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VRT for travelling spouse

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13

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    #62
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    Residency for income tax purposes and VRT purposes are not the same. What are the Residency Requirements?
    For VRT purposes you must have had your normal residence as defined below, outside the State at the time of transfer. In the case of a transfer from outside the EU, you must have had your normal residence outside the EU for a continuous period of at least 12 months prior to transfer.

    Normal Residence means:

    the place where you usually lived, for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of occupational and personal ties
    if you had no occupational ties, the place where you usually lived for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of personal ties
    if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days). It would be unreasonable to expect any Revenue official to believe that a newly married couple live 'separate lives'. Expressing different opinions will not change the law.


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    #63
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    peasant wrote: »
    She doesn't just "work" in NI, she bloody well lives there and is a NI citizen.

    Before she married the OP this was a clearcut case. Her driving down to the Republic 2-3 nights a week to visit some man didn't bother anyone, not even the VRT people.
    Now that she married this man she's a resident of the Republic?
    That's balls. The actual situation hasn't changed one bit.

    Regulations need to be flexible sometimes and need to be applied in spirit rather than by the letter.

    But with people like you (supposedly) in charge of applying them there is very little hope of that happening and the case will probably have to go to some EU court or whatever before your ilk see sense.

    Again, not that simple, the Legislation in Ireland is different to the UK, once they were married this became "personal ties"

    See the below:
    if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days).

    By that logic, I should have to register my car in the North as I regularly visit on my days off work.

    The UK doesn't have the same requirement, in fact you can drive a car on foreign plates if you work outside the UK for an unlimited amount of time, to cover lease cars etc.

    As i said this gets quite complicated and the OP should really talk to a tax consultant who specialises in this situation, theres probably some form somewhere that Customs have for it.

    Edit.. I believe its what Sean O said, but again there could be an exemption form.

    I do know there is one for the Dutch anyway, we had a car on German plates for 3 years with a form we had to keep in the glovebox to show the Dutch customs in the event we were stopped in it.


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    #64
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    Sean O wrote: »
    Residency for income tax purposes and VRT purposes are not the same. What are the Residency Requirements?
    For VRT purposes you must have had your normal residence as defined below, outside the State at the time of transfer. In the case of a transfer from outside the EU, you must have had your normal residence outside the EU for a continuous period of at least 12 months prior to transfer.

    Normal Residence means:

    the place where you usually lived, for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of occupational and personal ties
    if you had no occupational ties, the place where you usually lived for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of personal ties
    if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days). It would be unreasonable to expect any Revenue official to believe that a newly married couple live 'separate lives'. Expressing different opinions will not change the law.

    Nothing in your post indicates anything other than the lady in question is resident outside the Republic of Ireland.


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    #65
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    You might get a better idea of what I am talking about if you looked at the primary legislation: the Finance Act 1992 (as amended) and Statutory Instrument No. 59 of 1993 for VRT .
    Council Directive 83/181 (EEC) and S.I. 183 of 1985 for VAT.
    Council Regulation (EEC) 918/83 for Customs duty.
    A simplified version is contained in the VRT leaflet VRT3 which can also be downloaded at the Revenue website revenue.ie.


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    #66
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Sean O wrote: »
    Residency for income tax purposes and VRT purposes are not the same. What are the Residency Requirements?
    For VRT purposes you must have had your normal residence as defined below, outside the State at the time of transfer. In the case of a transfer from outside the EU, you must have had your normal residence outside the EU for a continuous period of at least 12 months prior to transfer.

    Normal Residence means:

    the place where you usually lived, for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of occupational and personal ties
    if you had no occupational ties, the place where you usually lived for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of personal ties
    if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days). It would be unreasonable to expect any Revenue official to believe that a newly married couple live 'separate lives'. Expressing different opinions will not change the law.

    But there is no transfer to have a date!


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    #67
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Sean O wrote: »
    It would be unreasonable to expect any Revenue official to believe that a newly married couple live 'separate lives'.

    But what if they indeed do, as the OP states (and can prove!)?

    The revenue official might just have to be reasonable for a change :D


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    #68
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Sean O wrote: »
    because of personal ties if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days).
    peasant wrote: »
    But what if they indeed do, as the OP states (and can prove!)?

    The revenue official might just have to reasonable for a change :D

    What Sean O is saying is, because she comes to Ireland to "live" with him due to personal ties, she is considered a resident in Ireland.

    OP may want to start looking into the possiblity of heading up North to spend time with her.


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sean O wrote: »
    Residency for income tax purposes and VRT purposes are not the same. What are the Residency Requirements?
    For VRT purposes you must have had your normal residence as defined below, outside the State at the time of transfer. In the case of a transfer from outside the EU, you must have had your normal residence outside the EU for a continuous period of at least 12 months prior to transfer.

