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150+ killings by British soldiers in NI never fully investigated

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  • 21-06-2010 11:07am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭


    And that only covers the period between 1970 and 1973. I wonder did many people especially British people know this that went on in their name?

    Some would say that a portion of these deaths were 'combatants' which is probably true but a huge chunk of them were unarmed innocent civilians if one was to look over the list of deaths in this period.

    My personal opinion is that these deaths are the reason why a South Africa style Truth & Reconciliation commission(decision pending on its formation) is scary to the British establishment as it exposes the good reputation of the British army among the British people.

    Whole article here http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/20/saville-inquiry-killings-soldiers-troubles-northern-ireland
    Guardian wrote:
    More than 150 killings committed by soldiers during Northern Ireland's Troubles were never fully investigated because of an informal understanding between the police and the army.

    The inadequacy of official examinations into fatal military shootings emerged in the wake of last week's Saville inquiry report on the "unjustifiable" deaths of 13 civilians on Bloody Sunday and in findings by the Police Service of Northern Ireland's historical enquiries team (HET).

    The effect of the practice – under which soldiers who shot civilians were questioned by the army's Royal Military Police (RMP) rather than police detectives – has been highlighted by a Derry-based human rights organisation, the Pat Finucane Centre, which works closely with HET investigators.

    It meant, according to the centre's Paul O'Connor, that between 1970 and 1973 soldiers were unlikely to be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. During that period they shot dead more than 150 people in the province.

    The agreement made in 1970 between the chief constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the army in Northern Ireland was revoked in September 1973 because it was "unsatisfactory". "RMP investigations into killings then were known as tea and sandwich inquiries," O'Connor said.

    He claimed the RMT often did not obtain statements so soldiers who killed civilians were not cross-examined. "This was therefore a deeply flawed procedure," he added.

    "In effect, there was no investigation. The RMP did not take weapons and examine them. Sometimes the paperwork would not even be handed over to the RUC. There were 150 people killed by the army in this period and they were never fully investigated."

    This failure encouraged a culture of impunity to develop among troops who felt they were above the law, according to O'Connor.

    Flaws in the agreement are acknowledged in an HET report, released this month, into the killing of William McGreanery by Grenadier Guards in Derry in September 1971 – five months before Bloody Sunday.

    It said the policy meant that "RUC investigators were to have gathered all relevant civilian witness and forensic evidence, and furnish it to the RMP prior to an interview being conducted with a soldier. It clearly envisaged that soldiers would face a thorough investigation, and was designed to enable the RMP to provide effective support in the difficult times that existed."

    But the result, the HET said, was that "this policy was not followed; in any event it negated any possibility of independence and it is questionable whether the chief constable had the legal authority to devolve his responsibilities in this manner, notwithstanding the immensely difficult security situation that existed at the time. These arrangements meant that in practice, soldiers were not interviewed by civilian police officers at all".

    The MoD has defended the practice in recent correspondence, claiming that it was "acting as the civil power bearing the lion's share of law enforcement" in Northern Ireland until police primacy was restored in 1976.

    The Saville report draws attention to the same problem and the way in which RMP questioning was conducted for "managerial" purposes rather than in pursuit of independent "criminal" investigations.

    The report quotes a lecture given in 1973 by an unidentified RMP major to a provost marshal's study session. "Back in 1970 a decision was reached between the GOC [general officer commanding Northern Ireland] and the chief constable whereby RMP would tend to military witnesses and the RUC to civilian witnesses in the investigation of offences and incidents," it noted.

    "With both RMP and RUC sympathetic towards the soldier, who after all was doing an incredibly difficult job, he was highly unlikely to make a statement incriminating himself, for the RMP investigator was out for information for managerial, not criminal purposes, and, using their powers of discretion, it was equally unlikely that the RUC would prefer charges against soldiers except in the most extreme of circumstances."

