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12-02-2010, 18:14   #1
craicindublin
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Fraud on my AIB MasterCard

Hey Folks, I am here to discuss this matter with you's and get as many suggestions as possible so here it comes...

There was a fraud commited on my Aib Mastercard in the begining of january i withdrew a tenner on sunday from tyrellstown TSB Atm, I remember it was sunday nite. Next day some ''ROOSTER'' withdrew 1100 euros from my account aspite my 1000 Euros limit on the card. I didnt find this out until next friday when i went online to pay my rent through internet banking.

I contacted AIB MasterCard dept and addressed the issue right away they told me Card is now blocked and my details are sent to fraud dept for investigation. Than a few days later i received a letter saying they are very sorry but I am liable for 1100 Euros + over limit fee + cash withdrawl charges. I went to the Police about it and they told me to contact my Credit Card company and ask for the following:

***Letter from CC company confirming the fraud with transactions listed on it.
***Which ATM was used?
***What time withdrawls took place?

I contacted CC customer care they refused to send me such details. In my 24 hour banking it shows that 1100 Euros was withdrawn from BOI atm in one night 200 on each attempt but no other information is visible. Police said its not enough coz it doesnt confirm fraud being commited.

I rang them again and they transfered me to fraud department finally i got a chance to speak to someone in there. That man knew the whole story and assured me that he will put in an appeal for me, today i got a call from them they said whoever took my money had my Card and PIN they said money was withdrawn from Cork not dublin (another crystal clear clue that its fraud) but the chap on the phone told me the card that was used to withdraw money had a chip on it and money was withdrawn through my Pin. I live in Dublin how is it possible for someone to withdraw my money using my card and pin when i had the card all along??

This is IMPOSSIBLE, i am not dumb i had a posession of my card all along which i still do but they wouldnt listen to me so in the end he said i will receive a letter from them on monday advising me to take it to indepandint financial adviser or something .... I asked him if i could go to the Police with the letter but he said its upto me whether police will get the person or not i am liable for 1100 Euros +the charges + interest + over drawn fees ..... I am totally gob smacked and i dunno what to do .. All i know is I am NOT going to pay this money coz i its not me who withdrawn it.

ANY SUGGESTIONS??? Sorry for the novel above but did this happen to any one of you ??? what should i do ???

regards
Sole

Last edited by craicindublin; 12-02-2010 at 18:19.
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12-02-2010, 18:21   #2
SoulTrader
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It's happened to me twice in the past year, once with my VISA Credit Card and once with my Mastercard Debit Card. I live overseas with overseas Debit and Credit cards but I wasn't liable for any of the fraud. Also, my cards aren't chip and pin.

The fact that your card is chip and pin is the reason the credit card company is holding you responsible. If the pin was used, they are drawing the conclusion that you were present at the time of the transaction, or had willingly divulged your pin.

If you are able to prove that you were not in Cork at the time of the transaction, you have a good case. To be honest, I'm very surprised that the fraud took place in Ireland. In my case, and other cases I've heard of, stolen information is sold online and used in a country other than the country that the card was issued in.

Interesting, I read this article this morning. Possible that this has something to do with the fraud.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rity-code.html

Last edited by SoulTrader; 12-02-2010 at 18:50.
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12-02-2010, 18:31   #3
craicindublin
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Thanks for your reply ''''''''SoulTrader''''''''
I was in work on moday from 9Am until 7:30PM i can prove that by getting a letter from work do you think it will help ??

I am also very surprised that how on earth can someone use my card with my pin when the card is in my posession and has been all along. I dont believe a word theyre saying but again they are a BIG company why would they lie?
Something is not right. I even faxed them letter asking them to contact Police and provide me details etc but they refused to contact police and said its my job to go about it not theirs i also told them that i will NOT pay the money which was fraudulently taken off me i am their customer for over 6 years or so and now i am thinking to change my AIB bank coz theres no way i am paying that money ....
Now i am waiting for the letter they sent me and see what it says i will keep this thread updated !!!!
PLEASE KEEP YOUR SUGGESTIONS COMMING !!!!

