  • #20
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    What money was wasted in preparing this shyte report?

    The report has some useful stuff on amalgamating local authorities. Instead of people talking about these sensible ideas there they've also included this off the wall stuff. McCarthy was careful to only have doable things in his report, some of these may not suit politically, but all made some sense. These guys obviously have no sense.


  • #21
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    This has to be one of the dumbest ideas from Fianna FAIL yet... even the existing tolls are a fairly dubious means of collecting money from taxpayers to finance projects (M50 toll is ridiculously inefficient - so much money spent on operating it), and tolling existing ordinary roads is hideously inefficient compared to just extra taxation. Taxing fuel is even better than a tax on road usage, as it taxation is related to consumption and in general, vehicles consuming more, are either travelling more or causing more wear to roads.

    I am against taxing motorists more, but we probably have to live with it given the circumstances. This toll plan however is absolutely unacceptable.


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  • #22
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    veryangryman wrote: »
    I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

    Why a tax on texts instead of phone calls? :confused:

    What about those who need to text cos they're not able to talk/hear through a phone?


  • #23
    popebenny16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    tolls on NPR's are such an off the wall notion that it is an obvious stalking horse for something else they have planned.

    how could a toll on the N62 work, for example? one between every town? Sure go back to the 1700's build a wall on each town boundary and charge there? nuts. :rolleyes:


  • #24
    Stonewolf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Stonewolf


    ardmacha wrote: »
    The report has some useful stuff on amalgamating local authorities. Instead of people talking about these sensible ideas there they've also included this off the wall stuff. McCarthy was careful to only have doable things in his report, some of these may not suit politically, but all made some sense. These guys obviously have no sense.

    Maybe it's a tactic, in order to ensure the good stuff gets passed they included all sorts of rubbish so the politicians could say they made some decisions.


  • #25
    Danno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    If they load on any more tax on motoring, it will become more attractive to sit at home on the dole than drive to work as people will have more money left in their pocket at the end of the week.


  • #26
    heyjude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭heyjude


    This has all the hallmarks of a kite flying exercise, throw out a few crazy ideas for new tax raising ideas to the media, don't deny they are seriously being considered and then announce you've reconsidered and hit the old reliables again.

    However, taken on face value, if tolling national roads is being considered, then it totally destroys the governments' long held defence for the introduction of tolls on our road network, namely that they are being built by public private partnerships and the tolls fund the costs of building these roads or in the case of the M50, paying off the cost of buying out the owners of the toll booths. The national road network was built over many decades though, using money from the exchequer and in many cases, EU grant aid, so how can they justify, using their existing argument, introducing tolls of roads that have had no private involvement in funding their construction and which have in most cases being in existence for many years.
    veryangryman wrote: »
    Anyone missing an important point

    It is illegal to toll a route already purchased with EU money

    Hopefully this is true and the EU stop them, though I wouldn't bet on it. As I recall Vehicle Registration Tax was also against EU law, but the legal process is so slow, that they can get away with things for years, even if the EU seeks to stop them.
    veryangryman wrote: »
    I think the 1c text tax would be far more lucrative, easy to implement and above all, acceptable

    Lucrative yes, easy to implement(not too sure, would it apply to visitors or only to Irish registered phones ? ), as for acceptable, well yes I can see how the government might see it that way. They have several thousand owners of second homes(age profile - mainly middle aged and older that aren't too happy paying tax on their second home) and you have billions of text messages each year, the majority sent by those under 30(an age group that historically vote in lower numbers), so you divert the tax from older voters to younger non-voters and children :rolleyes: Is levying taxes on children(under 18s) preferable ?

    There was also speculation in the newspapers that among the other measures being considered is a doubling of the prescription charge for medical card holders from 50c to 1 Euro per prescription, which if implemented would represent a 100% increase or doubling of the fee, just a year after it was introduced. I'd be watchful that any toll charges on national roads or a text message tax would similarly be introduced at a low rate and once introduced, then be rapidly increased. So a 50c toll charge would become a 1 Euro charge in just a couple of years, while a 1c text tax would quickly become 5c.

    Also, exactly how does introducing dozens/hundreds of extra road tolls throughout the country, fit in with a supposed policy of improving our national competitiveness ? Surely making it more expensive to move goods/people around the country is the opposite of what we need.


  • #27
    highlydebased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    How many million would it cost to build toll plazas, staff and manage them? Before they even start turning a profit......madness.


  • #28
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Neon-Circles wrote: »
    How many million would it cost to build toll plazas, staff and manage them? Before they even start turning a profit......madness.

    cui bono?

