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Metal detectors in Ireland: yes or no?

  • 30-03-2010 6:31pm
    #1
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭


    Anybody know the history behind the banning of metal detectors here? I was on ebay recently and there is an abundance of Tudor gold coins, for instance, for sale. Apparently this is because metal detectors are legal over in Britain and thus more aspects of their history have been discovered.

    I heard Pat Wallace of the National Museum of Ireland recently and he was dead against metal detectors being used in Ireland.

    But surely if they were legalised we'd discover much more about our history? I'd love to get into it.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrynaflan_Chalice

    Was found with a metal detector. I didn't realise they weren't allowed over here.


  • #3
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrynaflan_Chalice

    Was found with a metal detector. I didn't realise they weren't allowed over here.

    Indeed the Derrynaflan Chalice was found with the aid of a metal detector but on a National monument if I remember correctly. The trouble with some of the metal detecting fraternity is that they are like the pirates of old and will pillage everything and anything. We already have things going missing from various heritage sites and metal detecting is a growing threat. It is the nature of the beast that they search for buried treasure they are not interested in history just dosh or hoarding items for personal gratification. I metal detected myself years ago but restricted myself to beaches - I found a few coins but even with a good metal detector ring-pulls were my staple find. So I would favour the continuance of the law on metal detecting which bans the use of from National monuments. :D

    Interesting transcript from 1993 Dail debate on metal detecting here: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0138/S.0138.199312020004.html


  • #4
    Lauder
    Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭Lauder


    It is perfectly legal to purchase and use metal detectors in Ireland, I think it just depends where you use them (not within National Monuments etc.)


  • #5
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Lauder wrote: »
    It is perfectly legal to purchase and use metal detectors in Ireland, I think it just depends where you use them (not within National Monuments etc.)

    Are you sure about that? If so, my options have extended enormously because the state has not even bothered to record most of the ancient sites around here. It just hasn't the finance to protect even a majority of Ireland's ancient sites.


  • #6
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Interesting transcript from 1993 Dail debate on metal detecting here: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0138/S.0138.199312020004.html

    Excellent, highly informative link.


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  • #7
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Check out the archeology forum. There's a thread there about metal detectors.

    The impression I got was that they're not ilegal to own as long as you only ever use them on a public beach with permission from the guards.

    The idea being that its difficult enough to get a job as an archeologist without the great unwashed thinking they can do it too.


  • #8
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Check out the archeology forum. There's a thread there about metal detectors.

    The impression I got was that they're not ilegal to own as long as you only ever use them on a public beach with permission from the guards.

    The idea being that its difficult enough to get a job as an archeologist without the great unwashed thinking they can do it too.

    No, the idea is to protect important historical sites from being ravaged by untrained people who will despoil a site to get what they want - think the destruction routinely perpetrated by Indiana Jones. :D


  • #9
    IrlCasey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭IrlCasey


    Greeting all, first post here. Having lived in Belgium for 17 years and spent many days in the Ardennes with my MD searching for WWII artefacts, very successfully, in conjunction with both historians and the local Police alike (as live and unstable ordinance was a regular find and required BDU intervention); anyway, so after 10 years being home in Ireland, i have finally recently decided to take up the hobby again and purchased a MD for the sole purpose of beach use. Having read the Irish legislation to great lengths and additional consulted both the Guards and a solicitor, i am happy that i can go ahead and find some random losses. As stipulated to my solicitor, in the unlikely event that i should find anything of any great archaeological significance, i shall of course document the find and inform the relevant parties. I have no interest in personal gain but more a walk on the beach with my young daughter "treasure hunting" as she sees it and some fresh air for us both. With constant shifting of sands and a maximum of a 20/25cms 8" depth probe i am hardly about to make any great finds!!! (Contrary to the belief of some individuals) Seeing as archaeologists general have to employ the use of massive earth moving equipment to reach their interests and in general consider the top soil of 30/35cms, archeologically void due to natural erosion and inland ploughing, my beach endeavours are hardly going to be of any great archaeological significance to them. However, that said, the experience that my daughter of 2.5 years old will extract from the excitement of small finds (contemporary coinage, rings etc - treasures in her eyes!), coupled with my respect for both environment (collect all found refuse such as bottle tops, ring pulls, nails, rusty objects, needles etc, always fill holes and follow the 7 MD standard rules etc) and the need to respect out surroundings, will hopefully foster a great future appreciation for both in her future. I will be more than willing to answer to any individual who approaches me on the beach and shall carry a copy of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987 - (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0017/index.html)
    at all times for reference. Show me one part of this legislation that says i can not own a MD, that i can not use it on an area that is not of archaeological significance, (mind you this area is very grey as the state does not exactly provide information to what is of archaeological significance, other than Tara which they are happy to tarmac over!) that i can not use it on a beach etc , I shall always use my MD in a responsible manner and should hope that others do so to
    “i have simply lost my keys Guard!”:rolleyes:
    Just my 2c worth.


