Shannon supplying water to Dublin?

Sponge Bob · 25-07-2010 11:02am

Well some of the pieces pimping the project mentioned that it would/could supply "9" counties that draw off the Liffey and Boyne today.

That could be the 4 Dublin authorities, Kildare Meath Offaly Westmean Laois.

Wicklow should be self sufficient.

I would refer you all to the similarly ambitious and much larger Poulaphuca project from the late 1930s which supplied much of Dublin and Kildare until now.

murphaph · 25-07-2010 11:27am

If certain counties in the Midlands don't want Dublin to have the water it needs, all social transfers to those counties from Greater Dublin should cease. Fair's fair.

Amtmann · 25-07-2010 11:39am

murphaph wrote: »

If certain counties in the Midlands don't want Dublin to have the water it needs, all social transfers to those counties from Greater Dublin should cease. Fair's fair.

Do you ever get the feeling that Ireland is just... broken? Will we ever shed ourselves of the GAA-jersey/béal bocht mentality? Someone said on another thread that there exists a "peasants' attitude" to infrastructure in this country. I believe that poster to be partially right. I blame the rurality of the country, and I say that as someone who is unfortunately based in the middle of Tipperary right now.

Sponge Bob · 25-07-2010 11:41am

To be honest only the Offaly people could stop this, the extraction and storage will largely be based there. Personally I don't think they will.

Any noise from further north is utterly irrelevant save if some dredging and deepening of the river channel is proposed.

dubhthach · 25-07-2010 12:14pm

Furet wrote: »

Do you ever get the feeling that Ireland is just... broken? Will we ever shed ourselves of the GAA-jersey/béal bocht mentality? Someone said on another thread that there exists a "peasants' attitude" to infrastructure in this country. I believe that poster to be partially right. I blame the rurality of the country, and I say that as someone who is unfortunately based in the middle of Tipperary right now.

Indeed, alot of these people are the ones crying when their houses get flooded and shout "Drain the Shannon", however I think they prefer that the water was drained into the ocean instead of by thirsty Dubliners.

Personally from a local goverment point of view I think counties should be abolished and replaced by provinces. It's kinda funny that Dublin corporation has an equivalent population within it's boundary as the whole of Connacht. Another good example of "GAA mentality" is the issue of Limerick and Waterford city boundaries.

Sponge Bob · 25-07-2010 12:52pm

This would be the optimal time to dredge the stretch between Athlone lock and Portumna lock and thence to the top of Lough Derg.

Once the extraction regime is in place you may be sure that Dublin Corporation will never allow the dredging of this stretch ever again, certainly never the stretch from Athlone to Meelick.

The mterial to be dredged is largely turf and can be deposited on a cutaway bog somewhere along that stretch.

murphaph · 25-07-2010 1:49pm

Furet wrote: »

Do you ever get the feeling that Ireland is just... broken?

Yup, everytime I read boards or speak with the mother on the phone and she informs me of the latest b0llox from the old sod.

It's broken largely because of the Irish mindset though. There's no other explanation..the brits are long gone, we've been in the "common market" for almost 40 years, had more investment from MNCs poured into it for decades yet still Ireland is...broken. So what can the problem be? Our politicians? nope, cos we elect them. Our electoral system? nope cos we can tell our politicians what we want and vote for ones who promise and deliver it. Our media? nope, open liberal media tends to report the scandals and corruption pretty well, certainly as well as elsewhere in Western Europe...people still vote for people openly associated with the scandals though.

So it's the people that are broken. Will we ever mature as a people? God knows but not anytime soon...sure people with 600k mortgages on 3 bed semis in Dublin STILL can't recognise that THEY played a part in the crash, and would rather blame the banks, or the regulator (who only get away with shoddy practices because the electorate don't punish lax government policies, in fact we have rewarded FF's reckless policies for years now!).

This Shannon Water Scheme wouldn't be an issue in Germany....