Respect
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12-02-2010, 18:36   #4
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The fact that they say the actual card was used is probably good news for you. Most, if not all, ATMs are covered by a camera and I'm sure that the Gardai will be willing and able to review this.
You shouldn't have to do the running around yourself though in fairness. IMO the Bank should be checking every avenue before making you liable.
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12-02-2010, 18:43   #5
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What reason did they give for rejecting the claim ?
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12-02-2010, 18:46   #6
craicindublin
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*****twowheelsonly*****
The impression i got is that they dont give two monkeys about how am i going to pay 1100 Euros back they just made their decision and theyre going to stick to it....

I asked the fella if i take their letter to the gardai will they investigate? he said ya they will look it up for you but i will have to cough up 1100 euros. Coz even if that scu***g will gets caught they are not going to recover the money he robbed off me so what good will that do to me as far as money is concerned??

In fairness what would you do if you were in my shoes ?? would you pay back ??

The though of being liable to cough up 1100 which was taken off me fraudulently is making me SICK !!!!
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12-02-2010, 18:49   #7
craicindublin
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*****jhegarty****
No disrespect Jhegarty but did you read my full post?

they rejected it saying money was withdrawn by someone who had a chip and pin card along with my pin number !!!

Its impossible coz i had the card all along and still do to this day ....

cheers
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12-02-2010, 18:49   #8
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You're welcome.

Honestly, proving that you were not in Cork at the time of the fraud might help a little, but it probably wouldn't be enough on it's own to convince the CC company to refund the fraudulent charge.

I know of at least 2 ways that information can be stolen from your CC. One way is for an unscrupulous cashier to slide your card through a 2nd terminal (before or after swiping it for your payment), which would be linked back to a criminal's computer, which then records the information on the magnetic stripe on the card. With this information, and a supermarket clubcard (reprinted to look like a credit card) they can produce a replica of your credit card. That's why it's very important not to let your card out of your sight, especially at restaurants, where staff may walk the card from your table to the cash register.

The other way is where someone can steal information when it is passing along the encrypted lines from the point of sale terminals to the credit card company, by writing a program and hacking into these secure lines. If you google the "Heartland Payment Systems Breach" you will find more information on this method. There is nothing you can do to stop this unfortunately! I'm almost certain that this is how both of my cards were compromised as I had shopped in the US a lot at the time of this breach, and I think this is one of the reasons I was refunded without question - it is entirely the fault of the CC / Bank's security systems.

For the first method above, the stolen information would not include your PIN, as your PIN is not stored on your card.

However, for the second method, I honestly don't know if your PIN information could be stolen. My guess is it could be, as your PIN needs to be communicated to the CC company to authorize your transaction, and would have to travel along these encrypted lines.

I can only guess that the reason AIB are being so hard-headed is because they believe you were negligent with your PIN. As explained above and in my earlier post, I'm not agreeing with them. Your PIN could have been stolen (in which case it will start happening to a lot more people very soon) or, as per the DailyMail article, a criminal might not have even needed your correct PIN.

I'm also surprised that they are not contacting police. Again, I assume this is because they're only interested in blaming you. If that's the case then, at the very least, they should provide you with all information you request in order for you to complete a report to the police.

Make sure you also find out the exact time(s) that the transaction took place. I could be wrong here but sometimes weekend transactions don't show up or get posted to your account until Monday - so it's possible that the cash was withdrawn over the course of the weekend.

Good luck with it - based on the information you have told us, I would certainly not be paying that 1,100euro to AIB. And do keep us updated.
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12-02-2010, 18:55   #9
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Sorry, one more thing - if you used your card at an ATM it is very possible that it was skimmed - i.e. a tiny reader was attached to the ATM which skimmed the info on the magnetic stripe of your card as it passed through the ATM.

Your PIN could then have been stolen by an overhead camera.

This has happened quite a lot in Ireland in the past few years.

If you did withdraw cash at an ATM, I'd say this is the most likely way. And it will happen to others who used that ATM also.
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12-02-2010, 19:03   #10
craicindublin
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****Soultrader****

No, they said the card that was used to withdraw money had a chip in other words they are saying my card that i have was used along with my pin. Thats the sense i am making out of their indirect conversation with me. I wish they could talk straight without cuttingt corners and avoid straight talking .... I am definately changing my bank i have made up my mind with refund or without refund i am leaving AIB coz they are Ediots theyre expecting me to cough up 1100 euros when they know i aint the one who robbed it .... I never had any trouble until now and the trouble i got is going to make me say GOOD BYE to AIB either way.