  • #10
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    I have no interest in personal gain but more a walk on the beach with my young daughter "treasure hunting" as she sees it and some fresh air for us both. With constant shifting of sands and a maximum of a 20/25cms 8" depth probe i am hardly about to make any great finds!!! (Contrary to the belief of some individuals) Seeing as archaeologists general have to employ the use of massive earth moving equipment to reach their interests and in general consider the top soil of 30/35cms, archeologically void due to natural erosion and inland ploughing, my beach endeavours are hardly going to be of any great archaeological significance to them. However, that said, the experience that my daughter of 2.5 years old will extract from the excitement of small finds (contemporary coinage, rings etc - treasures in her eyes!), coupled with my respect for both environment (collect all found refuse such as bottle tops, ring pulls, nails, rusty objects, needles etc, always fill holes and follow the 7 MD standard rules etc) and the need to respect out surroundings, will hopefully foster a great future appreciation for both in her future.

    Cool motivation.


  • #11
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    I'm more thinking of local deserted villages which once were thriving manorial communities. I know the land owner of one in particular, who happens to amazingly be a member of the same family which appears in the medieval records of the manor. It is not a national heritage site. To my despair, the ruins of the medieval church on it are also not a national heritage site. I am certain of this as I rang up Dúchas years ago to see if they could protect it and they explained they didn't have the resources to cover their official heritage sites, never mind unofficial heritage sites like my one.

    Does anybody know where online we can get a list of every state-protected heritage site in Ireland?


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  • #12
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    Greeting all, first post here. Having lived in Belgium for 17 years and spent many days in the Ardennes with my MD searching for WWII artefacts, very successfully, in conjunction with both historians and the local Police alike (as live and unstable ordinance was a regular find and required BDU intervention); anyway, so after 10 years being home in Ireland, i have finally recently decided to take up the hobby again and purchased a MD for the sole purpose of beach use. Having read the Irish legislation to great lengths and additional consulted both the Guards and a solicitor, i am happy that i can go ahead and find some random losses. As stipulated to my solicitor, in the unlikely event that i should find anything of any great archaeological significance, i shall of course document the find and inform the relevant parties. I have no interest in personal gain but more a walk on the beach with my young daughter "treasure hunting" as she sees it and some fresh air for us both. With constant shifting of sands and a maximum of a 20/25cms 8" depth probe i am hardly about to make any great finds!!! (Contrary to the belief of some individuals) Seeing as archaeologists general have to employ the use of massive earth moving equipment to reach their interests and in general consider the top soil of 30/35cms, archeologically void due to natural erosion and inland ploughing, my beach endeavours are hardly going to be of any great archaeological significance to them. However, that said, the experience that my daughter of 2.5 years old will extract from the excitement of small finds (contemporary coinage, rings etc - treasures in her eyes!), coupled with my respect for both environment (collect all found refuse such as bottle tops, ring pulls, nails, rusty objects, needles etc, always fill holes and follow the 7 MD standard rules etc) and the need to respect out surroundings, will hopefully foster a great future appreciation for both in her future. I will be more than willing to answer to any individual who approaches me on the beach and shall carry a copy of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987 - (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0017/index.html)
    at all times for reference. Show me one part of this legislation that says i can not own a MD, that i can not use it on an area that is not of archaeological significance, (mind you this area is very grey as the state does not exactly provide information to what is of archaeological significance, other than Tara which they are happy to tarmac over!) that i can not use it on a beach etc , I shall always use my MD in a responsible manner and should hope that others do so to
    “i have simply lost my keys Guard!”:rolleyes:
    Just my 2c worth.


    Great information. How far into the ground can most metal detectors detect? Where did you buy your metal detector? Are they expensive? I'm definitely more interested in the abandoned ruins around me, many of which I can find documentary evidence indicating a vibrant local community.


  • #13
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Great information. How far into the ground can most metal detectors detect? Where did you buy your metal detector? Are they expensive? I'm definitely more interested in the abandoned ruins around me, many of which I can find documentary evidence indicating a vibrant local community.

    Sure, but you realise that would be illegal?

    I think beaches are the only place these things are allowed. Past vibrant communities are exactly the places they dont people interferring with.

    We have some ruins, also a suspiciously symetrical great big tit of a mound. But i'd be terrified of inviting the government in to look at it.


