Nationalism and the Irish Language

Valmont · 17-12-2009 8:02pm #1

I have been grappling with this issue for a while and have had many interesting discussions about it with work-mates.

Why exactly does the state sponsorship of the Irish language amount to nationalism? If it does, in what context is it a bad thing? I'm confused as the answer is open to different interpretations depending on what definition of nationalism is used.

Is the teaching of Irish history also nationalistic in nature? If we have an obligation to learn about the events and time periods that lead to the establishment of the Irish republic, why not an equal obligation to the Irish language?

Sorry I don't have really have my own opinion to contribute but I am still trying to figure out where I stand on the issue. Thanks.

Bigdeadlydave · 17-12-2009 8:54pm

Well yes it is nationalistic. The government is attempting to promote Ireland and its history, to give us something that is unique, and an understanding of the past is essential imho. Personally I think nationalism is a good thing, although many people have exploited nationalist sentiment to carry out actions that further their own agendas. Its like everything, when its taken to extremes its bad.

Valmont · 17-12-2009 10:30pm

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Its like everything, when its taken to extremes its bad.

Do you think that spending lots of public funds on Irish is an extreme form of nationalism? Bearing in mind that there are no tangible benefits to the economy from promoting such a program.

Bigdeadlydave · 17-12-2009 11:07pm

No, by extreme I meant bombings etc....

eleanoroosevelt · 27-12-2009 10:20pm

Irish people lost alot of their nationalism in latter years. This is a pity and Irish being compulsory is a negative thing because when people are forced into something, they rebel againest it. People have to want to learn Irish, want to appreciate their cultural heritage and we need to desire to express ourselves as through our irish identity. You can't force nationalistic pride upon people, it develops over time and due to circumstances.
Personally I would like to see irish people proud of their language and proud of their history. We need not to glorify violence as the anwser to problems we see as beyond our control. I do think pride of our language and pride of our cultural heritage go hand in hand.

Valmont · 28-12-2009 1:13am

Why is Irish taught compulsorily? Is there an officially stated purpose for the entire endeavor?

Permabear · 28-12-2009 12:11pm

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Valmont · 28-12-2009 10:12pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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In my peer group I find there is an unquestioning acceptance of Irish as a compulsory subject. Even suggesting that Irish is a waste of valuable class time that would be better spent on other subjects seems to be a faux pas. When I have pressed people to explain its value to me, I have yet to receive anything more than "it's a very important part of our culture" and "it teaches language skills". This whole topic has been driving me mad the last few weeks.

foxcomm · 29-12-2009 6:48am

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Permabear · 29-12-2009 12:01pm

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Eliot Rosewater · 29-12-2009 1:09pm

I find the "preservation of culture/heritage" argument to be mostly ridiculous. People can be amazingly selective in what they consider their heritage when arguing that point. How many of your peer group have read an Irish author in the last year? How many ever? How many of your peer group have explored a bit of Irish mythology lately?

In my case the answer is very few. Which is highly disappointing as Irish literature written in English has certainly had a more profound international impact than the Irish language or G.A.A. So when I hear the "preserve your culture" argument I sigh because the people making usually make no attempt to engage in modern Irish culture such a literature. Its just conservatism, nothing more.

Permabear · 29-12-2009 1:52pm

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muinteoirTomas · 30-12-2009 12:48am

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I find the "preservation of culture/heritage" argument to be mostly ridiculous. People can be amazingly selective in what they consider their heritage when arguing that point. How many of your peer group have read an Irish author in the last year? How many ever? How many of your peer group have explored a bit of Irish mythology lately?

In my case the answer is very few. Which is highly disappointing as Irish literature written in English has certainly had a more profound international impact than the Irish language or G.A.A. So when I hear the "preserve your culture" argument I sigh because the people making usually make no attempt to engage in modern Irish culture such a literature. Its just conservatism, nothing more.

