Defected!

ColmDawson · 10-03-2010 12:26am #1

I thought it might warm some hearts around here to know that one more person has defected. Not that I was ever extremely religious, but once I started actually thinking about what we were being asked to believe, the ball started rolling and I'm now proudly an atheist.

I told my folks over dinner the other night and I was slightly surprised to hear that they feel pretty much the same way as I do. Apart from being a little bit miffed that they had me baptised despite their lack of belief, I feel very lucky. I know that a lot of people don't get a positive reaction when they tell their family, but don't let that deter you.

Today I posted my nice little defection package (thanks, CountMeOut), complete with a strongly-worded letter. When I saw that the only postage stamps we had left were Christmas ones with a picture of Mary on them, I almost bought some new ones ... but maybe the archbishop will appreciate the irony!

Erren Music · 10-03-2010 12:56am

ColmDawson wrote: »

I thought it might warm some hearts around here to know that one more person has defected. Not that I was ever extremely religious, but once I started actually thinking about what we were being asked to believe, the ball started rolling and I'm now proudly an atheist.

I told my folks over dinner the other night and I was slightly surprised to hear that they feel pretty much the same way as I do. Apart from being a little bit miffed that they had me baptised despite their lack of belief, I feel very lucky. I know that a lot of people don't get a positive reaction when they tell their family, but don't let that deter you.

Today I posted my nice little defection package (thanks, CountMeOut), complete with a strongly-worded letter. When I saw that the only postage stamps we had left were Christmas ones with a picture of Mary on them, I almost bought some new ones ... but maybe the archbishop will appreciate the irony!

well done

CountMeOut
dismantling the catholic church one person at a time

Coriolanus · 10-03-2010 1:04am

ColmDawson wrote: »

I thought it might warm some hearts around here to know that one more person has defected. Not that I was ever extremely religious, but once I started actually thinking about what we were being asked to believe, the ball started rolling and I'm now proudly an atheist.

I told my folks over dinner the other night and I was slightly surprised to hear that they feel pretty much the same way as I do. Apart from being a little bit miffed that they had me baptised despite their lack of belief, I feel very lucky. I know that a lot of people don't get a positive reaction when they tell their family, but don't let that deter you.

Today I posted my nice little defection package (thanks, CountMeOut), complete with a strongly-worded letter. When I saw that the only postage stamps we had left were Christmas ones with a picture of Mary on them, I almost bought some new ones ... but maybe the archbishop will appreciate the irony!

Bualadh bos!

Don't be too miffed. You might end up in the same situation someday, unfortunately.

ColmDawson · 10-03-2010 1:31am

I really, really hope not.

Galvasean · 10-03-2010 1:43am

Congrats. I'll buy you a pint...

....on Good Friday!

Canis Lupus · 10-03-2010 10:25am

Quickly, hide him from Jakkass!

bnt · 10-03-2010 10:47am

Congratulations! If I have one piece of advice it's this: use your new powers only for good, for with great power comes great responsibility. :pac:

MilanPan!c · 10-03-2010 10:51am

Nice one.... More rationality is certainly welcome.

Dades · 10-03-2010 11:19am

So, do you believe there is no god, or lack belief in a god?*

* Please don't answer that

Dave! · 10-03-2010 11:23am

Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

Erren Music · 10-03-2010 11:49am

Dave! wrote: »

Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

I disagree, we are complete atheists to the christian muslim and other modern man made gods.

However did an original creator of the universe exist 13 odd billion years ago, or multiverse creator billions of years before that, I cannot say.

But the modern idea of God and his rules = 100% man made

Dave! · 10-03-2010 11:52am

ehh..... yeah, okay !

MilanPan!c · 10-03-2010 11:58am

Dave! wrote: »

Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

That's obviously not true.

Other people claiming something and me not seeing any evidence to back up their claims doesn't make it dishonest for me to reject their claims.

I don't believe a lot of things some people believe and I don't think their belief mean I need to accept that they could be right to be honest.

hiorta · 10-03-2010 12:07pm

Outgrowing an imposed theological condition which is often cemented by social pressures rather than any deep conviction, is a very difficult time for the younger person. As one who walked away from this same religious charade many years ago (around 1948/9) may I offer a word of encouragement?

There may seem - indeed it is likely - a period of a sense of loss, isolation even - which will pass. A longer lasting position which might bring a feeling of 'losing god' is if the theological conditioning you were subjected to, has given rise to equating 'god' and 'religion'. There is no natural connection.

Rejecting religion does not mean rejecting the Higher Spiritual power behind all life - which requires neither worship nor adoration, dogma and doctrine nor repetitive ritual, chanting or blowing smoke.

Take your inner freedom and use it wisely.

hiorta · 10-03-2010 12:48pm

Originally Posted by Dave!
Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

This must be so!