  • #14
    IrlCasey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭IrlCasey


    Great information. - Cheers mate, glad you enjoyed my thoughts.

    How far into the ground can most metal detectors detect? -
    Well, there is no standard reply to this as the depth varies per device, and hence, also per price! You can spend up to €5000 on some machines that will probably give you about a 1.5m depth probe; yet that too is all dependent on the make up of terrain you are working on. The one i use has a depth probe of about +/-20/30cms, which is perfect for beach use, but that depth can vary on what size coil i use too and conditions alike. I have a standard 6.5" x 9" which i generally use and that gives me the above depth probe; however, if the sand is very dry i like to use my 9" x 12" as this gives both greater terrain coverage and an additional element of depth (+/- 40cms).

    Where did you buy your metal detector? -
    I bought mine on eBay (as new) from a company in the UK. (+/- €185.00 incl PP from UK) - Its called a Garrett Ace 250 and is relatively standard and a great workhorse, easy to use and a fantastic start up device.

    Are they expensive? -
    As mentioned above, that literally can go from €20.00 to €5000.00+ (some of the kit and units they use in the Australian outback for gold prospecting can be as much as 10k; with all the bells and whistles and additional didgeridoos!!!!) - A site worth reading about quality and cost - http://www.garysdetecting.co.uk/junior.htm

    I'm definitely more interested in the abandoned ruins around me, many of which I can find documentary evidence indicating a vibrant local community.
    Well, seeing as i have not seen the site that you are referring to i can not really make a "yes/no" remark; but to air on the side of caution i would agree with "InTheTrees" on this. I would imagine what you are thinking of undertaking would be considered to be an illegal activity and i think it would be highly advisable to seek advice prior to any investigation with a MD on any such site.

    Here are a few links that are most interesting and we worth reading over and through in great depth:

    MD's - http://www.detector-distribution.co.uk/index.html (this is the bunch through which i bought mine - great advice, service and delivery alike)

    State Acts -
    National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0017/index.html

    National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 2004
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0022/index.html
    &
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/acts/2004/A2204.pdf

    Ramifications - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/1003/1224255768813.html

    Hope that the above helps Rebelheart but as said, please always air on the side of caution. Let me know if you need any further info.
    Cheers
    IrlCasey

    PS: Spent 2.5 hours on a local beach today and pulled out about €8 in current coinage, 3 pounds 50p, 1 silver ring and bracelet and what looks to be a gold ring with inlaid stone - mind you i also collected a rake load of false signal ****e that I always collect and make sure it ends up in the bin!     So a good load of fresh air, the usual inquisitive passers by (who are always fun!) and a good walk; and a little to show for it - but most importantly, i was out about and having fun!


  • #15
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Anybody know the history behind the banning of metal detectors here? I was on ebay recently and there is an abundance of Tudor gold coins, for instance, for sale. Apparently this is because metal detectors are legal over in Britain and thus more aspects of their history have been discovered.

    I heard Pat Wallace of the National Museum of Ireland recently and he was dead against metal detectors being used in Ireland.

    But surely if they were legalised we'd discover much more about our history? I'd love to get into it.


    if you have Joe Soap digging up an ancient site he can also destroy more than he discovers.


  • #16
    IrlCasey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭IrlCasey


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    if you have Joe Soap digging up an ancient site he can also destroy more than he discovers.

    Hit the nail on the head Fuinseog - like myself, just stick to the beaches, there is loads of stuff to be found.


  • #17
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Sure, but you realise that would be illegal?

    I think beaches are the only place these things are allowed. Past vibrant communities are exactly the places they dont people interferring with.

    We have some ruins, also a suspiciously symetrical great big tit of a mound. But i'd be terrified of inviting the government in to look at it.

    I think the law says, you are not allowed metal detect for archaeological artefacts, and if you're caught using a MD you have to prove you were not looking for archaeological artefacts, which is kind of impossible
    Either way it's not enforced too much unless you are near a protected site


  • #18
    IrlCasey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭IrlCasey


    Hey FI, i see that Mr. "Grumpy" Grimmes has not tracked you down to this thread yet and banished you to the corner!! :D!!!

    ....but in response to your above comment, i personally would not feel comfortable wandering about with my MD near any protected sites but would rather take the approach of asking a farmer (who lives nowhere near a protected site) if i could have a wander about his fields.


  • #19
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    Hey FI, i see that Mr. "Grumpy" Grimmes has not tracked you down to this thread yet and banished you to the corner!! :D!!!

    ....but in response to your above comment, i personally would not feel comfortable wandering about with my MD near any protected sites but would rather take the approach of asking a farmer (who lives nowhere near a protected site) if i could have a wander about his fields.

