Starting in journalism/freelance experience?

Lloyderz · 29-01-2010 5:24pm #1

I know there have been a few threads on this already, but not one for a while!

I just wanted people's opinions and views on the best way to get started in journalism? I have finished my journalism masters and would like to get more experience in journalism, particularly in sport. I worked in well known paper over the summer, which I really benefited from, but I am now really stuck where to look next?

Most papers and radio stations I have talked to have said, they are either full up or they don't take people in on work experience anymore.

jdivision · 30-01-2010 4:15pm

Get a story and sell it, simple as. Hit the phones. Sport is very hard to break into and lack of freelance budgets makes it hard.

Lloyderz · 30-01-2010 6:00pm

jdivision wrote: »

Get a story and sell it, simple as. Hit the phones. Sport is very hard to break into and lack of freelance budgets makes it hard.

I don't think it is as easy as that. Most editors I have dealt with, barely give you the time of day, and never seem to reply to emails. :mad:

I know this is as a stupid question, but what do you mean by hit the phones? Sport maybe hard to get into, but I'm not going to give up. I'm only young, so I'll keep on trying! I have a few contacts in the sport, so hopefully something will come up.

Are you a journalist yourself?

jdivision · 30-01-2010 10:30pm

Yes i am, have been for 10 years and unfortunately it is that simple. You have to get on the phones to get people to agree to be interviewed by you and then you have to get on the phones and find somebody to buy it from you. That's the life of a freelance. I did it for five years. As for not replying to emails, people don't realise how many section editors get. Personally I get at least 400 a day so I mightn't even remember yours but a voicemail or call will stick in my head, just time it right, don't ring just before deadlines. As I said, it's very very hard for freelances at the moment, staff who are leaving aren't being replaced anywhere and the freelance budgets are basically gone in a lot of places. It's very very tough at the moment but to get through it you have to hit the phones and get your name out there. I'm not trying to put you off, there's a lot of people out there and you can only make your name by working hard, sometimes for no obvious reward. You've indicated you're willing to do that by looking for work experience but Too many people look for that and then don't realise that most places afterwards want to see if you can make it on your own, can you still get pieces done, can you come up with ideas without being told what to do. And do keep trying!

claire.k · 02-02-2010 12:18pm

Hi, I am a journalist, and I have to be frank with you, there is no way you should expect to get paid for an article when you are starting out in journalism. The first reply is wrong, its not as simple as getting a story and selling it, it is about making contacts, finding a story and sending it to your local paper! The only way you get taken seriously as a journalist is if you have an impressive portfolio, and unfortunately, the only way to do this is by accepting that you won't get any money for your writing for a very long time. Start hunting out nice stories, or local grievances, interview those concerned and send it to your local paper, keep doing this, and you never know they might even give you a staff job after a while!

Although Jdivision is write about hitting the phones. RING or knock on doors, emails rarely work, they won't take you seriously. Also don't say "student" or "starting out" always tell them that you ARE a freelance journalist.

You shouldn't really focus on a specialty when you are starting out, just writing anything about anything! anything that will get your name on a byline.

turfthrower · 02-02-2010 1:46pm

Hmm, I'm also a freelance of around 15 years experience, and am a little uncomfortable with the advice above about not expecting to get paid.

I appreciate that things are tough out there, and it's hard for new people to get a foot in the door, but I do believe that if a story is good enough to print, then it's good enough to be paid for. The idea that people should have to work for free is slightly sinister to me.

That said, I will say that quality is a factor here - if you don't have experience, then the odds are that your copy is going to need work before it can be printed. Good editors will do this for new people maybe once or twice if and only if the story is worth it - but you don't want to wear out precious goodwill that way if you're trying to get established.

Freelancing is a business like lots of others - the trick is to come up with good ideas and then identify the media outlet that the idea would best suit. Then pitch it properly, having made sure that the outlet in question hasn't recently published the same idea - in other words know the market you're selling to. Time your pitch so that it doesn't arrive just as the commissioning editor is having a melt down on deadline day - and if it's a good idea they may bite.

They might ask to see examples of your work, and if you have good tight copy, send it in, but that's never really happened with me. Normally, they just commission the piece - the trick then is write your story and make sure it's extremely clean. Know the house style of the outlet your writing it for, and make sure your copy needs minimal work. Also make sure it fits the brief of the commission.

If you've done all that, then you deserve to be paid. If you're easy to work with, deliver on time and have good ideas, you'll get lots of work. If your copy is sloppy, not to brief, badly researched, late and you're difficult to deal with, you won't.

claire.k · 02-02-2010 1:53pm

I appriciate why would feel unsettled by the advice that I gave, but maybe it was different when you were starting out. These days, if you show enthusiasm for your first few months, you are more likely to get work. Freelance budgets are non-existent these days, and there is no shame in doing it for free for a while. You can't demand money when you have no experience or training. Some of the best journalists started off begging for column inches FOR FREE in their local papers, or a slot at a local station. Trust me, money is not the most important thing when you want to become a journalist, or at least it shouldn't be.

