Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Appeal

Options
  • 19-01-2010 9:05pm
    #1
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭


    Okay, I wish to discuss recent events. However, in order to have this discussion properly, I request permission to post all PM's relating to the matter here. As you will be aware, PMs relating to Mod / Admin business can be considered "official" and should be publishable in this type of discussion.

    If you refuse this request, I'll simply be left to assume that you realize how lacking your collective conduct has been.


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    LoLth
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoLth


    LuckyLloyd has already said pretty much all there is to say in his response to a PM from me advising him of his options and suggesting either an appeal thread in helpdesk or an appeal by PM.

    Lloyd's language attitude and aggression in response to a polite informational PM has shown beyond any doubt that the admins decision was correct in the first instance and that no satisfactory compromise or middle ground can be found between Lloyd and the Admins. Further discussion with Lloyd on this matter would be a waste of time and electrons. The appeal is closed.

    In the interests of completion the admin team have no problem with any PMs sent by an admin in an official capacity in relation to this issue being posted to this thread. I assume Lloyd would also have no issue with any responses to official PMs being posted?


  • Options
    #3
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    lol, I would be delighted for all my PMs sent on this matter to be posted here.


  • Options
    #4
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Beruthiel to LuckyLloyd; 12-01-2010, 14:38
    Beruthiel wrote:
    LuckyLloyd,

    It has been noted that you have been actively trolling a forum which you moderate example.

    A moderator is supposed to set an example for the users of the forum in which s/he moderates.
    As such trolling your own (or any) forum is not acceptable behaviour from users and is certainly not acceptable behaviour from a moderator.

    At best it sends a signal that trolling is allowed, at worst it makes any future moderation of trolling in that forum hypocritical at the least.

    If you feel that you would prefer not to be held up as a role model to other posters and you would prefer to continue to post in the above manner then perhaps it would be best if you consider carefully your decision to continue as moderator on boards.ie.

    Moderators are held to a higher standard than regular users, and, if you feel you are unable to maintain such a standard, then you need to let us know.

    Please take some time to seriously think about this.
    Thanks,
    [Beruthiel]

    Beruthiel to LuckyLloyd; 14-01-2010, 09:26
    Beruthiel wrote:
    Lloyd,

    Thanks for clarifying your position on the issue.
    We must have consistent rules for moderators and users (and admins) across the site, and it is our job to ensure that is the case.
    Therefore, with regret, we shall have to take the necessary step of removing you as a moderator.

    I'd like to extend the thanks of the admin team to you for all the contributions you've made on the Soccer forum, as well as the Poker and American Football forums over the years.

    [Beruthiel],
    (On behalf of the Admin Team)

    DeVore to LuckyLloyd; 15-01-2010, 14:53
    DeVore wrote:
    Leave this with me for a day or two Lloyd. I'll do some diplomacy but sending a response that reads "You do what you feel like" over a valid point of you seeming to troll the soccer forum, wasnt your brightest moment.

    Take a break, leave it with me for the weekend etc.

    DeV.

    LoLth to LuckyLloyd; 19-01-2010, 16:01
    LoLth wrote:
    Following on from a discussion we, the admins, thought it would be beneficial to inform you of the options available to you after recent events.

    You have every right to appeal the admins decision and the admins are happy to discuss this with you either privately (by PM) or publicly (on the Helpdesk). Ross is currently looking into another alternative but we do not have an estimate yet on how long this alternative will take to implement.

    Being removed from the moderator team is seen, by the admins, to be the end of the matter and will in no way affect your ability to use boards.ie as a user. If you feel that you are experiencing prejudice or unfair treatment, by anyone, then please make use of the reporting procedures in place and it will be looked into and dealt with as necessary.