    I stick to the beaches and mates gardens


  • #20
    IrlCasey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭IrlCasey


    Out of interest, have you ever tried knocking on a local farmers door and asking him if you could have a wander with your MD - i'd be interested on what their take on things would be like.


  • #21
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    Out of interest, have you ever tried knocking on a local farmers door and asking him if you could have a wander with your MD - i'd be interested on what their take on things would be like.

    I did it once and the farmer didn't have a problem, but then i told him i'd give him dibs on anything i find unless it's some kind of artefact a museum would be interested in. I found a few old english pennies and half pennies, the farmer didn't want them, thank god cos i was in the field most of the day :o


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  • #22
    IrlCasey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭IrlCasey


    That’s a fair enough lil find and nice that the farmer didn’t keep your bounty!; they say ever field has its coin.
    It's an approach i am considering more and more - even for just the variety and change of scenery. Don’t get me wrong, I love wandering on the local beaches but some terra firma would be nice to inspect; mind you so would small rivers.


  • #23
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    That’s a fair enough lil find and nice that the farmer didn’t keep your bounty!; they say ever field has its coin.
    It's an approach i am considering more and more - even for just the variety and change of scenery. Don’t get me wrong, I love wandering on the local beaches but some terra firma would be nice to inspect; mind you so would small rivers.

    Canal bank towpaths and river fords can be worth checking out too but I always took the lazy approach - beaches - and soon had a notable collection of ring-pulls and a sore back. :D


  • #24
    ignatius xavier pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭ignatius xavier pants


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    Greeting all, first post here. Having lived in Belgium for 17 years and spent many days in the Ardennes with my MD searching for WWII artefacts, very successfully, in conjunction with both historians and the local Police alike (as live and unstable ordinance was a regular find and required BDU intervention); anyway, so after 10 years being home in Ireland, i have finally recently decided to take up the hobby again and purchased a MD for the sole purpose of beach use. Having read the Irish legislation to great lengths and additional consulted both the Guards and a solicitor, i am happy that i can go ahead and find some random losses. As stipulated to my solicitor, in the unlikely event that i should find anything of any great archaeological significance, i shall of course document the find and inform the relevant parties. I have no interest in personal gain but more a walk on the beach with my young daughter "treasure hunting" as she sees it and some fresh air for us both. With constant shifting of sands and a maximum of a 20/25cms 8" depth probe i am hardly about to make any great finds!!! (Contrary to the belief of some individuals) Seeing as archaeologists general have to employ the use of massive earth moving equipment to reach their interests and in general consider the top soil of 30/35cms, archeologically void due to natural erosion and inland ploughing, my beach endeavours are hardly going to be of any great archaeological significance to them. However, that said, the experience that my daughter of 2.5 years old will extract from the excitement of small finds (contemporary coinage, rings etc - treasures in her eyes!), coupled with my respect for both environment (collect all found refuse such as bottle tops, ring pulls, nails, rusty objects, needles etc, always fill holes and follow the 7 MD standard rules etc) and the need to respect out surroundings, will hopefully foster a great future appreciation for both in her future. I will be more than willing to answer to any individual who approaches me on the beach and shall carry a copy of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987 - (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0017/index.html)
    at all times for reference. Show me one part of this legislation that says i can not own a MD, that i can not use it on an area that is not of archaeological significance, (mind you this area is very grey as the state does not exactly provide information to what is of archaeological significance, other than Tara which they are happy to tarmac over!) that i can not use it on a beach etc , I shall always use my MD in a responsible manner and should hope that others do so to
    “i have simply lost my keys Guard!”:rolleyes:
    Just my 2c worth.

    The state provides very clear information on what archaeological sites are protected through the National Monuments Service website http://www.archaeology.ie You can search the monuments database using the county and townland filters to locate all of the protected monuments in the country. This database is constantly updated as new discoveries are made.

    Copies of the relevant legislation protecting irish archaeology are also available on the website. While it is not illegal to purchase or own a metal detector in Ireland, you must obtain a licence to operat one. The legislation was originally conceived as a means of controlling the destruction to archaeological sites by organised treasure hunters engaged in illegally smuggling and trading significant irish treasures. In general archaeologists discourage metal detectorists as they tend to dig holes in sites unwittingly, disturbing stratigraphic sequences and generally making a mess. i have heard of metal detectorists accessing archaeological sites under excavation and causing significant damage.