Ok, I may be biast 'ach a mhalairt!' I absolutely persevere in buying Irish as much as possible - in every way; including Irish authors, we have a lot of them to choose from and a wide variety of genres.

As I said, my reply might be biast as to 'how many of your peer group have explored...' - all my friends have, but I'm a primary teacher and we took the OPTIONAL course in college of Gaeilge.

This debate on comp. Irish will go on forever it seems, but as someone who has studied the reasons for it, the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages if you only even look at it from a purely learning experience: Chidlren who study Irish before a 3rd modern language in secondary school find the 3rd language much easier to acquire - proven fact (source the iilt website) - will get definate link from college notes later.

Moreover, it is actually Europe who are applauding Ireland for ensuring that Irish is taught - the European average is Mother tongue + 2 other languages, which is what we are doing - either Irish or English as mother tongue + 1 modern language in secondary school = 3 languages; european average satisfied.

I was not raised any where a gaeltacht, neither of my parents have brilliant Gaeilge but I absolutely couldn't imagine what my life would be like without Gaeilge! It is such part and parcel of my day, my life that I genuinely can't imagine what it would be like not to have it, and I thank God that I do!

I truly believe that it is the teachers who should be apraisled in concerns the Irish and more importantly, their ATTITUDES towards the language.
When I was in primary and secondary school, I had brilliant Irish teachers who seriously loved the language, and they instilled that in me to this day. I hope that I am instilling that in my pupils. It really is the attitude of people that has to change and this starts in the schools - primary, secondary is too late.

As to the original statement on the forum, of course the promotion of the Irish language is linked to nationalism, but as you so rightly said, it depends on your defination of nationalism. Being proud of your country and looking to its past, present and future welfare merits an investment in Irish! The true meath na Gaeilge - decline of Irish - is relatively new (the last 150 + years) if you think that Gaeilge has been spoken for thousands of years, another reason to be proud of it - Irish is one of the oldest languages still in use today, I can't remember exactly from my history of Irish lectures but I think it is around 3500 years old, although it has gone through some changes (as all languages have), the root of the language is the oldest in world still spolen today!

Open the forum to a bit more discussion, eh!
None of the above was intended to offend, I was merely giving my opinion and experience.

Wibbs · 31-12-2009 3:36pm

muinteoirTomas wrote: »

Irish is one of the oldest languages still in use today, I can't remember exactly from my history of Irish lectures but I think it is around 3500 years old, although it has gone through some changes (as all languages have), the root of the language is the oldest in world still spolen today!

That's a dubious claim and not really a helpful one IMHO. It's an indo european language, like latin, greek, french spanish english etc. It's not the oldest still spoken in the world. Hebrew would be older, as would Chinese to name but two. Not to mention Kalahari bushmen language which appears to have had little outside influence for a very long time.

It's not even the oldest in Europe. Basque/Euskara is far far older. It's not an indo european language for a start. Plus as you say it has changed over time like all languages. Could you understand old Irish? I'd warrant about as much as I could understand old English. If you look at how languages do evolve one could equally claim that modern Italian is "new" latin(as is Spanish) and ancient greek isn't that much removed from modern. While it's good to keep languages vital and alive, the claim of great age does little to help again IMHO.

As to the original statement on the forum, of course the promotion of the Irish language is linked to nationalism, but as you so rightly said, it depends on your defination of nationalism. Being proud of your country and looking to its past, present and future welfare merits an investment in Irish!

And that's fine and dandy. My issue with it is how the notion of irishness and the language became interlinked and how it has been forced down peoples craws and badly. When the British left, a lot of what was considered english/west brit was excised and not always usefully. Many institutions and ideals that didnt follow the new "Irish" ideal got left behind. IMHO a good example of this is the natural history museum. It's pickled in aspic. A late Victorian/edwardian museum. A museum of a museum indeed. No new exhibits or precious few since the foundation of the state. Georgian buildings didnt even have preservation orders on them until the late 80's as they were another example of the "english" past. This went for the school curriculum too. Subjects/pursuits that were considered too "english" were dropped in favour of "irish" ones(and Irish Catholic ones too). The language was propped up on the back of that. Especially outside of (union) jackeen Dublin. There was a time not so long ago that attending trinity college was considered not exactly ok.