    Additionally, being removed as a moderator does not mean that , if you so wish in the future, you are considered exempt from holding a moderator position again. It just means that, at this time, the admins agreed that you did not or were not willing to meet the standard of behaviour and/or responsibility required from the moderating team. The admins do realise that it is possible that this may change in the future. Indeed the time, effort and obvious dedication you have shown to boards.ie would be taken into account should the issue arise.

    thanks

    LoLth on behalf of the Admin team

    LoLth to LuckyLloyd; 20-01-2010, 10:50
    LoLth wrote:
    Your response to my PM was completely unacceptable and shows that there is no need to go any further with the appeal process. You are not suitable moderator material for boards.ie and the admin decision stands.

    To respond to an offer to re-open discussion, which you previously ended, with insult and aggression is not a good way to start a conversation and is certainly not a conversation the admins want any part of. Your appeal has been settled and it seems you chose to finish it by PM. I have posted a reply to the helpdesk thread you created (after sending your response to the PM).

    Any further comments or PMs or posts by you will be treated as being made by a user and are subject to all the rules and regulations users of Boards.ie must abide by.


    LoLth


  • Options
    #5
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    LuckyLloyd to Beruthiel; 13-01-2010, 14:04
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    [Beruthiel],

    I fully stand behind my moderating record with respect to all of the forums I help look after. I believe that a bit of fooling around every now and again in a highly charged forum like soccer can only be a good thing, so don't feel a need to apologize for the above post.

    I shall continue to post / moderate in the same manner I have always done. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you may take whatever steps you feel are necessary.

    Lloyd.

    LuckyLloyd to DeVore; 14-01-2010, 11:37
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Hiya Tom,

    I have no access to the moderator forum at present, so can't think of anywhere appropriate to discuss the below decision or appeal it.

    Needless to say, removing me for the post cited in [Beruthiel]'s original PM is all sorts of wrong. Can you offer any proper explanation as to what is going on here?

    Cheers,

    Lloyd.

    Lloyd to DeVore and Dav; 14-01-2010, 15:37
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Lads, very simply:

    I am highly disappointed by the kneejerk nature of the below, rather furious at the lack of a detailed or merely satisfactory explanation for the below, and shocked at the instant loss of access to the Moderator forum - i.e. the most appropriate place to discuss and appeal the below.

    Instant loss of access to the moderator forums is an unbelievably short sighted and cold way of dealing with an individual who has devoted a lot of time and work into this website. I have no interest in discussing this matter with Beruthiel via PM, nor have I any particular desire to talk about it in a forum like Helpdesk or feedback.

    I have things to say, and I should be afforded the opportunity to say them.

    As an aside, I am currently travelling back to Dublin after a few days where I have been mostly offline. I am typing this in an Internet Cafe. I will be fully back online from tomorrow morning on, and would appreciate if access to the mod forum is granted by that point so we can work this out.

    I wish to continue as a moderator, and believe that [Beruthiel] fundamentally misinterperted my PM response to her. Her decision not to clarify the matter and simply demod is reckless in the extreme.

    I don't know lads, but there is very little that seems right and fair about this whole business. Are you really willing to just send someone who has a real passion for the place packing in such a fashion?

    Lloyd.

    LuckyLloyd to DeVore; 15-01-2010, 14:39
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Tom,

    It might be silly, but I'm really upset over this whole thing. It's incredibly frustrating to have no avenue to discuss this reasonably.

    I can understand if you wouldn't have the time / wouldn't feel it appropriate, but my number is 08[removed] and I'd appreciate the opportunity to have a chat around how this can be resolved.

    I really want to continue as a moderator, I really don't want to leave boards.ie. I wouldn't have signed up to moderate forums or have spent as much time contributing to this place if I didn't have a genuine love for the place.

    Lloyd.

    LuckyLloyd to DeVore; 15-01-2010, 15:45
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    I'm not going to disagree that I made a mistake, misinterpreted her private message. But I don't think the severity of things were properly roadmapped from her end, and I believe I was not afforded a proper opportunity to clarify my position. It just seems far too sudden a decision on the part of the Admin team, and I mean it still hasn't been explained in any sort of detail from them!!