  • #25
    ignatius xavier pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭ignatius xavier pants


    IrlCasey wrote: »
    Greeting all, first post here. Having lived in Belgium for 17 years and spent many days in the Ardennes with my MD searching for WWII artefacts, very successfully, in conjunction with both historians and the local Police alike (as live and unstable ordinance was a regular find and required BDU intervention); anyway, so after 10 years being home in Ireland, i have finally recently decided to take up the hobby again and purchased a MD for the sole purpose of beach use. Having read the Irish legislation to great lengths and additional consulted both the Guards and a solicitor, i am happy that i can go ahead and find some random losses. As stipulated to my solicitor, in the unlikely event that i should find anything of any great archaeological significance, i shall of course document the find and inform the relevant parties. I have no interest in personal gain but more a walk on the beach with my young daughter "treasure hunting" as she sees it and some fresh air for us both. With constant shifting of sands and a maximum of a 20/25cms 8" depth probe i am hardly about to make any great finds!!! (Contrary to the belief of some individuals) Seeing as archaeologists general have to employ the use of massive earth moving equipment to reach their interests and in general consider the top soil of 30/35cms, archeologically void due to natural erosion and inland ploughing, my beach endeavours are hardly going to be of any great archaeological significance to them. However, that said, the experience that my daughter of 2.5 years old will extract from the excitement of small finds (contemporary coinage, rings etc - treasures in her eyes!), coupled with my respect for both environment (collect all found refuse such as bottle tops, ring pulls, nails, rusty objects, needles etc, always fill holes and follow the 7 MD standard rules etc) and the need to respect out surroundings, will hopefully foster a great future appreciation for both in her future. I will be more than willing to answer to any individual who approaches me on the beach and shall carry a copy of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987 - (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0017/index.html)
    at all times for reference. Show me one part of this legislation that says i can not own a MD, that i can not use it on an area that is not of archaeological significance, (mind you this area is very grey as the state does not exactly provide information to what is of archaeological significance, other than Tara which they are happy to tarmac over!) that i can not use it on a beach etc , I shall always use my MD in a responsible manner and should hope that others do so to
    “i have simply lost my keys Guard!”:rolleyes:
    Just my 2c worth.

    The state provides very clear information on what archaeological sites are protected through the National Monuments Service website http://www.archaeology.ie You can search the monuments database using the county and townland filters to locate all of the protected monuments in the country. This database is constantly updated as new discoveries are made.

    Copies of the relevant legislation protecting irish archaeology are also available on the website. While it is not illegal to purchase or own a metal detector in Ireland, you must obtain a licence to operat one. The legislation was originally conceived as a means of controlling the destruction to archaeological sites by organised treasure hunters engaged in illegally smuggling and trading significant irish treasures. In general archaeologists discourage metal detectorists as they tend to dig holes in sites unwittingly, disturbing stratigraphic sequences and generally making a mess. i have heard of metal detectorists accessing archaeological sites under excavation and causing significant damage.


  • #26
    mollzer
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭mollzer


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Indeed the Derrynaflan Chalice was found with the aid of a metal detector but on a National monument if I remember correctly. The trouble with some of the metal detecting fraternity is that they are like the pirates of old and will pillage everything and anything. We already have things going missing from various heritage sites and metal detecting is a growing threat. It is the nature of the beast that they search for buried treasure they are not interested in history just dosh or hoarding items for personal gratification. I metal detected myself years ago but restricted myself to beaches - I found a few coins but even with a good metal detector ring-pulls were my staple find. So I would favour the continuance of the law on metal detecting which bans the use of from National monuments. :D

    Interesting transcript from 1993 Dail debate on metal detecting here: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0138/S.0138.199312020004.html
    It is a bit annoying that this change in the law had to come about because this Mr Webb and his son wanted money for their find!
    Anyone using a metal detector and finding something like this man did should have known the great importance the find held and handed it over to the state straight away! Money should not have come into it at all.
    So as you have mentioned Judgement Day the law is to protect against this sort of piracy. Its a pity for anyone who wants to take up metal detecting as a hobby on ones own land/beaches.


  • #27
    ignatius xavier pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭ignatius xavier pants


    re metal detecting:
    http://www.blather.net/blather/2009/04/gardai_recover_stroked_bronze_age_jewell.html


  • #28
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    ignatius xavier pants wrote: »
    re metal detecting:
    http://www.blather.net/blather/2009/04/gardai_recover_stroked_bronze_age_jewell.html

    Fair fooks to the gardai, and fook the guy who found it for making this hobbie difficult


  • #29
    martinciaran
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭martinciaran


    I would just like to point out as a regular MDer that only objects over 200 years old are considered of archeological importance, so if i find an object that i feel is over 200 years old (yet to happen as i only search beaches now) i will send it to the museum.
    regards the Irish times article http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/1003/1224255768813.html even though the they got my name wrong i was interviewed after the Anglo Saxon hoard was found in 2009 Eamon Kelly points out that hundreds of licences are issued each year but failed to add that if you are not an archeologist they will not even enter into conversation with you i have several unanswered e-mails letters and telephone calls under my belt.
    My only advice is to check out the archeology.ie site make sure your not searching a registered site, make sure you have permission from the land owner and if you do find an object of archeological importance report it with a photo and gps coordinates (most smart phones can geotag a photo for you) to the local garda station who will tell you to report it to the museum. Also if you do find the next Derrynaflan chalice please leave it in the ground and call the authorities it would do the hobby a great service if this happened.
    i think Ireland could do with a responsible club if just to prove there is a good side to the hobby in Ireland and rid the hobby of the stigma applied by people who neither understand the mechanics behind the hobby or have walked a field but like to quote the old rhetoric that metal detecting is bad. i will finish by saying metal detectors don't ruin archeological sites, people do and until people on both sides are educated then there will be no change.


  • #30
    darren foran
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭darren foran


    hi was in banna beach today in lovely sunshine ,a woman and her child were having a lovely time with a metal detector combing the beach,returned home to see where i could buy one, i am now led to believe this is a criminal offence with3 years in jail and and a massive fine,what the **** is goin on in this country ,can there possibly be any more red tape and rules and regulations ,no wonder people are leaving the place.i understand and agree historic sites are a no go,but surely people can get out and about on a beach or across a field where u have prior permission from land owner!!! :mad::mad::mad:


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  • #31
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the trouble with a metal detector is that you find the gold coin but you don't find the history. Take the coin out of the history and the history vanishes


  • #32
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    martinciaran wrote: »
    I would just like to point out as a regular MDer that only objects over 200 years old are considered of archeological importance,
    Not true, but the confusion is understandable.
    The term ‘monument’ is (under the Act) a
    broad one including, in effect, all man-made
    structures of whatever form or date except
    buildings habitually used for ecclesiastical
    purposes. It must be emphasised that the
    scope of the National Monuments Acts is not
    restricted to pre-1700 AD monuments.     The
    only provision regarding that date is that all
    monuments in existence before 1700 AD are
    automatically considered to be historic
    monuments within the meaning of the Acts.
    http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000154522

    It is a common misconception that if an artefact is less than X number of years old, it is not archaeology.
    Archaeology is the study of human history through the study of physical remains. Technically, these remains only need to be from the past - no matter how recent, to be archaeological.
    However, their archaeological significance is determined by the scope and subject matter of the enquiry, and the parameters are determined by the archaeologist/s engaged to carry out the study.


  • #33
    Debon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Debon


    darren foran wrote: »
    hi was in banna beach today in lovely sunshine ,a woman and her child were having a lovely time with a metal detector combing the beach,returned home to see where i could buy one, i am now led to believe this is a criminal offence with3 years in jail and and a massive fine,what the **** is goin on in this country ,can there possibly be any more red tape and rules and regulations ,no wonder people are leaving the place.i understand and agree historic sites are a no go,but surely people can get out and about on a beach or across a field where u have prior permission from land owner!!! :mad::mad::mad:


    Most of that is incorrect, don't be scared off by all this "grey area" legal stuff. There are plentyy of places to LEGALLY purchase and LEGALLY own a metal detetor. If, on the other hand, you are using your detector in a prohibited area and or are using your detector with the specific intent of locating objects of archaeological interest, then you are breaking the law and deserve to be arrested and your equipment confiscated.

    Contact these guys and they will explain

    www.amdai.weebly.com

    they are the association in Ireland


  • #34
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Debon wrote: »
    Most of that is incorrect, don't be scared off by all this "grey area" legal stuff. There are plentyy of places to LEGALLY purchase and LEGALLY own a metal detetor. If, on the other hand, you are using your detector in a prohibited area and or are using your detector with the specific intent of locating objects of archaeological interest, then you are breaking the law and deserve to be arrested and your equipment confiscated.

    Contact these guys and they will explain

    www.amdai.weebly.com

    they are the association in Ireland

    Metal Detecting to look for archaeological objects in Ireland is illegal without an archaeological excavation licence.

    The sale of metal detectors in Ireland for use in searching for archaeological objects is illegal.

    There are no if's or but's. There is no grey area with regard to this issue.



    National Monuments Act 1987 Section 2

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/...rint.html#sec2

    2.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section a person shall not—

    (a) use or be in possession of a detection device—

    (i) in, or at the site of, a monument of which the Commissioners or a local authority are the owners or guardians or in respect of which a preservation order is in force or which stands registered in the Register, or

    (ii) in an archaeological area that stands registered in the Register, or

    (iii) in a restricted area,

    or

    (b) use, at a place other than a place specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, a detection device for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects, or

    (c) promote, whether by advertising or otherwise, the sale or use of detection devices for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.