I have no issue with the Irish language itself. It is but a means of communication and like all such have value. I have an issue with the notion of it being forced upon us, I have an issue with the resources that have been wasted on its promotion(and it was wasted as we're not conversing in it now), and I have an issue as to what we lost in this headlong rush to create a future while possibly losing much of a past we're not comfortable with. IMHO it will live and grow and thrive as a vital language only if the Irish people wish it and use it and not pay lip service to it.

foxcomm · 01-01-2010 3:24am

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thebman · 01-01-2010 3:57am

Its called cultural evolution. Irish is irrelevant. It may be nice to some but its a niche overall.

You can't argue most speak it as most don't, cultural evolution.

Not speaking it does not make one not Irish as some would scream like lunatics. Its a language and was once part of our culture but is Irish is irrelevant to most and can't really be claimed to be culturally important IMO.

For one thing, cultures should be allowed to evolve, anything else is forcing things on people that they don't want to know. You could argue the same was done with English but we that was the past and we are where we are and Irish isn't a part of that for most.

Leave it to the niches and let those who want to learn it, learn it. The rest of us will get by fine without it IMO.

silverharp · 01-01-2010 10:34am

As a parent I am firmly in the camp that the only consideration should be the interests of the child. I'm sure everyone remembers from school that there was always 5 or 6 kids that would have been struggling so instead of them getting extra tuition in the 3Rs they were given an extra opportunity to fail at something. Great for child development eh!

One of the posters mentioned the advantages of learning a language early, which is true but it doesnt give any weight to the argument that it should be Irish. Surely the answer should have been more gael schools which there seems to be demand for and more schools that offer continental languages in primary school.

In my own case my son is going to the German school in Dublin as he is bilingual, and to be honest I will resent the fact that he will have to learn Irish as it will displace an educational choice which I am in a much better place to make compared to some suit in the dept of education.

metrovelvet · 01-01-2010 11:01am

I fully agree with you silverfish. Id much rather my son learn German, French, even Latin than Irish. Hes not even Irish. They should hold a referendum on forced Irish. Its not right. If it were the nations fist language you wouldnt have to go to school to learn it.

Permabear · 01-01-2010 12:25pm

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Wibbs · 01-01-2010 2:12pm

foxcomm wrote: »

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As donegalfella pointed out, try like that journo to get through the day in this country purely in Irish. Outside of small enclaves of the language, you simple can't. The 25% on the census is down to some weird Irish embarrassment about the language. They've bought into the idea that it makes them less "Irish" if they can't speak it so they quite simply lie when they tick the box.

Being irish is not about speaking a language, its more about your attitude towards your own country and its promotion through its games, language and culture.

Cool. I just have an issue with the conceit of the "irish" culture largely forced upon us and indeed somewhat invented too.

and to solve your problem with teaching irish in school, get an 'F' in protest. I don't see the point in teaching French, Accountancy, Woodwork, Technical Drawing, Chemistry, Physics etc as I never planned to use any of them..

Again as donegalfella points out, they're not compulsory. From a purely practical standpoint you can't really argue that Irish is more useful than any on that list.

metrovelvet wrote: »

I fully agree with you silverfish. Id much rather my son learn German, French, even Latin than Irish. Hes not even Irish.

AFAIR if he's not Irish he doesnt have to learn it.

They should hold a referendum on forced Irish. Its not right.

I'd say like the census, people would chose to keep it out of some sense of cultural duty. God forbid they'd actually speak it mind.

If it were the nations fist language you wouldnt have to go to school to learn it.