    Roaches?
    westlink


  • #29
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Irish Times online have a poll on the proposal - weirdly it is currently 57% support at the moment. Even though some past polls have clearly shown the prevailing bias of Irish Times readership rather than general population, in this instance I have to suspect that something is amiss. Perhaps someone is gaming it for some reason?


  • #30
    JayeL
    Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    Surely a 5c tax on a litre of fuel would be a more equitable and stable form of getting more revenue?

    People will just start avoiding all this shiny new infrastructure we needed years ago.

    Besides, our petrol and diesel is on the cheaper side of the EU average so there's scope for a rise.


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  • #31
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,565 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    heyjude wrote: »
    As I recall Vehicle Registration Tax was also against EU law, but the legal process is so slow, that they can get away with things for years, even if the EU seeks to stop them.

    You recall wrong.

    Many EU countries have identical taxes to VRT, its not just us, and its ENTIRELY legal.


  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,720 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Motor tax, not road tax.


  • #33
    Danno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    JayeL wrote: »
    Besides, our petrol and diesel is on the cheaper side of the EU average so there's scope for a rise.

    Kill one last competitive strand we have? We have feck all alternative in the country to go to work... why make it more expensive?


  • #34
    JayeL
    Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    People would give out about the price of fuel but still pay because they need to get around. But tolling roads would not affect everyone and lead to people going through towns and routes that were bypassed with good reason.


  • #35
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Tolling only works on limited-access routes like motorways. Doing it on normal roads is a logistical nightmare:

    1) On the Irish network, which is very dense, they are too easy to get around. There will always be another way to go or a way to dodge the toll.

    2) Access. There is private housing on almost every non-motorway route in the country, thanks to our rather lax planning controls. People living in these houses need a way out of them and shouldn't be hit with tolls just to get in and out of their home.

    3) For reasons related to 2) it is very politically unpalatable.

    It won't happen. Most you will possibly see is tolls on existing free motorways (yes, they do exist - the M2, M9, M11, M18, and M20 are all free). Consideration should possibly be given to one of the TWO motorways going to Waterford (M9/M11) being tolled, for instance.


  • #36
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    icdg wrote: »
    2) Access. There is private housing on almost every non-motorway route in the country, thanks to our rather lax planning controls. People living in these houses need a way out of them and shouldn't be hit with tolls just to get in and out of their home.

    I beg to differ. Screw the feckers in the one off houses :)


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  • #37
    ICE HOUSE
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭ICE HOUSE


    The whole idea of it just sickens me. Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax, Tax this, Tax that....... when is it going to stop??:mad::mad::mad:
    This will mostly effect those already who are Taxed out of living in the cities where they work like Dublin for example and have no alternative but to commute from outside the city daily and use these roads to get to work. Now they want to Tax these roads.......Jesus.
    Its just disgusting whats been allowed go on in this country.


  • #38
    steve-o
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭steve-o


    heyjude wrote: »
    This has all the hallmarks of a kite flying exercise, throw out a few crazy ideas for new tax raising ideas to the media, don't deny they are seriously being considered and then announce you've reconsidered and hit the old reliables again.
    It reeks of it. And it's already working...
    marathont wrote: »
    Would it not be easier to put a few pence on fuel ?
    JayeL wrote: »
    Surely a 5c tax on a litre of fuel would be a more equitable and stable form of getting more revenue?

    Isn't it great how they can make a tax increase seem attractive?


  • #39
    JohnC.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    icdg wrote: »
    It won't happen. Most you will possibly see is tolls on existing free motorways (yes, they do exist - the M2, M9, M11, M18, and M20 are all free). Consideration should possibly be given to one of the TWO motorways going to Waterford (M9/M11) being tolled, for instance.

    M11 doesn't go to Waterford :confused: Unless you are using the Ryanair definition of going "to" a place being over 60KM away. You could be most of the way up the M9 before you even get to the start of the M11 from Waterford.


  • #40
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    Kahless wrote: »
    M11 doesn't go to Waterford :confused: Unless you are using the Ryanair definition of going "to" a place being over 60KM away. You could be most of the way up the M9 before you even get to the start of the M11 from Waterford.

    yep totally agree

    http://www.aaireland.ie/routes_beta/

    Enniscorthy (M11) is 59.71 KM from Waterford - 56 Minutes away

    Cahir (M8) is 65KM from Waterford - 1Hour 6 Minutes away

    so if people are assuming that the M11 serves waterford then surely they must also agree that the M8 serves Waterford too - after all there is just over 5 KM difference between the two routes???????????


    this also screams of this old classic when asking for directions in Ireland "I wouldn't start from here if I was you, I'd go about 60 Km down the road then start my journey from there"


  • #41
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Dublin - Enniscorthy : 120km
    Dublin - Cahir: 180km.