    Lord Saville's critical conclusions about soldiers' behaviour on Bloody Sunday will encourage relatives of those shot dead by the army on other occasions to press for the revival of police investigations.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Do you take the same interest in those blown to bits by terrorists during the same period, a lot of whom are walking around scot free?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Do you take the same interest in those blown to bits by terrorists during the same period, a lot of whom are walking around scot free?
    And which of those incidents weren't investigated?

    :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Do you take the same interest in those blown to bits by terrorists during the same period, a lot of whom are walking around scot free?

    Yes, do you have the same interest in the topic?

    What is your view, should these killings(as per topic) be investigated?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Do you take the same interest in those blown to bits by terrorists during the same period, a lot of whom are walking around scot free?

    Surely you're not equating "Our Boys" with those dastardly terrorists are you? That would indicate there was some sort of war being fought!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Truly shameful way to do things. All of these killings should have been investigated properly, in the first place, and I think now that this has come out, they should be investiaged again properly.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What is the point of investigating these now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    What is the point of investigating these now?

    Justice for those killed. To show that the North has moved on from the impunity once enjoyed by British forces, and that no one is above the law.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Seems the worms are coming out of the woodwork post Saville report. I wonder if an open and transparent investigation is now warranted by the British Government into the British Army carry on in the north. Thing is your average person in england doesn't have a clue on what went on and how "dirty" a war it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    I'm sure if there is a report, it'll take another decade or three to come out, thereby safely ensureing there are few left alive to dispute the official version.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    wes wrote: »
    Justice for those killed. To show that the North has moved on from the impunity once enjoyed by British forces, and that no one is above the law.

    Well said.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jank wrote: »
    Seems the worms are coming out of the woodwork post Saville report. I wonder if an open and transparent investigation is now warranted by the British Government into the British Army carry on in the north. Thing is your average person in england doesn't have a clue on what went on and how "dirty" a war it was.

    A lot of people in England knew just how dirty the war was, but to an extent turned a blind eye.

    There would have been a lot more focus on what was going on in northern Ireland if people were not more interested in the random bombings and murders going on in their own back yard.

    I think any sympathies the people of England had for Irish natioalists was shattered by the Balcombe Street gang.

    Maybe there should be a truth and reconciliation process, but I have no confidence that certain participants are interested in the truth, only in furthering their own political agenda.

    Members of the IRA witheld facts from the Saville enquiry, so why would they tell the truth in another enquiry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    Justice for those killed. To show that the North has moved on from the impunity once enjoyed by British forces, and that no one is above the law.

    In that case the British/Emerican/French really should investigate the 50k plus German soldiers that died in their prison camps after the war ended, since the Allies were the good guys an all and they shouldn't have been above the law either eh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Oh Lord, not another one of these Brit bashing threads ...... :cool:

    God bless the IRA, defender of the people, cleaner than clean, repelling those nasty colluding Brits, & saving Irish lives from all those British murderers ;) Think I'll steer clear of this Anti-British Irish Republican propagandist Rant of a thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    In that case the British/Emerican/French really should investigate the 50k plus German soldiers that died in their prison camps after the war ended, since the Allies were the good guys an all and they shouldn't have been above the law either eh.

    This is pretty much how you reply in most threads. Ignore the topic at hand and bring something else up. What your saying has nothing to do with this topic.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank



    Members of the IRA witheld facts from the Saville enquiry, so why would they tell the truth in another enquiry.

    Do you have any proof of this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    This is pretty much how you reply in most threads. Ignore the topic at hand and bring something else up. What your saying has nothing to do with this topic.

    I'm not ignoring the topic at all, what I am doing is highlighting the selectivity of some posters regarding their calls for justice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jank wrote: »
    Do you have any proof of this?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/15/bloody-sunday-inquiry-key-findings
    The report said that republican paramilitaries had been responsible for "some firing" but the scale had been exaggerated by British soldiers and "none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of the civilian casualties".