    Ireland is not the only country that has this policy re. metal detectors
    http://www.ncmd.co.uk/law.html



    There is a very long thread on the issue in the Archaeology forum with lots of detailed posts explaining the logic underpinning this policy.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055672868


  • #35
    Debon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Debon


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    Metal Detecting to look for archaeological objects in Ireland is illegal without an archaeological excavation licence.

    The sale of metal detectors in Ireland for use in searching for archaeological objects is illegal.

    There are no if's or but's. There is no grey area with regard to this issue.



    Absolutely correct, and i am glad to see that someone does not try to make "grey" what is actually "black & white" , the sale or use of metal detectors for the detection of archaeological objects is, and rightly so, illegal. The sale of and use for the detection of anything else , is legal.


  • #36
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Would it be legal for me to order a metal detector on Amazon.co.uk and have it posted to Ireland?

    EDIT: Amazon wont post a metal detector to Ireland.


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  • #37
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Debon wrote: »
    Absolutely correct, and i am glad to see that someone does not try to make "grey" what is actually "black & white" , the sale or use of metal detectors for the detection of archaeological objects is, and rightly so, illegal. The sale of and use for the detection of anything else , is legal.
    Not quite.
    'Anything else' - is very much a grey area, and very much stacked against the treasure hunter.
    In essence, anything which is, or might be of archaeological interest is an archaeological object.
    According to the definition below: if someone searched for a coin dropped by Charles Haughey, using a metal detector - they would be guilty of an offence under the act.
    the expression “archaeological object” means any chattel whether in a manufactured or partly manufactured or an unmanufactured state which by reason of the archaeological interest attaching thereto or of its association with any Irish historical event or person has a value substantially greater than its intrinsic (including artistic) value, and the said expression includes ancient human and animal remains and does not include treasure trove in which the rights of the State have not been waived.
    - From the principal and still operative, National Monuments Act 1930
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1930/en/act/pub/0002/index.html


  • #38
    Debon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Debon


    slowburner wrote: »
    Not quite.
    'Anything else' - is very much a grey area, and very much stacked against the treasure hunter.
    In essence, anything which is, or might be of archaeological interest is an archaeological object.
    According to the definition below: if someone searched for a coin dropped by Charles Haughey, using a metal detector - they would be guilty of an offence under the act.

    - From the principal and still operative, National Monuments Act 1930
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1930/en/act/pub/0002/index.html

    No, it is still as perfectly black and white, An Archaeological object is exactly that, irrespective of its age. To use a detection device for the detection of archaeological objects is illegal, detection of ANYTHING else is permitted.


  • #39
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Debon wrote: »
    No, it is still as perfectly black and white, An Archaeological object is exactly that, irrespective of its age. To use a detection device for the detection of archaeological objects is illegal, detection of ANYTHING else is permitted.

    True, but i think you have to prove you weren't searching for archaeological objects, which is nearly impossible to prove :o


  • #40
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Debon wrote: »
    No, it is still as perfectly black and white, An Archaeological object is exactly that, irrespective of its age. To use a detection device for the detection of archaeological objects is illegal, detection of ANYTHING else is permitted.

    I think the grey area is that you wouldnt know whether its of archaeological interest before you dig it up.


  • #41
    Debon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Debon


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    True, but i think you have to prove you weren't searching for archaeological objects, which is nearly impossible to prove :o

    No, Again that is a bit of an urban myth, but has some connection with the legality. If a person is found ON OR NEAR a protected or listed area using a detection device, then they would have to prove that they were not intentionally using the device for the purpose of detecting archaeological objects, and that would be difficult. That is logical. But in your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc. you would not. it would be illogical, The burden of proof would be with the prosecutor and that would be equally impossible to prove.


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  • #42
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Debon wrote: »
    No, Again that is a bit of an urban myth, but has some connection with the legality. If a person is found ON OR NEAR a protected or listed area using a detection device, then they would have to prove that they were not intentionally using the device for the purpose of detecting archaeological objects, and that would be difficult. That is logical. But in your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc. you would not. it would be illogical, The burden of proof would be with the prosecutor and that would be equally impossible to prove.
    The fact that it might be 'your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc.' does not preclude the finds from being archaeological objects - as per the definition of the 1930 Act.
    It follows therefore, that wherever there is the possibility of an archaeological object being found, a metal detector may not be used.
    Archaeological objects can, in theory, be found anywhere.
    Again, it is illegal to use metal detectors for the purpose of finding archaeological objects.
    If you search for archaeological objects with a metal detector, anywhere, you are breaking the law.