Problem:Loads of water and flooding in location A. Lots of thirsty people in location B.
Solution: Pipe.

Sponge Bob · 25-07-2010 2:13pm

It strikes me that a journalist seeking some class of 'balance' in their article had to go rather far up the Shannon to find a few yahoos, that is all

dowlingm · 26-07-2010 5:10am

It's not about the best solution, it's whose constituencies have which TDs in power says Mammy "working like blacks" O'Rourke. **** sake.

Aidan1 · 26-07-2010 9:36am

Do you ever get the feeling that Ireland is just... broken?

I'm with Spongebob - this is a classic case of a 'Silly Season Story Needs Balance' syndrome. An enterprising journalist is prepared to go to any lengths to try and stir up a story out of no where, by asking the most extreme personalities obvious questions, and reporting the most extreme answers. When the time comes, this will be a difficult planning process, sure, but if BNM and DCC do their work right, it won't be an issue.

As for the GAA jersey phenomenon, well, it exists, but there's nothing like a good period of economic scarcity to reinforce the concept of a 'national' problem. The only way of chipping away at it is through rational argument (and cutting satire) - increased population mobility and the growth of the urban will also be key players.

Boardmaster · 18-08-2010 12:30am

"This Shannon Water Scheme wouldn't be an issue in Germany....

Problem:Loads of water and flooding in location A. Lots of thirsty people in location B.
Solution: Pipe."

True and not true as in Germany they would just fix the leaking pipes first instead of digging a big trench across the country.

The Germans did build Ardnacrusha though.

oppenheimer1 · 18-08-2010 8:36am

Jayuu wrote: »

+1

The amount of wasted water is nothing short of a national scandal. Fixing and replacing outdated pipes would surely not only be a good way of creating employment but also be kinder to the environment. Fresh drinkable water is becomming an increasingly more scare and valuable resource. We should be acting now to preserve our supply. But no, our reaction is to throw more water at the problem.

Reminds me of when the Millennium Clock was put in the Liffey and you couldn't see it clearly because the river was too dirty. The suggested solution was to make the display brighter. Nobody ever suggested trying to make the river cleaner! :rolleyes:

The Liffey is that colour because it passes through bogland, not because it is polluted.

aDeener · 19-08-2010 12:00pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed, alot of these people are the ones crying when their houses get flooded and shout "Drain the Shannon", however I think they prefer that the water was drained into the ocean instead of by thirsty Dubliners.

Personally from a local goverment point of view I think counties should be abolished and replaced by provinces. It's kinda funny that Dublin corporation has an equivalent population within it's boundary as the whole of Connacht. Another good example of "GAA mentality" is the issue of Limerick and Waterford city boundaries.

:rolleyes:

liammur · 19-08-2010 6:25pm

Draining the shannon simply shouldn't be tolerated, half the water would probably leak and flood some village. Dublin is like a sponge draining the nation's resources, just fix the leaks in dublin and there won't be a problem.

L1011 · 19-08-2010 6:46pm

liammur wrote: »

Draining the shannon simply shouldn't be tolerated, half the water would probably leak and flood some village. Dublin is like a sponge draining the nation's resources, just fix the leaks in dublin and there won't be a problem.

Said "sponge" is providing the money to the rest of the country.

If I can stop paying tax to subvent the midwest, I'll happily pay that money to source water from somewhere else. It'll still be a massive net saving.

liammur · 19-08-2010 6:52pm

You'll be a long time paying for anglo and all the other IFSC bankers that have ruined the country. LOL

L1011 · 19-08-2010 6:53pm

liammur wrote: »

You'll be a long time paying for anglo and all the other IFSC bankers that have ruined the country. LOL

That has no relevance to my post, whatsoever.

helimachoptor · 19-08-2010 6:55pm

MYOB wrote: »

That has no relevance to my post, whatsoever.

Their HQ's are in Dublin

liammur · 19-08-2010 6:57pm

Correct helim.