    The Cahir route involves going 60km out of your way.

    The total distance from Dublin - Waterford via Enniscorthy is 180km. The total distance using the M9 route is 165km so only 15km in the difference there. And of course that depends on what part of Dublin you're leaving from. For someone living in the south east of the city, the M11 route would be more attractive.

    By the way, if you were to use the warped reasoning above, you could say that Paulstown - Waterford is 60km, therefore the M9 doesn't serve Waterford either...


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  • #42
    JohnC.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    Stark wrote: »
    By the way, if you were to use the warped reasoning above, you could say that Paulstown - Waterford is 60km, therefore the M9 doesn't serve Waterford either...

    The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9. What a stupid comparison to make from someone who claims someone else is using warped reasoning. The M9 is right on the city's doorstep. The M11 is 60KM away by N road with lower speed limit and single lanes along the way. Like I said, you could be most of the way up the M9 in the hour it would take to get to the start of the M11.


  • #43
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Kahless wrote: »
    The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9. What a stupid comparison to make from someone who claims someone else is using warped reasoning. The M9 is right on the city's doorstep. The M11 is 60KM away by N road with lower speed limit and single lanes along the way. Like I said, you could be most of the way up the M9 in the hour it would take to get to the start of the M11.

    And you've just proved the argument about the M9 being a waste of money by duplicating resources. How mad is it that the choice to build a new build 120km length M-way was taken when the area could easily have been accomodated via shorter new build connections to pre-existing M-ways.

    Waterford could have been connected to Dublin via the M/N11. This alternative would have been significantly shorter in length to build then the M9 and also fulfilled strategic objectives of filling in the gaps on the M11 and delivered a bypass of Enniscorthy & brought M-way access closer to Rosslare super port.

    Instead the M11, like other important national routes, which weren't lucky to benefit from the political patronage of the Celtic Tiger years are in the NRA project planning wasteland whilst the high cost and low trafficed M9 & N25 Bypass stand as testaments of our terrible transport & planning policies of the Ahern years.


  • #44
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Kahless wrote: »
    The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9. What a stupid comparison to make from someone who claims someone else is using warped reasoning.

    Yes you do. Paulstown is between Dublin and Waterford along the M9, just as Enniscorthy is between Dublin and Waterford along the M11/N30/N25 route. Your argument seems to hinge purely on wanting a route that has the same road number on the whole of its length. If we're to follow that line of reasoning, then Waterford is 120km from Kilcullen, near the start of the M7. So it's nearer the M11 than it is the M7.
    Kahless wrote: »
    The M9 is right on the city's doorstep.

    So is the N25..
    Kahless wrote: »
    The M11 is 60KM away by N road with lower speed limit and single lanes along the way.

    The N25/N30 could have been upgraded and likely will be upgraded (Enniscorthy bypass/New Ross bypass) resulting in duplication of resources
    Kahless wrote: »
    Like I said, you could be most of the way up the M9 in the hour it would take to get to the start of the M11.

    And you're still about 110km from Dublin either way.

    Both routes are approximatley the same distance (within about 15km depending on what part of Dublin you're heading from/to), the only difference is the numbers on the signs change as you're driving along one route.


  • #45
    JayeL
    Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    Tolling the M2 would be a disaster; it's used by commuters from south Meath only who would simply clog up the R135 back 4 miles from the M50 as we did before the M2 was built. It's too easy to avoid - tolls only work when they're the only way.


  • #46
    JohnC.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    Stark wrote: »
    Yes you do. Paulstown is between Dublin and Waterford along the M9, just as Enniscorthy is between Dublin and Waterford along the M11/N30/N25 route. Your argument seems to hinge purely on wanting a route that has the same road number on the whole of its length. If we're to follow that line of reasoning, then Waterford is 120km from Kilcullen, near the start of the M7. So it's nearer the M11 than it is the M7.

    I'm not talking about numbers. I'm talking about a motorway versus non-motorway and the disadvantages that brings. You don't have to go to Paulstown to get on a motorway. I don't care if the motorway number changes every 100 meters in between, it's still a motorway versus 60km of non-motorway with lower speed and the potential to get stuck behind others.

    It's amazing you are actually claiming you have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9.
    "The obvious difference being that you don't have to go to Paulstown to get to the M9."
    "Yes you do."


  • #47
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Kahless wrote: »
    I'm not talking about numbers. I'm talking about a motorway versus non-motorway and the disadvantages that brings. You don't have to go to Paulstown to get on a motorway. I don't care if the motorway number changes every 100 meters in between, it's still a motorway versus 60km of non-motorway with lower speed and the potential to get stuck behind others.