What we 'know' today will increase tomorrow.
As we learn more, our capacity to understand increases, enabling us to expand our current knowledge, which in turn further expands our capacity.....
And so on.
It seems to follow that we really only 'know' today - tomorrow we do not know - so agnostic seems the more accurate.

There is a risk that pinning an 'absolute belief' on, might also pin the mind to a position it may eventually no longer agree with.

PeterIanStaker · 10-03-2010 1:01pm

Congrats!

Flamed Diving · 10-03-2010 1:16pm

Dave! wrote: »

Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

Correct, although honest is too strong a word.

Erren Music wrote: »

I disagree, we are complete atheists to the christian muslim and other modern man made gods.

However did an original creator of the universe exist 13 odd billion years ago, or multiverse creator billions of years before that, I cannot say.

But the modern idea of God and his rules = 100% man made

No, this notion that Christians are somehow "atheist" to all the other gods is simplistic and crude, while self-contradictory, all at the same time. To take the same broken logic and apply it to agnostics is just as ill-placed and displays a faulty knowledge of what agnosticism really gets at. You cannot say that the Abrahamic god was 100% man-made. The evidence certainly points that way, but there will always be a degree of doubt, and in that wedge of darkness, lies the agnostic.

hiorta wrote: »

Originally Posted by Dave!
Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

This must be so!

What we 'know' today will increase tomorrow.
As we learn more, our capacity to understand increases, enabling us to expand our current knowledge, which in turn further expands our capacity.....
And so on.
It seems to follow that we really only 'know' today - tomorrow we do not know - so agnostic seems the more accurate.

There is a risk that pinning an 'absolute belief' on, might also pin the mind to a position it may eventually no longer agree with.

Correct.

ColmDawson · 10-03-2010 1:28pm

The reason I prefer 'atheist' to 'agnostic' is that it's a given that no one can know there's a god or isn't.

I'm a de facto atheist.

Erren Music · 10-03-2010 1:31pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Correct, although honest is too strong a word.

No, this notion that Christians are somehow "atheist" to all the other gods is simplistic and crude, while self-contradictory, all at the same time. To take the same broken logic and apply it to agnostics is just as ill-placed and displays a faulty knowledge of what agnosticism really gets at. You cannot say that the Abrahamic god was 100% man-made. The evidence certainly points that way, but there will always be a degree of doubt, and in that wedge of darkness, lies the agnostic.

Correct.

Christians only believe in one god. They are forbidden to do anything else.

I can say with 100% certainty that the abrahamic god is man made.

What I cannot say is that there was no universe or multiverse creator.

Stercus Accidit · 10-03-2010 1:34pm

ColmDawson wrote: »

The reason I prefer 'atheist' to 'agnostic' is that it's a given that no one can know there's a god or isn't.

I'm a de facto atheist.

I prefer the term myself despite some people interpretations.

Love the use of xmas stamps, lol!

Flamed Diving · 10-03-2010 1:47pm

Erren Music wrote: »

Christians only believe in one god. They are forbidden to do anything else.

I can say with 100% certainty that the abrahamic god is man made.

1) You don't understand what atheist means then.

2) No, you can't say very much with 100% certainty. That's the point.

Dades · 10-03-2010 2:31pm

I think (though could be wrong) Dave! was parodying another thread. :pac:

philologos · 10-03-2010 3:37pm

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Quickly, hide him from Jakkass!

I think if the OP doesn't feel like he's a Roman Catholic anymore that's his prerogative. I'm not exactly the staunchest defender of the Vatican myself, I tend to leave that to their members.

I do hope that he continues to think about the possibility of God's existence without putting a solid metal barrier over it however.

ColmDawson · 10-03-2010 3:52pm

Not quite, Jakkass.

Of course it's a possibility, but I think about the possibility of a god's existence in the same way that I think about the possibility of the tooth fairy's existence.

Calibos · 10-03-2010 5:24pm

hiorta wrote: »

Outgrowing an imposed theological condition which is often cemented by social pressures rather than any deep conviction, is a very difficult time for the younger person. As one who walked away from this same religious charade many years ago (around 1948/9) may I offer a word of encouragement?

There may seem - indeed it is likely - a period of a sense of loss, isolation even - which will pass. A longer lasting position which might bring a feeling of 'losing god' is if the theological conditioning you were subjected to, has given rise to equating 'god' and 'religion'. There is no natural connection.

Rejecting religion does not mean rejecting the Higher Spiritual power behind all life - which requires neither worship nor adoration, dogma and doctrine nor repetitive ritual, chanting or blowing smoke.

Take your inner freedom and use it wisely.