    But yeah, I'll leave it with you, and am hoping there can be some positivity out of the whole thing after the weekend.

    Thanks for your time,

    Lloyd.

    LuckyLloyd to DeVore; 18-01-2010, 17:30
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Hiya Tom,

    What's the latest on this?

    Thanks,

    Lloyd.

    LuckyLloyd to LoLth; 19-01-2010, 19:02
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    LoLth wrote:
    Following on from a discussion we, the admins, thought it would be beneficial to inform you of the options available to you after recent events.

    You have every right to appeal the admins decision and the admins are happy to discuss this with you either privately (by PM) or publicly (on the Helpdesk). Ross is currently looking into another alternative but we do not have an estimate yet on how long this alternative will take to implement.

    Being removed from the moderator team is seen, by the admins, to be the end of the matter and will in no way affect your ability to use boards.ie as a user. If you feel that you are experiencing prejudice or unfair treatment, by anyone, then please make use of the reporting procedures in place and it will be looked into and dealt with as necessary.

    Additionally, being removed as a moderator does not mean that , if you so wish in the future, you are considered exempt from holding a moderator position again. It just means that, at this time, the admins agreed that you did not or were not willing to meet the standard of behaviour and/or responsibility required from the moderating team. The admins do realise that it is possible that this may change in the future. Indeed the time, effort and obvious dedication you have shown to boards.ie would be taken into account should the issue arise.

    thanks

    LoLth on behalf of the Admin team

    Yeah, that makes **** all sense. I take it you will figure out why in the fullness of time.

    LuckyLloyd to DeVore and LoLth; 19-01-2010, 19:56
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Also, before I forget:

    - You have a team of 15+ Admins;
    - Said Admin team decides that a Moderator requires a warning;
    - Any of said Admin team can send the necessary PM message;
    - Said Admin team decides that the one Admin that rubs up Moderator in question should do it;
    - Said Admin team instantly runs with (what should have been an expected!) sarky response;

    I mean, how ****ing braindead are you people? :confused:


  • Options
    #6
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Oh yes, and Today's exchange:
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    LoLth wrote:
    Your response to my PM was completely unacceptable and shows that there is no need to go any further with the appeal process. You are not suitable moderator material for boards.ie and the admin decision stands.

    To respond to an offer to re-open discussion, which you previously ended, with insult and aggression is not a good way to start a conversation and is certainly not a conversation the admins want any part of. Your appeal has been settled and it seems you chose to finish it by PM. I have posted a reply to the helpdesk thread you created (after sending your response to the PM).

    Any further comments or PMs or posts by you will be treated as being made by a user and are subject to all the rules and regulations users of Boards.ie must abide by.


    LoLth
    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    Also, before I forget:

    - You have a team of 15+ Admins;
    - Said Admin team decides that a Moderator requires a warning;
    - Any of said Admin team can send the necessary PM message;
    - Said Admin team decides that the one Admin that rubs up Moderator in question should do it;
    - Said Admin team instantly runs with (what should have been an expected!) sarky response;

    I mean, how ****ing braindead are you people? :confused:


    Get over yourself buddy. Lets have the PMs posted in Helpdesk, and afford me the opportunity to make a single post. Your waffle about appeals being closed is pretty funny after the other line I highlighted to you yesterday being included in your previous PM.

    Anyway, to Helpdesk - onward ho!!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Now, to finally be allowed a public comment on all of the above.

    The Original PM

    First off, it is important to deal with the post in question. It originated from a thread produced off the back of a silly boiling over between two soccer forum posters. Seems to me you can do one of two things in such a situation:

    - immediately lock thread / yellow card / whatever and indirectly validate their dispute and silly "bet";
    - have some fun with it, allow the thread to turn into a steam release and indirectly let them know that their squabble really isn't as serious business as they might think;

    Beruthiel characterised my post as "trolling". If you read the post I'm responding too, I'm directly insulted, called a poor mod. Again, I could:

    - throw some weight around and yellow card / ban / get haughty;
    - throw in a funny gif. and realiise that we all want to release some steam;

    I still fail to see the problem with it, and certainly don't believe the post warranted a demodding.