    There was a choice. Build a motorway to the M7 or build a motorway to the M11. The M11 is nearer.


  • #48
    JohnC.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    M9 also covers Kilkenny and Carlow.

    M9 is 116km.

    Join Waterford to M11 takes 60km
    As I've seen proposed elsewhere, joining Kilkenny to N8 is another 25km
    Then Carlow...??? M7 is about 50km away. I suppose the plan is to just forget about that little inconvenience then. Otherwise there is no saving to make the M9 look like a bad idea.


  • #49
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    These will murder the motorist if they all go through:
    NEW TOLLS on Dublin’s M50, a second toll on the Dublin to Waterford motorway and a handful of tolls in the midlands and west are to be considered under Government plans to raise additional revenue from roads.

    While new tolls on national roads are being seen as long term and politically and practically difficult, a number of “obvious opportunities” have been mentioned by transport sources.

    These include extending barrier-free tolling to additional sections of the M50, and the installation of a second toll on the M9 Dublin to Waterford route.

    The M9 is to be the only one of the State’s inter-urban motorways that has just one toll – that on the Suir bridge close to Waterford city – when all the motorways are completed this year.

    Other possibilities include tolling stretches of the Limerick to Cork route, the Jack Lynch tunnel and a range of bypasses such as Youghal and Ballincollig in Co Cork. Others include parts of the N52 around Tullamore.

    The Gort to Tuam road in Galway, part of which is already under construction, is to be a tolled motorway and a new toll on the Limerick to Gort section is a possibility.

    A second toll on the N4, near Mullingar, would depend on major work at level crossings at the Downs near Mullingar, while significant additional land would be required to build a toll plaza on the Roosky/Dromod bypass.

    A Government source compared towns like Drogheda and Wicklow, commenting that while they were roughly equal in distance from Dublin, there were two tolls on the Drogheda route, on the M1 and at the Dublin Port Tunnel, but none on the Wicklow route. However, he said putting a toll on the M11/N11 to Wicklow would be extremely difficult, both politically and practically.

    But transport sources said the proposals that “leapt off the page” were the Waterford route and extending the toll area on the M50. “Road pricing” had been mentioned as a “demand management measure” as far back as the Platform For Change report, published in 2001.

    Currently, only vehicles that cross the West-Link bridges on the M50 are subject to a toll, but with the upgrade of the motorway between the airport and Sandyford and the construction of overhead gantries, extending barrier-free tolling is now possible.

    The move has the double benefit of including significant additional volumes of traffic without being either too practically or politically difficult, sources said.

    Extending the toll range from a single point where vehicles cross the bridge to all users of the M50 “could be seen as being more fair”.

    Similarly it was thought the absence of a toll on the M9 between Dublin and the Suir bridge was out of step with the State’s other inter-urban motorways, each of which will have two tolls.

    The working group that Minister for the Environment John Gormley has said he will set up to advise Government on implementation of revenue-raising measures is now expected to consider these options.

    The extension of the Republic’s network of tolls as a measure for generating additional income was proposed in the report of the local government efficiency review group, published last week.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0726/1224275468010.html

    I've never read such bs in my life. We are looking at going back to the days of turnpike yore in the 1700s by the looks of things. Tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel?? Fix Dunkettle first! The Tullamore and Youghal Bypasses?? Are they serious? A second toll on the N4 in addition to the fattest one in the state at Kilcock? Bah! And the most outrageous of them all - MORE M50 tolls! This is absolutely opportunistic and deserves to be thrown out absolutely. By all means, toll the M9 and the M18 somewhere south of Galway if they must PLUS one on the M11 - but Dromod Roosky and the Youghal Bypasses? Are they for real? And the Jack Lynch Tunnel? The EU threw that out in the 90s. Such unmitigated shight.


  • #50
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,565 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The M50 toll zone being extended a junction either side was suggested ages and ages ago, if anything I could see it being done...

    I can't see some of those suggestions ever returning the capex to set up the toll - Youghal Bypass for instance.


  • #51
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    MYOB wrote: »
    The M50 toll zone being extended a junction either side was suggested ages and ages ago, if anything I could see it being done...

    I can see why they would do it, but they really shouldn't. More instances of Dublin paying for the rest of the country. A tax on one-offs (per the number of cars that park there at night), which contribute to the disrepair of thousands of kilometres of L and R roads, would be more equitable and would also have the added advantage of educating people about how to live more sustainably. I think adding further M50 tolls would have to mean a reduction in the price per toll down to at least €1.60.


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