Incompetence stemming from dublin has ruined the country, be it the bankers or the likes of bertie ahern.

L1011 · 19-08-2010 7:08pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

Their HQ's are in Dublin

Still irrelevant. The entire country outside the greater dublin area is reliant on transfers from the GDA.

In return, we take water. Live with it.

liammur · 19-08-2010 7:13pm

Factually incorrect.

The entire country is dependent on borrowings to the tune of circa €20bn annually. Where the government decides to place IDA companies is of little relevance. They are in ireland for low corporation tax rates.

L1011 · 19-08-2010 7:21pm

liammur wrote: »

Factually incorrect.

No its not.

liammur · 19-08-2010 7:29pm

Without borrowings from abroad the country goes under.
Without MNC's every region in the country will see massive unemployment.
No county in the country is self sufficient apart from Mayo (had bertie ahern and ray burke not signed the deal of the millenium from Shell's point of view).

What we need is to maximise our resources, and fixing leaking pipes imo is a far more productive solution than draining a river.

L1011 · 19-08-2010 8:07pm

...you're still rabbiting on irrelevantly

Ireland minus Dublin is bankrupt. Gone. Done for. When there was no need for borrowing, everywhere outside of Dublin survived off Dublin's tax. Now it'd not be able to get the loans it survives without Dublin's remaining commercial/industrial/services base.

You're deluding yourself if you think Dublin isn't supporting the entire country. I'd invite any of the "hands off our water" people to opt out of taking any benefits they get from Dublin.

liammur · 19-08-2010 8:18pm

You are unfortunately still failing to grasp the concept.

Take dublin out of ireland, and cork will readily take the intels, ibms, govt hq, etc, etc. Shannon has many MNC's. I don't think they can claim to be sustaining other regions because say, if Intel didn't move there, they'd be elsewhere.

It's only natural resources that seperate the haves from the have-nots.

L1011 · 19-08-2010 8:21pm

liammur wrote: »

You are unfortunately still failing to grasp the concept.

Take dublin out of ireland, and cork will readily take the intels, ibms, govt hq, etc, etc. Shannon has many MNC's. I don't think they can claim to be sustaining other regions because say, if Intel didn't move there, they'd be elsewhere.

It's only natural resources that seperate the haves from the have-nots.

no, its you that is flailing around, I'd suspect deliberately refusing to understand my point

The "intels, ibms, govt hq, etc, etc." are in Dublin. They need resources such as water. They provide the support that allows the midwest, etc, to remain inhabited, hence they can quite justifiably take water from the midwest and not expect the midwest to get whimpery.

However, they're getting whimpery for some reason.

Boardmaster · 19-08-2010 8:23pm

MYOB wrote: »

...you're still rabbiting on irrelevantly

Ireland minus Dublin is bankrupt. Gone. Done for. When there was no need for borrowing, everywhere outside of Dublin survived off Dublin's tax. Now it'd not be able to get the loans it survives without Dublin's remaining commercial/industrial/services base.

You're deluding yourself if you think Dublin isn't supporting the entire country. I'd invite any of the "hands off our water" people to opt out of taking any benefits they get from Dublin.

Not sure i agree with this but also think this might be for another thread. If we keep this on track as we are one country and should balance the nations needs not just our own area, but having said that I think we all agree that Dublin has leaky pipes which causes a lot of waste. I would be under the impression that the pipes should be fixed first rather having more water thrown at a system which is not 100%.

Just imagine you had a water tank at home which supplied your water but before it reached you a lot of water leaked along the way. Would throw more water at it or fix the pipe as a starting point?

Then you can start looking at other options...

L1011 · 19-08-2010 8:24pm

The problem of leaky pipes isn't something you can wave a magic wand it. Its a problem that water utilities, private and public, across the entire world cannot solve properly and they've been trying for hundreds of years.