    Now, as to the exchange over the first PM - I felt it was a precursor to a warning / infraction, and that it concerned the specific post / specific modding of the soccer forum. My response was intended to demonstrate the above, i.e. that I did not feel there was anything wrong with the post. I had been aware of a fellow poker mod being approached in the same fashion a couple of weeks previous, and he took the same line, and things were sorted out.

    I did not resign, I did not intend to resign.

    Decision on who sent original PM

    This just demonstrates that the admin team is...how shall I put this nicely: learning very slowly about how best to minimize the possibility of a confrontation. In poker I would never be chosen to have a word with Yuletired if the poker mod team thought it was necessary; we would be very clever in soccer to avoid controversial modding moves in threads we were intimately involved in as users.

    If Buffybot had sent the PM, there is no doubt that my response would have been more measured. Would have been clearer. Not anticipating this on behalf of the admin team is...wow; then failing to take it into account is hilariously incompetent.

    The Admin reaction to the original PM exchange

    Instant demodding? What? Time and time again in heated situations, when a mod resigns he is told to go away for 24 hours+, think about it, re confirm the decision. Clarifications are requested and provided. A middle ground is sought. And that is when a Mod explicitly tenders their resignation!!

    I didn't resign, and rather than the admins attempting to clarify, they hop the fence within 24 hours? Really!! That is incredibly reckless and immature.

    The Admin explanation of decision

    Or lack thereof. I have reread their PMs many times, and can only conclude that there is little explanation for their actions. If my modding style wasn't their cup of tea and they had silently totted up numerous black marks against me and had warned me a couple of times to reign my general conduct in, I could understand a demodding of this nature. But none of the above was noted in this exchange, and I certainly had no idea that I was skirting close to the edge.

    As such, I am left to conclude that I was dismissed solely on the basis of this incident, and I think that is obviously very weaksauce. If there is a substance to their position on this matter, it certainly isn't / wasn't communicated to me. Which is a bit lol given previous incidents that have dragged them into the spotlight as a group over the past few months.

    Respect

    Or lack thereof:

    - instantly denied access to the mod forums leaving no opportunity for discussion or appeal;
    - failure to address each of my PM'd inquiries promptly;
    - failure to provide elaboration on reasons for dismissal despite numerous mentioning of same by me;
    - eventual PM that somehow manages 'you can appeal' and 'our decision is final' in the same message;

    Wider Implications

    The people who mod here volunteer their time and energy. Presumably they will have a passion to improve the user experience for everyone who reads and posts in their forums. They ask for nothing in the way of remuneration, and next to nothing in the way of personal glory when the forum concerned is high traffic and acrimonious. This incident, particularly when considered in tandem with recent events, indicates that those entrusted with the overall running of the site do not believe that the above physical and emotional investment warrants a high level of courtesy, gratitude and respect.

    Now, the supply of willing volunteers far exceeds the number of moderator positions available. So, you can get away with the above. You can kick someone who devotes a huge amount of their free time here to the curb. And they will be replaced, they will be forgotten. You can get away with it, but it doesn't make it right.

    You can also hide behind a veneer of politeness, behind artificial walls of procedure and chain of command. What that leads you towards is the worst type of corporate feel, the most stinted and inflexible type of discussion, and ultimately a post board I have no real interest in inhabiting on a regular basis.

    Mostly, I'm just disappointed at this whole sorry business.


  • Options
    #8
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    behind artificial walls of procedure and chain of command
    Speaking as one of those 'artificial walls', ie. the sports CatMods (and noting that both of us were in agreement over this); you cannot be a moderator on one of the most contentious forums on boards.ie -- one where moderation is so heavy that you have to apply just to be granted access to the forum -- and spend your whole week editing posts, deleting posts, warning, infracting and banning users for breaches of the forum charter and trolling; and then turn around when you're feeling bored and just for fun, break the very rules you've spent the week enforcing on other posters.
    Fair's fair, and that ain't it.