I will keep you updated.

regards
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12-02-2010, 19:48   #11
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There is no way I'd pay.

New legislation came into effect on the 17th of March 2007(?) when chip and pin came into effect pushing the responsibility on to the customer when the PIN is used. The banks are adamant that chip and pin cannot be hacked, but I have heard of customers accusing retailers of accepting cloned cards with PIN.

I don't have proof, but I dealt with 1 customer who said her card had been used in store with a PIN (as it would not have been accepted if the person had no PIN.) I don't know how that issue was resolved but it seams to me that that woman's bank payed up as she didn't return to the store for further information.

I still wouldn't pay but your only option might be the financial ombudsman.
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12-02-2010, 20:00   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulTrader View Post
Sorry, one more thing - if you used your card at an ATM it is very possible that it was skimmed - i.e. a tiny reader was attached to the ATM which skimmed the info on the magnetic stripe of your card as it passed through the ATM.
Most ATM skimmer just copy the magnetic stripe and cannot copy the Chip, the bank claim a chip card was used in Cork. YET..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulTrader View Post
Your PIN could then have been stolen by an overhead camera.

This has happened quite a lot in Ireland in the past few years.

If you did withdraw cash at an ATM, I'd say this is the most likely way. And it will happen to others who used that ATM also.
And if no other cards used in that ATM have been skimmed, this would be another reason why the bank do not think there was any fraud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craicindublin View Post
This is IMPOSSIBLE, i am not dumb i had a posession of my card all along which i still do but they wouldnt listen to me so in the end he said i will receive a letter from them on monday advising me to take it to indepandint financial adviser or something .... I asked him if i could go to the Police with the letter but he said its upto me whether police will get the person or not i am liable for 1100 Euros +the charges + interest + over drawn fees ..... I am totally gob smacked and i dunno what to do .. All i know is I am NOT going to pay this money coz i its not me who withdrawn it.
There are others ways that cards can be compromised other than skimming, Is there a second card on your account? Could some one have applied for a second card with out your knowledge? Do you live in shared or rented accomadation where your post could have been intercepted.

Last edited by GerardKeating; 12-02-2010 at 20:07. Reason: more info
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12-02-2010, 20:04   #13
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From this point forward, I would suggest all dealings with AIB should be in writing as this is the only form of complaint that gets the balls rolling.

You should deal solely with

AIB Customer Support Unit
Bankcentre,
Ballsbridge,
Dublin 4

This leaflet explains the process. Basically, if you are still not satisfied after the Customer Care unit have fully investigated, you can escalate to the Financial Ombudsman (formally Joe Meade who was a legend, but upon retiring last month, P.J. Fitzpatrick has taken over - no idea what he's like yet, but hopefully just as good).

One point to remember when dealing with AIB is that they are not the bad guy(s) in this. It is the criminal (gang?) who stole your money who are the bad guys. From AIB's point of view, they can see it is your card and your PIN which are the 2 forms of identification combined that are used to identify you when making a credit card transaction.


To look at it from AIB's point of view...

Even if you are not trying to defraud them (you must remember that they don't know you and will always have chancers trying to get one over on the bank), it is possible/probable that you were careless in some way or another (letting your card out of your sight in a shop/restaurant, letting other people see you enter your PIN or writing it down somewhere where someone can see it). From their point of view, it is very unlikely whoever withdrew that money did so without either your help or your carelessness.

Basically, some scumbag stole your money. You are saying that AIB is responsible. They are saying you are responsible. It can be a difficult one to prove either way. From what you have stated above, I think they should do more to investigate before making up their mind. Hope it goes well for you (and equally hope the thief falls off a very tall cliff)


P.S. Check your terms and conditions to see what it says regarding fraudulent use. I have an AIB Platinum Card which states:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIB Platinum Visa Card Terms and Conditions
23. Your liability will be limited to an overall limit of EUR75 for any losses incurred in respect of unauthorised payment transaction arising from the use of a lost or stolen card or from a failure to keep personalised security features safe. However, you will be liable for all unauthorised transactions if:
  • you intentionally, fraudulently or with gross negligence failed to adhere to the safekeeping and/or disclosure requirements of your Card, PIN or other security device or procedure; or
  • any Transactions were effected as a result of the breach of Condition 5; or
  • any Card is used by any other person outside the terms of this Agreement and who has possession of it with your consent.