Plus, the others that have responded to this seem to make it look easier than it is, I am a hardworking girl, I am a good writer and I am polite, yet I have been trying to get really good and exclusive articles published in the likes of the evening herald and Hotpress and image magazine, and they never respond, which is frustrating. you just have to be willing to sacrifce a lot of time, and you have to grow a layer of hard skin, because no matter how good you are, it is tough to get anything published.

turfthrower · 02-02-2010 2:11pm

Fair enough, I'm happy to concede that things may be harder now than they were when I got my start, but people used to say the same things to me back then too.

I do remember wondering how the hell anyone made a living out of this game when I was struggling to get one or two features published a month - I literally wasn't making enough money to pay my rent, let alone eat anything. The reason was I was pitching for work to the same national papers everyone else was - there was a lot of competition for column inches.

So one piece of advice I'd give to people starting out is to identify a niche and attack your goal in a roundabout way through that niche. Not everyone can have big features published every day in a national paper, but you also don't need that. There are many trade journals and specialty magazines that aren't having their doors beaten down by newcomers and while the pay won't be great, you probably will get work if you make it your business to find out what they publish and how to pitch to them.

It may sound like awful work - who wants to write for a veterinarian magazine or for an industry trade mag? - but what you need to build up is a steady core income. Once you have that, you can afford to pitch for more prestigious outlets because you won't be depending on them. If you get one or two a month, then that's fine. Your goal is to build your reputation with the commissioning editors you know.

Over time, you can develop your reputation and slowly phase out work you're not that interested in for work you are.

GAN · 03-02-2010 4:16pm

I work in a national newspaper in a commissioning role, so I thought I'd share some thoughts on this thread.

Firstly, I don't think it's a good idea to offer to work for free - yes, we are all under pressure to keep our freelance budgets under control, but I can say with certainty that we have never turned down a really good story on the basis of money.

What's happening now is that the mediocre ideas that probably would have got commissioned a few years ago now aren't, but good ideas are making it, and editors still need freelance contributions.

So as a previous poster said, if your idea is good enough to print, it's good enough to pay for, particularly in a national newspaper.

In a nutshell, here are the most common mistakes that I've found freelances journalists make when they're pitching ideas:

*Pitching the wrong idea: in other words, pitching a story that simply doesn't fit the ethos of the paper. I work in a broadsheet, but on numerous occasions have been pitched pieces that are far more suited to tabloids. Don't ever pitch to an editor without buying their paper or magazine, and familiarising yourself with the type of content the cover, and the type of stuff they never cover. And make sure they haven't already run the piece you're pitching.

*Pitching at the wrong time: as a previous poster said, don't pitch to a Sunday paper on a Friday, or a daily paper at 6pm -- the editors will be up to their eyes and your email will just get ignored.

*Check your spelling! I have lost count of the number of pitches I've got with spelling mistakes, typos etc -- this really doesn't instill confidence in me about the writing ability of the person sending the pitch. Don't underestimate the impact that poor spelling and punctuation can have on a commissioning editor -- it creates a very bad impression.

*Deliver what you say you will deliver, on time and at the requested word count -- don't miss your deadline, check before you send the piece that it is delivering what you promise, and for God's sake don't overwrite!! I've commissioned 1,000 word pieces, then gotten 2,000 word pieces that have taken me two hours to edit down.

*Read the piece aloud before you send it -- you will catch 99.9 per cent of typos or errors if you do this.

So I hope that helps a bit. I appreciate it can be frustrating trying to get a start in the industry, but it can be done.

Oh and one final thing -- if you're going to do journalism in college, look for a practical course that offers a work placement. Both me and my husband (who's also a journalist) turned work placements into careers.

Lloyderz · 05-02-2010 6:48pm

Thanks for the advice everybody. I really appreciate it! But the one thing that I am having trouble with is getting the story ideas? Any advice? Press releases etc can only go so far!

And where can you get the emails for the relevant papers you are pitching too? I know they have them on their websites, but I don't think they take much notice of them! I have a few contacts but not nearly enough!

Also, every time I have sent a story to an editor in one particular paper I never here anything back. Are you better off ringing beforehand or sending the pitch in an email? Its gets very frustrating, I feel like I am wasting my time!

MrMojoRisin · 06-02-2010 6:55pm

claire.k wrote: »

[...] Although Jdivision is write about hitting the phones. [...]

claire.k wrote: »

I appriciate why would feel unsettled by the advice that I gave, [...]

claire.k wrote: »

Hi, I am a journalist [...]

May God bless us and save us then. :rolleyes:

jdivision · 07-02-2010 5:53pm

Lloyderz wrote: »

Thanks for the advice everybody. I really appreciate it! But the one thing that I am having trouble with is getting the story ideas? Any advice? Press releases etc can only go so far!

And where can you get the emails for the relevant papers you are pitching too? I know they have them on their websites, but I don't think they take much notice of them! I have a few contacts but not nearly enough!

Also, every time I have sent a story to an editor in one particular paper I never here anything back. Are you better off ringing beforehand or sending the pitch in an email? Its gets very frustrating, I feel like I am wasting my time!