  • Options
    #9
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,158 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Finally, I would like to officially submit this post for consideration. It is an extremely eloquent summation of this situation that I believe merits an official response:
    Kayroo wrote:
    First off, let me say that I do not seek to speak for Lloyd or anyone else and that my opinions are those of a concerned poster only.

    As all the Admins, and anyone who has read the Help Desk thread, will be aware the former moderator of American Football, Poker and Soccer LuckyLloyd has been demodded.

    I have no intention of getting into the incident that lead to the beginning of the confrontation but I do have a few questions and I chose Feedback rather than Help Desk to post them because I have a feeling that others may wish to weigh in on this issue.

    Issue 1: The Initial Response

    So far as I understand it, and I am open to correction here, the chain of command within Boards.ie goes "Mod ---> CMod --->Admin". In the present case their was no intervention or interaction whatsoever, so far as I can see, between Lloyd and the CMods for Sports, namely Uberwolf and Sparks.

    This gives rise to 3 questions:

    Why was this?
    Is it normal for an Admin to directly intervene in the moderation of any forum?
    If the answer to the 2nd question is no then why was it done in this instance?

    Issue 2: The PM Exchange

    The first 3 PM's between Lloyd and Beruthiel (which can be seen on the Help Desk thread in Posts No. 4& 5 paint a rather unusual picture in my mind. Beruthiel's initial PM seems rather unusual. Instead of simply clarifying with Lloyd whether his post was appropriate or not, she simply went down the formal route and scolded him. Lloyd's modding record in Soccer, and indeed across his formerly moderated forums, is exemplary. One poster who has been here since 2006 saw fit to start a threadjust to thank him for the way he moderates it.

    Given that, it seems unusual that such an immediately formal and certainly negative stance was taken to how he went about his moderation of soccer. Also, it would be well known to Beruthiel that, following earlier incidents, herself and Lloyd would not be on the best of terms. It would seem to be extremely poor management on the part of the Admins to place one of their number in such a position as to have to reprimand someone with whom she had previously had serious run-in's. If it was done solely within the powers of Beruthiel then it was simply a shocking lack of judgment on her part.

    In Beruthiel's initial PM she reminds Lloyd that moderators are expected to post to a higher standard than the average poster. If this is the case then surely this responsibility confers upon the bearer a corresponding right; that is the right to be given a reasonable degree of respect and latitude when dealing with matters with which they have been entrusted and for the Admins to respect them enough to discuss any matters they feel are unsatisfactory with the Mod in question without the normal strictures of the disciplinary procedure for regular posters? The second of these 2 rights I would submit is necessary to reflect the complex differences in how different forums are run. It is not reasonable to ask an Admin to understand the needs of every forum and every user and the Mods are charged with this task.


    Regardless, this issue poses 3 questions also:

    1. Why was an immediate reprimand necessary?
    2. Was the issue discussed among the Admins and, if not, why not?
    3. If it was decided among the Admins, what was the rationale for it?

    Issue 3: The Immediate DeModding

    There is a danger here of re-hashing old ground and it is something I wish to avoid so, for the purposes of brevity, I shall be blunt. Certain former moderators, despite massive User dis-satisfaction, were consistently and, in many if not most cases, rightly defended by the Admins on this site in the manner in which they moderated their forums.

    This reflected the general stance, which I appreciate is often maligned, that the Admins appreciate the fantastic work that Mods do for free and will defend them from attack, even in instances where that attack may be justified. This is not to say that the Admins are, or were, deaf to the complaints of Users, but it is reasonable to assume that they were also aware that the Moderators provide hundreds of thousands of free man-hours of work for this site that goes some large way to its success.

    With that in mind I ask my final, and most vital, question:

    Why is it that Lloyd was so rapidly and completely turned on by the Admins of Boards.ie?