    Are you 100% certain that the onus of proof is on the prosecutor?


  • #43
    Debon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Debon


    slowburner wrote: »
    The fact that it might be 'your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc.' does not preclude the finds from being archaeological objects - as per the definition of the 1930 Act.
    It follows therefore, that wherever there is the possibility of an archaeological object being found, a metal detector may not be used.
    Archaeological objects can, in theory, be found anywhere.
    Again, it is illegal to use metal detectors for the purpose of finding archaeological objects.
    If you search for archaeological objects with a metal detector, anywhere, you are breaking the law.

    Are you 100% certain that the onus of proof is on the prosecutor?

    the finds would be identified as having archaeological importance AFTER the find . Don't get me wrong, i don't encourage anyone to purposely go out and seek archaeological objects, these scenes are in my opinion exactly the same as a crime scene, forensic investigation will reveal a lot of important information and any interference should be avoided and left to the professionals. However, to instil a fear in people that if thy were to find an archaeological object that they are somehow a thief, or criminal is not at all acceptable either lawfully or ethically. Your reference above that a metal detector is illegal to use whenever their is a possibility of an archaeological object being found is absolutely incorrect, In the course of my day to day work, i am supplied with a metal detector by my employers this is how i know so much about this subject, i got my employers to find out as i was unsure about using it. Therefore i am 100% sure as to the burden of proof.


  • #44
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Debon wrote: »
    the finds would be identified as having archaeological importance AFTER the find .
    In these cases, a metal detector has been used to unearth archaeological objects and an offence has been committed.
    Don't get me wrong, i don't encourage anyone to purposely go out and seek archaeological objects, these scenes are in my opinion exactly the same as a crime scene, forensic investigation will reveal a lot of important information and any interference should be avoided and left to the professionals. However, to instil a fear in people that if thy were to find an archaeological object that they are somehow a thief, or criminal is not at all acceptable either lawfully or ethically. Your reference above that a metal detector is illegal to use whenever their is a possibility of an archaeological object being found is absolutely incorrect,
    This statement is completely and absolutely untrue. If it was true, then metal detectors could be used anywhere, including national monuments.
    You need to withdraw the statement to avoid the possibility of misinforming future readers.


  • #45
    Debon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Debon


    slowburner wrote: »
    In these cases, a metal detector has been used to unearth archaeological objects and an offence has been committed.
    This statement is completely and absolutely untrue. If it was true, then metal detectors could be used anywhere, including national monuments.
    You need to withdraw the statement to avoid the possibility of misinforming future readers.

    As i said earlier, as part of my employment i use metal detection devices on a daily basis, it is legal to use, but not just anywhere, the only exception is national monuments and other areas specified in the act. I am not misinforming anyone here, the law is black and white, i think there are some people interprotating it themselves without any legal advice and posting messages on boards. I have never come across anything of archaeological interest whilst performing my duties but have been assured that if i did i would NOT have commited any offence as it was unintentional.


  • #46
    Riamfada
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    There has been a thread on this in the Archaeology forum that has been going in circles for well over a year now.


  • #47
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17561882


  • #48
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    jimmydetectors wrote: »
    <<--snipped SPAM post-->> Mod

    :pac:


  • #49
    JCabot
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭JCabot


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Would it be legal for me to order a metal detector on Amazon.co.uk and have it posted to Ireland?

    EDIT: Amazon wont post a metal detector to Ireland.

    Everyone is totally confused about the use of metal detectors within Ireland. They are legal to purchase and use but not on known heritage sites. Simple so you can use them on a beach no problem.

    Why purchase one on amazon when one of the biggest metal detector manufactors is based in Cork. Minelab in Bandon.


  • #50
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    if you have Joe Soap digging up an ancient site he can also destroy more than he discovers.


    that is the problem witgh metal detectors. Better leave it it trained archeologists


  • #51
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    JCabot wrote: »
    Everyone is totally confused about the use of metal detectors within Ireland. They are legal to purchase and use but not on known heritage sites. Simple so you can use them on a beach no problem.

    Why purchase one on amazon when one of the biggest metal detector manufactors is based in Cork. Minelab in Bandon.
    It is illegal to use metal detectors to search for archaeological objects, anywhere on this island, and that includes beaches and your own back garden.
    If you use a metal detector, the onus is on you to prove that you were not using the device to search for archaeological objects, and that is next to impossible.

    Those who feel they have a right to use a metal detector may well be confused because they seem to be unable or unwilling, to accept the law.
    The law is very clear, if you want to use a metal detector, you either need a license or you need to prove that you were not searching for archaeological objects.


    See this post for further information.


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