Yep and even with that, you would expect that by learning people would speak it and they quite simply dont.

donegalfella wrote: »

More than 3 percent do indeed claim (notably on census forms) to be able to speak "some Irish." But how much weight should we give to the standard "cupla focal"? I can order a beer in German, and I can ask for directions to the train station and the post office—but I would never dream of claiming that I can "speak German."

Very much so. Most new irish speakers aren't fluent. Or at least its not their native language. Kinda like if I moved to France and learned French it wouldnt be my native language. In many ways Irish may become more and more an invented language.

Hundreds of thousands of Irish people do not play GAA sports, attend GAA games, or know much of the Irish language. Does that mean they're not really "Irish"?

For many of your GAA/Gaelgoir types this is what they feel. Not all I grant you, but enough do feel this way.

Wibbs · 01-01-2010 3:41pm

Further to the fluency issue. If you read the link donegalfella posted. The chap trying to get by just using Irish. He learned it from his granny. His granny who learned it "90 years ago as a weapon in the struggle for an Irish republic". She then taught him. Cool, but do not tell me that is some unbroken line back to the "real" language. For all his efforts, in many ways he is speaking like a foreigner in his own country using a somewhat invented language. Like if I lived in France for 30 years. I would be fluent yes, but any French man or woman would spot I wasn't a local. I wouldn't be French.

He mentioned he saw hope in the kids of the Irish schools. Hopefully that will create a new vital language from the old. Cool if it does. Though people forget that such schools were common enough in the past. My mother was schooled in Irish in secondary school. As was an uncle(This was in Dublin too). Neither have any Irish now. They left it behind like many other subjects they never needed in adult life. It seemed to go out of fashion for a while. Maybe today with TG4 and media like that it will take hold more.

metrovelvet · 01-01-2010 3:53pm

Dont the schools get extra money per pupil for Irish? How can so many people study it for 12 years and not speak it?

foxcomm · 01-01-2010 6:17pm

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metrovelvet · 01-01-2010 6:53pm

Many people speak English who are not threatened by this. They speak English as their native language and call themselves american, australian, canadian without feeling the foundations of their identities quake. They each have their own versions of english, just as the irish do.

Permabear · 01-01-2010 7:29pm

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T runner · 02-01-2010 2:56am

Valmont wrote: »

I have been grappling with this issue for a while and have had many interesting discussions about it with work-mates.

Why exactly does the state sponsorship of the Irish language amount to nationalism? If it does, in what context is it a bad thing? I'm confused as the answer is open to different interpretations depending on what definition of nationalism is used.

Is the teaching of Irish history also nationalistic in nature? If we have an obligation to learn about the events and time periods that lead to the establishment of the Irish republic, why not an equal obligation to the Irish language?

Sorry I don't have really have my own opinion to contribute but I am still trying to figure out where I stand on the issue. Thanks.

The historical reason why nationalism has been associated with the Irish language was a result of a deliberate sustained attack on it by the British state over hundreds of years.

Speaking Irish alone put you directly in conflict with the ruling government. If you wished to speak Irish you had to be an Irish nationalist: more to survive against agressive British nationalism than anything else.

The location of Irish speakers in the poorest, most infertile and economically disadvantaged areas of the country are consistant with this. British policy meant that with few excwptions if you spoke Irish then you and your children would be poor.

Supporting these disadvantageous areas with grants serves both to help boost the local economy and to support a language spoken for millennia here which should be of interest to us on many different levels.

I would view the governments attitude as more pragmatic than nationalistic.

donegalfella wrote: »

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The Irish Times still was at that time a very biased pro-British paper.
Their position was anti-Irish/Irish language. An article agreeing with this position is hardly suprising or credible.

By putting the word "Irish" in scare quotes, are you implying that the 97 percent of us who don't speak the language are somehow more authentically or legitimately Irish than the 3 percent who do?

How do you define Irish? Holding an Irish passport?

If you dont define everyone holding an Irish passport as equally Irish then would you say a hurling playing, Irish speaker from the Glens of Antrim is more or less Irish than a Unionist journalist from Dublin who feels he is "British"? Or would they hold exactly the same amount of Irishness?