    • The report concluded that two Official IRA men had gone to a pre-arranged sniping position and shots had been fired by republican paramilitaries that were not merely in response to the British soldiers opening fire.

    • Saville said Martin McGuiness, now the deputy first minister of Northern Ireland, "was probably armed with a Thompson sub-machine gun" but said that there was no evidence he fired the weapon and that this provided no justification for the soldiers opening fire.

    • It also found evidence of people with nail and petrol bombs and at least one car used to hold weapons in Glenfada Park North. The inquiry said the Official IRA had tried to conceal the whole truth about its activities but that the Glenfada Park North area was clear of weapons when the soldiers arrived.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I'm not ignoring the topic at all, what I am doing is highlighting the selectivity of some posters regarding their calls for justice.

    No, your not actually. You are very deliberately trying to not talk about the actual topic, as per usual. The thread is about killings going uninvestigated up North by British soldiers, and not World War 2.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Camelot wrote: »
    Oh Lord, not another one of these Brit bashing threads ...... :cool:

    Totally wrong.
    Camelot wrote: »
    God bless the IRA, defender of the people, cleaner than clean, repelling those nasty colluding Brits, & saving Irish lives from all those British murderers ;) Think I'll steer clear of this Anti-British Irish Republican propagandist Rant of a thread.

    What's this crap got to do with the topic?

    I don't expect an answer from you as you do not have a leg to stand on with regards to the topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    I'm not ignoring the topic at all, what I am doing is highlighting the selectivity of some posters regarding their calls for justice.

    What posters and what selectivity?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I'm not ignoring the topic at all, what I am doing is highlighting the selectivity of some posters regarding their calls for justice.

    so we should instead talk about all subjects at once? ok then...

    The British soldiers should be investigated and so should the authenticity of laudabiliter and if not then why bother with an american version of Ringu when original japanese version was better than the PX line of Vespas.

    nah its still better if we talk about one thing at a time


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    wes wrote: »
    Justice for those killed. To show that the North has moved on from the impunity once enjoyed by British forces, and that no one is above the law.
    I thought we had moved on when we released all the prisoners post the GFA agreement.

    Quid pro quo no?


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Livvie


    A lot of people in England knew just how dirty the war was, but to an extent turned a blind eye.

    There would have been a lot more focus on what was going on in northern Ireland if people were not more interested in the random bombings and murders going on in their own back yard.

    I think any sympathies the people of England had for Irish natioalists was shattered by the Balcombe Street gang.

    Maybe there should be a truth and reconciliation process, but I have no confidence that certain participants are interested in the truth, only in furthering their own political agenda.

    Members of the IRA witheld facts from the Saville enquiry, so why would they tell the truth in another enquiry.

    I disagree with your first point, Fred. Most people I know had no idea what was going on - they were fed half truths by the media and believed them. All they knew was that the IRA were blowing people up. A lot of them even thought it was actually a war between the UK and Ireland. They had no idea about the history. All that was reported were the riots, followed by the campaign of terror. It would appear on the surface that we were there to keep the peace on British soil - British because that's what the majority wanted.

    Given those facts it's no surprise really that your average politically naive citizen thought that we were the good guys.

    I would love to see a high profile documentary on the BBC, detailing the facts, so that the British, and especially the English, could actually see what went on, and more importantly, what preceded it.

    I sometimes wonder too, if some of the younger, inexperienced soldiers, had a clue about the history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I thought we had moved on when we released all the prisoners post the GFA agreement.

    Quid pro quo no?

    Well, no its not the same. We are talking about killings that were not investigated properly, and afaik, they would not be covered by the GFA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Livvie wrote: »
    I disagree with your first point, Fred. Most people I know had no idea what was going on - they were fed half truths by the media and believed them. All they knew was that the IRA were blowing people up. A lot of them even thought it was actually a war between the UK and Ireland. They had no idea about the history. All that was reported were the riots, followed by the campaign of terror. It would appear on the surface that we were there to keep the peace on British soil - British because that's what the majority wanted.