Do you know, I have even more respect for those who reached the same conclusions as ourselves in the past. I have mucho respect to the likes of Hiorta or my own parents who reached these conclusions in the 50's and 60's. Although we are well on the road to secularism now with each generation having less belief or indoctrination than the last, there is still a suprising amount of it even in 2010. Even as deep into the last century as the 50's, the Irish state/culture was uber religious. So I really respect the atheists from Ireland in that era.

And as for Epicurus all those thousands of years ago. That truely blows my mind that there were rational thinkers of that caliber during the times that these nonsensical religions were conceived of by Epicurus' bronze age contempories.

Dave! · 10-03-2010 7:32pm

Dades wrote: »

I think (though could be wrong) Dave! was parodying another thread. :pac:

Look what I've started

antiskeptic · 10-03-2010 8:17pm

Erren Music wrote: »

I disagree, we are complete atheists to the christian muslim and other modern man made gods.

However did an original creator of the universe exist 13 odd billion years ago, or multiverse creator billions of years before that, I cannot say.

But the modern idea of God and his rules = 100% man made

As much as 100%!

You should read up on atheist positions. Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion would be a good place to start. He's a dim view on folk who pronounce themselves a 7 on his scale of certainty however (as you've just done).

ChocolateSauce · 10-03-2010 8:44pm

We should celebrate by buying this hopefully over 18 person some beers.

Subtle, no?:cool:

ColmDawson · 10-03-2010 9:08pm

I'd love a Guinness.

MilanPan!c · 10-03-2010 9:35pm

hiorta wrote: »

Originally Posted by Dave!
Agnosticism is the only honest position to hold !

This must be so!

What we 'know' today will increase tomorrow.
As we learn more, our capacity to understand increases, enabling us to expand our current knowledge, which in turn further expands our capacity.....
And so on.
It seems to follow that we really only 'know' today - tomorrow we do not know - so agnostic seems the more accurate.

There is a risk that pinning an 'absolute belief' on, might also pin the mind to a position it may eventually no longer agree with.

Agnosticism is, like any other belief, an absolute belief.

It's faith based, like athiesm or and other religion.

Agnostics believe that god may exist, absolutely.

hiorta · 10-03-2010 10:11pm

Or, agnostics believe that they don't know for sure what tomorrow may reveal.

Erren Music · 10-03-2010 11:47pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

As much as 100%!

You should read up on atheist positions. Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion would be a good place to start. He's a dim view on folk who pronounce themselves a 7 on his scale of certainty however (as you've just done).

His view is the same as mine. It's the Biblical god that's 100% false.

ColmDawson · 26-03-2010 7:01pm

After an offer to meet up to discuss my defection (which I declined), the Church sent me a baptismal certificate, amended to show that I've defected. The thing is, it's not my original certificate. They didn't return the original.

Has this happened to anyone else here? It seems a bit odd.

Coriolanus · 26-03-2010 7:03pm

You're not entitled to it afaik.

You can't get the records expunged, since it records a historical event that did actually happen. You can only get it amended.

ColmDawson · 26-03-2010 7:05pm

Read my post. I didn't say anything about expungement.

They have filled out a new baptismal certificate, with identical details (except for the "Given this:" date) and amended it to show defection. They now have my original document. Whether that's been amended, who knows?

DublinWriter · 26-03-2010 7:06pm

ColmDawson wrote: »

I know that a lot of people don't get a positive reaction when they tell their family, but don't let that deter you.

My late Mum was told by the priest that I'd grow out of it.

That was back in 1983.

Coriolanus · 26-03-2010 9:54pm

ColmDawson wrote: »

Read my post. I didn't say anything about expungement.

They have filled out a new baptismal certificate, with identical details (except for the "Given this:" date) and amended it to show defection. They now have my original document. Whether that's been amended, who knows?

Ahh, so you want them to give you the original and place the copy in their files?
I don't really see the point tbh. Take a visit to the parish records office and ask to see it I suppose.

axer · 27-03-2010 2:07am

Nevore wrote: »

Ahh, so you want them to give you the original and place the copy in their files?
I don't really see the point tbh. Take a visit to the parish records office and ask to see it I suppose.

No he wants a copy of the original amended not a newly written baptisimal certificate amended.

I was not sent a copy of my baptismal certificate at all when I defected. I just got a letter from the bishop. I wonder can I request a copy so as to know they actually did amend the baptisimal cert? Its not that I don't trust them (well, actually it is).

axer · 27-03-2010 2:13am

Jakkass wrote: »

I do hope that he continues to think about the possibility of God's existence without putting a solid metal barrier over it however.

From what I can see when many athiests break free from the idea of gods existance implanted during their brainwash youth they tend to understand how ridiculus the unfounded belief was/is all along.

Defected!

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