    I have a mind to an answer but I hope beyond hope that it is not true. Lloyd has been truly a model Moderator, poster and contributor to this site. He has over 10k posts and I would wager he has more top quality posts on this site than any other poster.

    While it is of course off topic in the Feedback thread it was originally posted in, it is definitely on point here.


  • Options
    #10
    BuffyBot
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 24,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    Hi Lloyd,

    I'm normally loathe to stick my oar into another Admin's conversation, but as you mention my name I thought it might be pertinent to contribute here. I would have posted earlier, but our tech troubles kinds of put paid to that.

    I think the point here that seems to be missed is that this post alone is not enough to warrant a de-modding. But, as you're aware, we're not dealing with just one post. You know we've had issues with your moderating in the past, to such an extent that we've been in touch with you in the hope that you might consider your moderating style and make some positive changes. When that failed, we felt we had to take a larger step.

    So it's important to realise that it's not just this single post: it sparked it, but it didn't entirely determine the ultimate outcome. That was a culmination of all of what has happened.
    I did not resign, I did not intend to resign.

    I'm sorry to say this - but when I read "I shall continue to post / moderate in the same manner I have always done. If that doesn't satisfy you, then you may take whatever steps you feel are necessary." I certainly didn't imagine that you meant anything else. Surely you can see, that in hindsight this came across quite poorly - a "I'm changing nothing, so screw it" vibe is was what hit me when I saw it, that's for sure. We all have to take some feedback - it's the nature of a hierarchical structure. We might not like it, or sometimes agree with it: but responding to it like that doesn't help at all.

    Regarding "who sent the PM", I get the impression you feel that there was some kind of cabaal of Admins going "Let's sic Beruthiel on him". It's not the case, it's simply not how it works. We pick things up as we're free, what else we're doing and when they get escalated to us: it could easily have been me, Asiaprod, Sparky etc. This time Beruthiel took on this particular issue. It has nothing to do with outside factors: it's just how the random luck panned out.

    With regard to the communication issue: would I have done it differently - no doubt. That's just because we all have individual styles. Would my response have been the same to the "I shall continue.." message. Yes, it would. That response killed much of the good feeling on the Admin team towards you (and yes, there was some), while your following ones pretty much jumped up and down on it's grave. I'm sorry to say that while there may be flaws on our part, you have to recognise that you contributed somewhat to your own demise here. Even if you had an issue with the PM sender, the wiser choice would not to have responded in such a way at all. In the cold light of day, I'm hoping that you see that. Now might also be a good time to point out that this issue was raised to us by a member of the moderation team, not something we sought out or checked up on: a point, I think that is worth clarifying.

    To move onwards: I'm assuming that you mention me as some perceived voice of reason - I'm flattered if that's the case and embarrassed if I have misread it ;)

    If that really is the case, instead of replying in the style that you did, you could taken the offer given of some time to think and come to me directly and asked for some assistance. I certainly would have given you some guidance and probably intervened on your behalf. However, you didn't: you decided to meet a message you perceived as harsh or blunt with guns blazing and then had a shoot out that no one can win in. That's not reflecting totally upon you: but it's a big factor in what has occured.
    Instant demodding? What? Time and time again in heated situations, when a mod resigns he is told to go away for 24 hours+, think about it, re confirm the decision.

    That isn't always the case: if someone goes on bad terms then we tend to remove all access asap in order to stop any mischief from taking place. If it's a Mod resigning of their own free will in a calm and reasoned way, we tend to try and meet that and work with them. However if it's not a mutual decision, of course Mod rights will be removed straight away - this isn't specific to you. It's something we've done before, and we'll have to do again no doubt.