    Normal Residence means:

    the place where you usually lived, for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of occupational and personal ties
    if you had no occupational ties, the place where you usually lived for at least 185 days in the year ending on the date of transfer, because of personal ties
    if your occupational ties were in a different country from your personal ties then the country of your personal ties is taken as your normal residence if you returned there regularly (i.e. for most of your non-working days). It would be unreasonable to expect any Revenue official to believe that a newly married couple live 'separate lives'. Expressing different opinions will not change the law.

    Ok so I lived in London for a year, I worked there paid income tax, had a vote but returned home for a few days every month as all my family, friends etc were in Ireland. So was I a UK resident or did I remain an Irish resident. If you argue that I was an Irish resident then what would I have to do to become a UK resident?? Marry a UK resident?? Its a ridiculous argument.

    Imo the only thing that is making an issue out of this is that we have a land border with NI. If the op's wife were living in mainland UK and travelling back there would be no issue.

    Dravokivich wrote: »
    What Sean O is saying is, because she comes to Ireland to "live" with him due to personal ties, she is considered a resident in Ireland.

    OP may want to start looking into the possiblity of heading up North to spend time with her.

    He said that he does head up which again means his wife does not even spend all her weekends in the republic which strengthens the argument that she is an NI resident even more.


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    #70
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    What Sean O is saying is, ............

    .............he doesn't countenance any circumstance under which this lady should be exempt from paying VRT.


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    #71
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    Try and read the primary legislation before expressing an opinion. Remember that the law will not change because you do not understand it.


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    #72
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Gophur wrote: »
    .............he doesn't countenance any circumstance under which this lady should be exempt from paying VRT.

    He's not saying how he feels it should be... he's saying how it is...


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    #73
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    He's saying she is a resident.

    She would have to spend all weekend every weekend down here for her to be slightly considered a resident.

    She lives, works, shops, pays taxes and everything else in NI. She comes down for about a week every month if they alternate weekends. Does that really make someone a resident of another country?


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    #74
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    Exactly Dravokivich! At least somebody understands what I am saying.


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    #75
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Yawns wrote: »
    He's saying she is a resident.

    She would have to spend all weekend every weekend down here for her to be slightly considered a resident.

    She lives, works, shops, pays taxes and everything else in NI. She comes down for about a week every month if they alternate weekends. Does that really make someone a resident of another country?

    He also explained what defined her as a resident in the bit of his post I quoted earlier...
    Sean O wrote: »
    Exactly Dravokivich! At least somebody understands what I am saying.

    TBH, it is rather confusing... had to read over 1 of your last replies a few times...


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    #76
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Sean O wrote: »
    Exactly Dravokivich! At least somebody understands what I am saying.

    I for one also understand exactly what you are saying ...but I also understand that the law is an ass (sometimes), which is a feat that you are incapable of.
    Too many years in the public service do that kind of thing to you :D


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sean O wrote: »
    Exactly Dravokivich! At least somebody understands what I am saying.

    You still haven't answered my question about whether or not I was a UK resident when I lived in London?


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    #78
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Sean O wrote: »
    Exactly Dravokivich! At least somebody understands what I am saying.

    No I think most people understand what you are saying.

    The point is thou that this person works, lives, pays tax in another jurisdiction. How is it in any way right that we essentially abduct her residency without her will in order to impose a tax on her car, which she bought and paid for in another jurisdiction ? By this rational we should also give her PRSI stamps for her time working in the North.

    SeanO what you are saying may be the law, but I seriously doubt a judge would enforce it in this case.

    Furthermore -what are the rules up north then is she is driving up there 5 days a week on a southern reg'ed car ? Will she then get in trouble up there ?


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    #79
    Gophur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    He's not saying how he feels it should be... he's saying how it is...

    Actually, he is interpreting it.

    His opinion is not one I would be using for a definitive opinion.


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    #80
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Eden Wide Evergreen wrote: »
    You still haven't answered my question about whether or not I was a UK resident when I lived in London?

    For the purposes of Tax, yes you would be, thats the part that gets complicated.

    I.E. if your (tax) partner* in Ireland had a house with rental income for example then under the tax treaty you would have to declare this under your worldwide income. Similarly you would be able to get the benefits of marriage under the taxation system but would not be able to recieve the benefit in both countries.

    The rules also vary from country to country.
    Example in the Netherlands you get a tax rebate on your mortgage, in Germany no such benefit exists, I pay half the mortgage but can only claim the rebate under her income, also in Germany I get 35cent / KM for commuting to and from work of a rebate, no such rebate exists in the Netherlands so I only get it one way.

    Bottom line is consult a tax advisor, they will save you money if you own a house.

    I have a bucket of paper I have to go through for 2009/2010 !!

    This is why the EU has absolutely no governance over local taxation systems, there is not easy way to iron out the irregularities.