T runner · 02-01-2010 3:10am

donegalfella wrote: »

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Actually, the national insecurity process is naturally more evidenced in people who believe Irish culture to be inferior and that it demeans them.

This insecurity (inferiority) complex is best evidenced by the illogical use of the word "Irish" to describe something as stupid. People who use the word this way are actually demeaning their own country--even their own children.

Fixing the particular "Irish" situation is not possible as it was caused not by stupidity but by the fact that we are Irish. Thus other cultures and nations are always superior. This insecurity is obviously prevalent in Irish people prone to demaning the culture rather than those being more positive about it.

The Corinthian · 02-01-2010 12:40pm

T runner wrote: »

Actually, the national insecurity process is naturally more evidenced in people who believe Irish culture to be inferior and that it demeans them.

Unfortunately some of it is inferior and demeans us. Bare in mind, much of this supposed 'Irish culture' we have is an invention of the 19th and early 20th century revival, of an idealistic agrarian society that saw "comely maidens dancing at the crossroads". Few people in any country would aspire to such provincialism.

Yet the reality is that culture changes, it evolves, and what it means to be Irish has changed dramatically in even my lifetime. We lived in a priest-ridden society, referred to as "White Africa" by other Europeans, due to our economic backwardness - which in turn was blamed on "800 years of oppression", a line that was drummed into us from an early age - I defy anyone to read an Irish school history book from the period and not admit that the entire thing drips with anti-English propaganda.

But culture changes, and the "800 years of oppression" line simply did not wash as an excuse after 70 years of independence and obvious economic mismanagement, and bit by bit, from the late eighties onward we began to invent a new culture to replace the culture that had been invented a century ago. Fianna Fail even dropped the bit where it wanted to promote everyone returning to the land in their stated aims.

Personally, and I've said this before, I would love for Ireland to be truly bilingual, between Irish and English. Yet in almost a century of independence, we have abjectly failed (all on our own) to achieve this and at this stage we have to ask the hard question of whether this is even possible any-more or if we are simply keeping the language on a life support for the benefit of a minority who's income is dependant on the translation of documents that no one reads and TV shows that few watch.

While I object to the backlash reaction against the language as being emotional and counter-productive, I've frankly seen little positive contribution from the Galegore camp, that seems to simply want to perpetuate a failed strategy and offers no realistic alternative. Rather than do this, there appears to be a need to take a defensive stance, labelling anyone who does not feel nostalgia for Peig Sayers as a Sasanaigh.

Irish culture is changing. There is absolutely nothing that the Galegores can do to stop this. But if they, or anyone else who loves Irish, genuinely wants to keep it alive or see it flourish, then they need to come up with a new solution rather than cling to the old, failed ones. Otherwise, bit by bit, it will die.

Wibbs · 02-01-2010 1:55pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Unfortunately some of it is inferior and demeans us. Bare in mind, much of this supposed 'Irish culture' we have is an invention of the 19th and early 20th century revival, of an idealistic agrarian society that saw "comely maidens dancing at the crossroads". Few people in any country would aspire to such provincialism.

Very much so. It's not often talked about or acknowledged but much of that culture was objectively inferior, insular, parochial and backward. Much wasnt of course and that hopefully will be preserved and improved upon. I also agree that it was largely an invention and a relatively late one at that(or an import). You see it in Irish trad music too. The fiddle, tin whistle, guitar etc were all imports. This isnt a bad thing as it extended and evolved the range of music that could be played, but any notion of its antiquity or inherent "irishness" has to regarded with suspicion. Its a cultural invention. Much like the idea of some unbroken line of the Irish language going back 1000's of years.

sold · 02-01-2010 2:04pm

Many Irish "Nationalists" consider that real Irish people are the catholics born in Ireland. But one of the greatest Irish speakers was Douglas Hyde.

Permabear · 02-01-2010 2:55pm

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Nationalism and the Irish Language

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