Condition 5 referred to above states:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIB Platinum Visa Card Terms and Conditions
5. You must not:
  • let anybody else use your Card or your PIN;
  • disclose your Card number to anyone, except when carrying out a transaction or to report it lost, stolen or likely to be misused;
  • disclose, write or record your PIN or any other code allocated to you;
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12-02-2010, 20:06   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craicindublin View Post
In fairness what would you do if you were in my shoes ?? would you pay back ??
If it was me, I'd be fuming at the bank for them insisting that I'm liable. However, you will get nowhere with the front bench monkeys. Trust in the security surrounding chip and pin technology has been blown wide open recently. Another site gives some more detail.

Consult a solicitor immediately. Actually, because it was a business to consumer "transaction", see if you can file a claim in the small claims court. This will only cost you about €15.

I wouldn't be paying the bank that money. I'd be insisting that you were the victim of fraud because of their unsecure chip and pin technology. I wouldn't care ow much they claim the system is secure, everyone knows that it's not.

The bank will probably say ANYTHING so that they don't have to absorb that cost. Fight them and fight them as hard as they are fighting you. It's YOUR money. The banks gave you a false sense of security when they gave you the credit card. They said that it was secure technology. It obviously isn't.
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12-02-2010, 20:12   #15
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I just read this article today.

Quote:
Chip and PIN security busted
Alert Print Post comment
UnVerified by PIN attack undermines bank security assurances
By John Leyden • Get more from this author

Posted in Crime, 12th February 2010 09:18 GMT
Security researchers have demonstrated a gaping security hole in Chip and PIN credit card authorisations which undermines trust in the technology as a means to verify retail purchases.

Cambridge University security researchers have demonstrated how it might be possible to trick the card into thinking it’s doing a chip-and-signature transaction while the terminal thinks it’s authorised by chip-and-PIN. The flaw creates a means to make transactions that are "Verified by PIN" using a stolen (uncancelled) card without knowing the PIN number.


Fraudsters would insert a "wedge" between the stolen card and terminal, tricking the terminal into believing that the PIN was correctly verified.

It's not surprising that the attack works when a terminal is offline but it works when the terminal is connected too. Victims of fraud who complain of phantom transactions are denied refunds in cases where a purchase is PIN verified. The attack undermines faith in the banking industry’s claim that its systems are secure.

Saar Drimer, one of the Cambridge researchers, warned: "The technical sophistication for carrying out this attack is low, and the compact equipment will not be noticed by shop staff. A single criminal can develop and industrialize a kit to be used by others who do not need to understand how the attack works.”

The man-in-middle attack outlined by the Cambridge researchers doesn’t work at ATMs but it can work regardless of the amount spent in retail transactions. The security shortcomings apply to cards based on EMV (Eurocard Mastercard Visa), the most widely deployed standard for smartcard payments, which is used millions of credit and debit cards, mostly in Europe.

The research was carried out by Steven J Murdoch, Saar Drimer, Ross Anderson and Mike Bond, researchers at the Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge, and is due to be presented at the IEEE Symposium on Security and Privacy conference in Oakland in May (draft paper here in pdf). Researchers from the team demonstrated the attack in an episode of the BBC Newsnight programme on Thursday night.

"There is a gaping hole in the specifications which together create the 'Chip and PIN' system... The EMV specification stack is broken, and needs fixing," the researchers conclude in a blog posting.

"We’re really worried that if something isn’t done to fix this problem, and the many others we’ve found in EMV, other regions adopting it (like the USA) are going to make the same mistakes again and again – and that means customers stay vulnerable."

"That’s why again we’re arguing that Chip and PIN is broken. We don’t want people keeping their money in shoe boxes – we want the problems fixed. That means getting decent governance for the system that involves all the stakeholders – banks, regulators, merchants and customers." ®
From http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02...rity_unpicked/
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