Lloyderz, the ideas are half the job. It's spotting something nobody else has, or seeing a different angle in something that's out and moving the story on. Press releases? Everybody gets them, so nobody should hire you to rewrite one. My section would not have one story from a press release in it normally. Again, ring people, don't rely on email. You can ask the person for their email when you're on the phone to them.
I would also caution against writing for free, I don't think it's right. That said I had a student in a couple of times in last few weeks. I'd warned I couldn't pay her but gave her a few things to do and she has gotten a few nice clippings. Why'd I bring her in? She pitched me an idea, it wasn't a story really but it showed the right attitude so asked her if she wanted to come in and see how we worked. I couldn't pay her but I know what it's like when you're starting out, i gave her some documents to write up and now she has a story on the front of a section which'll impress people. I still believe however that if you're working full-time never work for free.

outandabout · 08-02-2010 3:05pm

I freelanced on and off for 15 years so a few quick tips.

1) Never write for free

2) Spread your net as wide as you can and don't be afraid to mix and match news, features, sports, business articles

3) Don't be too proud (some freelances are) to work for the trade or business to business press.

4) Come up with your own ideas and don't rehash stories that have already been published

ToasterSparks · 08-02-2010 3:32pm

Seems like some good advice.

Just a quick question that I also asked in the Creative Writing forum - if you have an article, how do you go about pitching it to a magazine/newspaper? Do you call/email? Do you submit a summary and hope for a reply? Do you send your finished article and hope they respond?

I'm a clueless rookie, so sorry if it sounds like a silly question.

jdivision · 08-02-2010 11:04pm

read the thread. There's advice there.

ToasterSparks · 09-02-2010 12:18am

@jdivision: I did read the thread, and I didn't feel it answered the questions I had. That's why I posted.

What I'd like to know is the ... etiquette (?) of pitching an article that you've written. If phoning or emailing is preferred, if submitting an article should be done first or after a summarised pitch, etc.

I understand the need to hit the phones to get stories or ideas, but should that also be the way to get your story printed?

monument · 10-02-2010 6:15pm

There's way too many students or others out there just starting off thinking it's ok to work without getting paid. And it's not only print. I've heard of people being strung along for months in broadcast with the promise of money or a job at the end.

Work experience is one thing but beyond that, in most cases, you're fooling your self.

ToasterSparks wrote: »

@jdivision: I did read the thread, and I didn't feel it answered the questions I had. That's why I posted.

What I'd like to know is the ... etiquette (?) of pitching an article that you've written. If phoning or emailing is preferred, if submitting an article should be done first or after a summarised pitch, etc.

I understand the need to hit the phones to get stories or ideas, but should that also be the way to get your story printed?

It depends. It depends on the editor, the type of publication, the article, the section etc.

Outside of news / daily sport etc, I'd say email first and follow that up with a phone call if you don't get a reply in a day or so. Others say you should always phone first and then ask about emailing.

Some editors will be more receptive when you're new to them if you have the story written up already. But even if you're sending in a full article have a pitch in your email outlining what the story is about.

And where I said above about not working for free, when you're new to an editor, I would exclude the process of writing an article without an actual commission / promise to pay, before the editor sees the results.

Mylesie · 10-02-2010 6:20pm

jdivision wrote: »

read the thread. There's advice there.

Didn't see one mention of creating a niche blog?

monument · 10-02-2010 6:23pm

Mylesie wrote: »

Didn't see one mention of creating a niche blog?

Errr... What?

Mylesie · 10-02-2010 6:33pm

monument wrote: »

Errr... What?

Newspapers are cutting back everywhere, so it's not very easy to find work if without some sort of record. While you are seeking work I would suggest you find a particular niche subject and start blogging?

ToasterSparks · 10-02-2010 6:35pm

@monument:

Thanks for that. I ask because I was lucky enough to get a children's short story published recently in an Irish magazine, and got paid too. I hadn't actually expected anything to come of it, as I'd just sent the story in with a quick email, and no expectation of payment.

As I'd like to try submitting more types of stories/articles, I just wanted to be a bit more prepared and organised.

Thanks.

monument · 10-02-2010 7:49pm

Mylesie wrote: »

Newspapers are cutting back everywhere, so it's not very easy to find work if without some sort of record. While you are seeking work I would suggest you find a particular niche subject and start blogging?

Right, that was not too clear in your last post, but, yes, I'd agree in general.

There's mixed views of the value of blogging in the media. On one side, I know of cases of people getting noticed or getting work after editors came across their work online, but this is not always going to happen. Keep in mind that at least it's good because you're speeding time writing and getting some type of experience.

ToasterSparks wrote: »

@monument:

Thanks for that. I ask because I was lucky enough to get a children's short story published recently in an Irish magazine, and got paid too. I hadn't actually expected anything to come of it, as I'd just sent the story in with a quick email, and no expectation of payment.

As I'd like to try submitting more types of stories/articles, I just wanted to be a bit more prepared and organised.

Thanks.

No problem -- You're welcome.

iamskippy · 12-02-2010 12:35am

claire.k wrote: »

Although Jdivision is write about hitting the phones. .

right

speedboatchase · 16-02-2010 1:06am

iamskippy wrote: »

right

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Starting in journalism/freelance experience?

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