    *tax partner* being either Married, Fiscal Partners or Civil Partnership (Civil Partnership is not recognised in Germany)

    **EDIT**

    Could you not just apply for the VRT Exemption and then keep the approval documentation for it in the glovebox ?


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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    keithclancy wrote: »
    For the purposes of Tax, yes you would be, thats the part that gets complicated.

    I.E. if your (tax) partner* in Ireland had a house with rental income for example then under the tax treaty you would have to declare this under your worldwide income. Similarly you would be able to get the benefits of marriage under the taxation system but would not be able to recieve the benefit in both countries.

    The rules also vary from country to country.
    Example in the Netherlands you get a tax rebate on your mortgage, in Germany no such benefit exists, I pay half the mortgage but can only claim the rebate under her income, also in Germany I get 35cent / KM for commuting to and from work of a rebate, no such rebate exists in the Netherlands so I only get it one way.

    Bottom line is consult a tax advisor, they will save you money if you own a house.

    I have a bucket of paper I have to go through for 2009/2010 !!

    This is why the EU has absolutely no governance over local taxation systems, there is not easy way to iron out the irregularities.

    *tax partner* being either Married, Fiscal Partners or Civil Partnership (Civil Partnership is not recognised in Germany)

    **EDIT**

    Could you not just apply for the VRT Exemption and then keep the approval documentation for it in the glovebox ?

    I got the VRT exemption when I moved back which means I was treated as resident in the UK. The op's wife is a much resident in NI as I was in the UK so so I fail to see why she should be treated differently.

    Btw I'm not saying she should look for the exemption as she would not get it as she would have to be moving permanently to Ireland, have a p45 from her NI job etc.


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    #82
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    Bad advice. She might be entitled to a Transfer of Residence exemption as she is already considered to be a resident of the ROI. As I have said before the residency laws for income tax purposes and VRT purposes are different. A judge has no choice but to enforce the law as laid down by the Oireachtas.


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    #83
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    As an aside cross border workers are not considered to be residents of the state in which they are employed.


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    #84
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Sean O wrote: »
    As an aside cross border workers are not considered to be residents of the state in which they are employed.

    Shes not a cross border worker. She lives and works on one side of the border and always has done as we are told. She crosses the border on weekends to visit her husband.


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    #85
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    Legally she is a State resident.


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    #86
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Sean O wrote: »
    Legally she is a State resident.

    Yes yes so you've said. But she's not for VAT and state benefits right ?
    IF this is the case then I think this woman should fight it tooth and nail and take it to Europe if necessary


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    #87
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Sean O wrote: »
    This lady would, without any doubt, be considered a State resident. She is not entitled to drive a non-State regisrered vehicle in the Republic of Ireland. She would also not be entitled to Temporary Exemption. She has two options. 1) Pay the appropriate VRT or apply for a Transfer of Residence exemption. Form C&E 1077 is a Transfer of Residence application and can be downloaded from the Revenue website at revenue.ie. The law is quit clear and no amount of ill-informed opinions will change it.

    its a great pity our wonderful custom officials are not as good at enforcing on a lot of UK reg hiace vans certain section of the population drive , but then .................


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    #88
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    Sean O wrote: »
    Legally she is a State resident.
    Can I speak to your supervisor / manager, please? :D


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    #89
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    People are being obtuse here, as usual with these threads.
    How is it in any way right that we essentially abduct her residency without her will in order to impose a tax on her car,

    She freely entered into marriage, something which greatly changes your tax status, to your advantage and disadvantage. Were she single she could spend every weekend in Dublin without issue.
    She might be entitled to a Transfer of Residence exemption

    If she is assumed to have become resident, then she would be entitled to Transfer of Residence, so no VRT should be payable either way.
    I'm not saying she should look for the exemption as she would not get it as she would have to be moving permanently to Ireland, have a p45 from her NI job etc.

    This has no effect on her NI job.
    Could you not just apply for the VRT Exemption and then keep the approval documentation for it in the glovebox ?

    I imagine this is what the OP is doing, but this thread goes on and on regardless.


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    #90
    Sean O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Sean O


    I am sure the Customs would appreciate any information you might have about any attempts at VRT evasion. Dublin Enforcement (part of Dublin Port District)
    Enforcement of Customs & Excise, General Smuggling Prevention, Customs National Drugs Team.

    Contact details for the Dublin Enforcement District Address Telephone e-mail
    New Customs House, Promenade Road, Dublin 3. 01 877 6400 dubenf@revenue.ie


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    #91
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    I think I've discovered a new business venture:

    - make up some fake marriage certificates from an obscure country with one Irish resident as one half of the couple
    - buy a few NI registered bangers
    - place asylum seeker into said banger with said certificate and steer them to the next customs checkpoint in the republic
    - automatic residency status is granted

    - PROFIT !

    :D


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