Its not the solution to the problems in Dublin and even if it was, it'd only solve it short term. The Shannon plan is to cover growth for decades, just as the Wicklow ones were before.

liammur · 19-08-2010 8:25pm

Exactly Boardmaster.

Who is to say in a few years time the new pipes wouldn't be leaking, and my concern is the affect it would have on the ecosystem of the river.

Pete_Cavan · 19-08-2010 8:47pm

liammur wrote: »

Exactly Boardmaster.

Who is to say in a few years time the new pipes wouldn't be leaking, and my concern is the affect it would have on the ecosystem of the river.

The plan is to take the water from Lough Derg which is a very deep lake (36m at its deepest) and is quite close to the mouth of the river (the river becomes tidal at Limerick, so you end up with "Brackish" water which isn't drinkable) so it will have very little effect on the ecosystem of the Shannon. With the new reservoir in Offaly to store the water it could be argued that this project will have a possitive net effect on aquatic ecosystems in this country.

Fixing the leaks is an ongoing process and it is being improved gradually every year. It is not possible to dig up all the roads around Dublin and lay all new pipes because of the disruption it would could. And even if you did get your way and they fixed all the leaks around the city you would complain that Dublin is getting such an upgrade to its water network at the expense of somewhere else!

Sponge Bob · 19-08-2010 8:50pm

Dublin would need water even if there were no leaks, the leakage in Dublin is a LOT lower than in most rural counties not least because money was spent to fix them. But having fixed many of the leaks they need water and this scheme would sort not only Dublin but Kildare and Meath and Laois too.

ecosystem of the river , pahhh

liammur · 19-08-2010 8:51pm

'The plan is to take the water from Lough Derg which is a very deep lake (36m at its deepest) and is quite close to the mouth of the river (the river becomes tidal at Limerick, so you end up with "Brackish" water which isn't drinkable) so it will have very little effect on the ecosystem of the Shannon. With the new reservoir in Offaly to store the water it could be argued that this project will have a possitive net effect on aquatic ecosystems in this country.

Fixing the leaks is an ongoing process and it is being improved gradually every year. It is not possible to dig up all the roads around Dublin and lay all new pipes because of the disruption it would could. And even if you did get your way and they fixed all the leaks around the city you would complain that Dublin is getting such an upgrade to its water network at the expense of somewhere else!

--

Nonsense

And the worrying part of it is you may actyally believe it.

Sponge Bob · 19-08-2010 8:54pm

The intake will be in Offaly not on Lough Derg, read the thread properly

markpb · 19-08-2010 8:57pm

liammur wrote: »

Who is to say in a few years time the new pipes wouldn't be leaking

You could worry about that. Or you could accept that a lot of the really bad pipes under Dublin are Victorian era and that they're leaking because of their age. The new pipes will be... well... new.

liammur wrote: »

Nonsense. And the worrying part of it is you may actyally believe it.

That's a well-constructed argument!

L1011 · 19-08-2010 8:58pm

liammur wrote: »

'

Nonsense

And the worrying part of it is you may actyally believe it.

I'm starting to suspect you're a troll.

Lu Tze · 19-08-2010 9:09pm

markpb wrote: »

You could worry about that. Or you could accept that a lot of the really bad pipes under Dublin are Victorian era and that they're leaking because of their age. The new pipes will be... well... new.

Its not strictly true. A lot of the 80-90 year old cast or spun iron pipes are still structurally sound. The DoEHLG in their latest WSIP budget have pushed for network rehabilitation across the country.

This shouldn't be done yet as far as I am concerned.

I heard (i work in the industry) that DCC did a trial on a discrete area of the water network, replacing every pipe in the area, and leakage was still high (they did it to show the departments plan for network renewal wasn't the magic bullet for reducing leakage that it has been made out to be).

The most of the leakage is on supply pipes to houses, within private property, and won't be fixed until the domestic meters are in i.e. people are paying for the water which is pissing out underneath their driveway into the nearest sewer.