    Given those facts it's no surprise really that your average politically naive citizen thought that we were the good guys.

    I would love to see a high profile documentary on the BBC, detailing the facts, so that the British, and especially the English, could actually see what went on, and more importantly, what preceded it.

    I sometimes wonder too, if some of the younger, inexperienced soldiers, had a clue about the history.

    are you talking about the history, or what was happening?

    either way though, I would say that amongst my peers, there was a certain amount of not wanting to know what was going on, the bastards were bombing our train stations and they were therefore the enemy.

    I have said before that the IRA allowed the British Media to ignore the civil rights movement and lump civil rights marches and nationalist terrorists in the same category.

    Either way, i would agree that Panorama could do with a decent documentary about the troubles and tell the full story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    The facts in this case have been identified as that the British Army did indeed use lethal force on unarmed civilians. What the IRA was doing before and during the incident is irrelevant to the enquiry. Even if the IRA had fired on the troops, that would still not alter the facts.

    Therefore, the question in my mind goes much further than were the troops reckless, out of control, or homicidal. Using armies as peacekeepers must always be a risky business as soldiers are trained for one purpose only - to kill the enemies of the state. Any government who assigns them to peacekeeping should think very carefully before doing so. It should then consider equally carefully who to send. Soldiers are not policemen.

    The British paratroop regiments are an elite force trained for aggression and fitted with short fuses, and their activities in the Falklands suggests what their training is intended to achieve. So I feel strongly that the enquiry has not gone where it should have gone. It shouldn't simply stop at blaming the soldiers. It should go on to ask who decided that the Paras of all men should be assigned to peacekeeping when their whole business is war. Once again Britain has succeeded in blaming Joe Soap and letting the politicians and the top brass off the hook. That is what is sour about Britain.

    Some people, I note, are now calling for the individual soldiers to be prosecuted. Maybe they should be. But unless the politicians and brass who sent them in are also prosecuted then I personally would oppose the whole idea. An apology from David Cameron? If I send in a trained killer to assassinate someone, can I get of the hook by apologising?

    At the long ago Nurenburg trials they executed men for being in charge of homicidal troops. They didn't execute the soldiers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin



    I have said before that the IRA allowed the British Media to ignore the civil rights movement and lump civil rights marches and nationalist terrorists in the same category.

    .

    As the civil rights movement was founded in 1964, and discrimination had been ongoing since 1921/22, I'd say they were doing a fine job of ignoring it all on their own.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Camelot wrote: »
    Oh Lord, not another one of these Brit bashing threads ...... :cool:

    God bless the IRA, defender of the people, cleaner than clean, repelling those nasty colluding Brits, & saving Irish lives from all those British murderers ;) Think I'll steer clear of this Anti-British Irish Republican propagandist Rant of a thread.

    Can you please point out where in this thread that anybody has stated the the IRA were cleaner than clean?

    I fully agree that you should steer clear of this thread, rather than posting absolute ****e and not contributing to the topic in the slightest bit.


    Hopefully a proper investigation will be carried out, people deserve answers to any kind of dodgy dealings regardless of if they involved British troops, Republicans or Loyalists. Numerous people were affected by the events during the Troubles, it's about time people start getting the answers they deserve.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    As the civil rights movement was founded in 1964, and discrimination had been ongoing since 1921/22, I'd say they were doing a fine job of ignoring it all on their own.

    What are you implying, that for 42 years there was no problem?

    we are heading miles off topic here. All I can do is speak for myself and people I know. I will agree that people were not aware of what was going on and I have already given my reason as to why this may have been.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Poccington wrote: »
    Hopefully a proper investigation will be carried out, people deserve answers to any kind of dodgy dealings regardless of if they involved British troops, Republicans or Loyalists. Numerous people were affected by the events during the Troubles, it's about time people start getting the answers they deserve.

    I agree with that 100%, but it would require complete impartial cooperation from all involved and I'm not sure if that is possible.


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