    With regard to you being "surprised" that you were "skirting on the edge": I'm a little surprised at that myself. I can't imagine that you felt we were happy with your behaviours after the first incident in which Tom Dunne contacted you about. We also posted at length in the Mods forum about the behaviours we expected from Mods and that if people exhibited such behaviours, they could expect we would apply some sort of sanction. Perhaps we could have been clearer in that communication, but I think it certainly was there. I doubt you are unreasonable enough to expect us to let people carry on regardless, irrespective of what they do? I'd hope not: you don't strike me as the type.
    - instantly denied access to the mod forums leaving no opportunity for discussion or appeal;

    The forum isn't for appealing, which I think you know. A user wouldn't be allowed to debate their ban in a forum. This follows the same logic.

    PM is the person-to-person communication system in vBulletin. It's an imperfect beast for things like this, but we have to make the best of it. You've chosen to bring this to Help Desk, which is your choice. Personally I hate airing dirty laundry in public, but I'm just a private sort of guy ;)
    - failure to address each of my PM'd inquiries promptly;

    You can have prompt, or you can have thorough. Bearing in mind that not all the Admins are around all the time and sometimes discussion takes time, I also get the feeling that had people responded asap, we'd be having a discussion that they were dismissive of you and didn't give the issue sufficient attention. I think it's a no win situation. Would you have preferred immediate responses, ignoring those Admins who were vaguely supportive of you, or trying to find alternative options? I'd doubt it, somehow.
    - failure to provide elaboration on reasons for dismissal despite numerous mentioning of same by me;

    Again, if you feel we could have been clearer (such as listing out x, y and z), then perhaps we could have been. We will take that on board and look at it for the future.
    The people who mod here volunteer their time and energy. Presumably they will have a passion to improve the user experience for everyone who reads and posts in their forums. They ask for nothing in the way of remuneration, and next to nothing in the way of personal glory when the forum concerned is high traffic and acrimonious. This incident, particularly when considered in tandem with recent events, indicates that those entrusted with the overall running of the site do not believe that the above physical and emotional investment warrants a high level of courtesy, gratitude and respect.

    I think the first half of that is true, and it's a view we share. The second, is something I'd disagree on. If we were believed it didn't warrant such things, we would just boot people off, with no communication and/or consideration apart from a "thank you, good luck mail". I've been in communities where that is SOP. Granted the communication in this situation hasn't been to your satisfaction, which is never ideal - but as a whole we respect and are immensely grateful to our Mods. However, part and parcel of our role is make unpopular choices: and time and time again has shown there is no way to do that that won't upset someone. We'd love it to be different, but we must be realistic too.
    You can also hide behind a veneer of politeness, behind artificial walls of procedure and chain of command. What that leads you towards is the worst type of corporate feel, the most stinted and inflexible type of discussion, and ultimately a post board I have no real interest in inhabiting on a regular basis.

    I'll be blunt with you: when I read that I just wanted to cringe and go "stop", similar to when I saw the comments you made in the PM's quoted above. I've no doubt your intentions were good, but there are ways and means of doing things. There is always an alternative way around - going for some perceived jugular rarely does anything constructive (and applies equally across the board).

    Structure and procedure is necessary in any organisation this complex, and on the whole it neither stints the majority of discussion this site, nor puts a rigid structure upon them. For the most part it works - not perfectly - but it works. It's an evolving, living thing that will change time and time again. Without it, however, the whole thing collapses. I suspect you know that too, and are feeling more angry at the action than the structure itself.

    The future of your membership is something that only you can decide upon. I'm neither so presumptuous to think that my message here will suddenly appease all your concerns, nor that it will answer every question that you have - but I'm hoping it's touched on most of the main points in your post.

    What it will make us do (and in tandem with the thread in Feedback I've raised as a general discussion to collate peoples comments and ideas so that they can be discussed) is look at how we processes these things in the future - cold comfort, to you I don't doubt, but it ties into my evolution comment above. I think both sides have some reflection to do, but does it change the ultimate outcome right now? No, it doesn't. I'm sorry that it has come to this - but I think that the right decision was made in the end with all that happened, even if the process was flawed.

    Anyway, this is possibly the longest response I've ever typed on boards, so I'll shut up now.


Advertisement