All that said, they should have a budget every year to renew 5-10% of their water networks, as it is needed in conjunction with the private side leaks being fixed.

markpb · 19-08-2010 9:13pm

Lu Tze wrote: »

The most of the leakage is on supply pipes to houses, within private property, and won't be fixed until the domestic meters are in i.e. people are paying for the water which is pissing out underneath their driveway into the nearest sewer.

I'd well believe that but I don't think DCC are sitting on their laurels. I was in a rented property five years ago that had a leak underneath which was spotted by DCC. We got two warnings (which the landlord ignored) before they cut off our water supply.

liammur · 19-08-2010 9:48pm

MYOB

'I'm starting to suspect you're a troll. '

---

You have a canny knack of getting everything wrong

L1011 · 19-08-2010 9:55pm

liammur wrote: »

You have a canny knack of getting everything wrong

Another fantastically detailed argument there...

paulm17781 · 19-08-2010 10:33pm

I don't remember the report, I thought Dublin leaked less than the rest of the country. I am near certain every county (even the ones around the Shannon!) had leaking pipes.

DCC wrote to my parents about a leak in their house recently, it has since been fixed. Seemingly they are trying to fix all the leaking problems.

liammur · 19-08-2010 10:41pm

The level of incompetence in this country is simply mind boggling. Between leaking pipes, led in the water, cryptosporidium, and they're trying to bring in water charges.

paulm17781 · 19-08-2010 10:44pm

liammur wrote: »

The level of incompetence in this country is simply mind boggling. .

A lot of that can be put down to NIMBYism and rural counties claiming they all deserve the same as urban areas. Both of these contribute to no progress being made anywhere as the money gets spread to thinly and there isn't enough to do things that matter.

liammur · 19-08-2010 10:53pm

That may be plausible if we weren't squandering money like there is no tomorrow.

Lu Tze · 19-08-2010 10:59pm

liammur wrote: »

Between leaking pipes, lead in the water, cryptosporidium,

This is from the supply pipe, they never really made watermains out of lead.

On that point i wonder how they are going to fund the remedying of what you have outlined above... what could they possibly do to fund the rehabilitation of a service that has thus far been provided for free and hence has no revenue stream...

Oh yeah

liammur wrote: »

and they're trying to bring in water charges.

The upside of this is in a few years they will be accountable for the quality and consistancy of supply.

liammur · 19-08-2010 11:04pm

Good points but wouldn ot necessarily agree re accountability of quality of water, if the state of some roads are anything to go by.

I buy water and would encourage others to do likewise

Lu Tze · 19-08-2010 11:13pm

Its a product/service you will be paying for by use. It might not happen immediately but there will be a court challenge at some point for paying for water which is not of the standards set for potable water, and if it isn't won in our native courts it will be won in europe.

That would be my prediction - that and all water treatment works will be privately operated in 15 years.

liammur · 19-08-2010 11:18pm

'all water treatment works will be privately operated in 15 years. '

Agreed, even sooner i would imagine.

Let's hope they haven't ruined the shannon in the meantime!

Bluetonic · 12-11-2010 12:05am

I see the Shannon is flooding the midlands again at the moment.

Now if only this water could be drained off before it causes damage and stored somewhere for a better use.

Hmmm.....

dowlingm · 12-11-2010 2:52pm

New != better. Apparently Toronto's cast iron 100 year pipes have a lower failure rate than the "improved" pipes laid from the mid 1950s because it turns out those ones are more susceptible to corrosion. When you're dealing with lifespans of decades, it's tricky to innovate.

Carawaystick · 14-11-2010 2:47am

dowlingm wrote: »

New != better. Apparently Toronto's cast iron 100 year pipes have a lower failure rate than the "improved" pipes laid from the mid 1950s because it turns out those ones are more susceptible to corrosion. When you're dealing with lifespans of decades, it's tricky to innovate.

Plastic corrodes slowly.....

what'r gas mains made from in torono?

Shannon supplying water to Dublin?

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