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New Eircom line-connection rules - #ripoffireland?

  • 09-12-2009 2:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭


    Bit of a long one, sorry.

    Having only just yesterday moved into a new house, earlier this morning I was trying to get Magnet ADSL hooked up for some non-Eircom broadband happiness.

    Unfortunately, it turned out that Magnet couldn't help me, as Eircom has control of the line in question and wouldn't release it - it was up to me to contact Eircom to reconnect the line, and then tell Magnet that it was good to go again.

    So, I rang Eircom, only to be told that since last Thursday 3rd Dec 2009, any new connection (such as I was trying to get arranged) was subject to a 6 month contract, regardless of the reasons for the connection.
    I was more than a little annoyed at this, as I had no intention of paying Eircom a cent, so argued my case a bit. After a few minutes of me saying how unacceptable the situation was, and how it was an abuse of Eircom's monopoly position over ownership of the lines, I was asked
    How else can we make money? We don't get a cent of the line rental paid to other ISPs
    Now, this was news to me, as I was under the impression that line rental paid to a reseller would be paid to Eircom on my behalf.

    The issue I had with the whole situation was that, in order for me to sign up to *Magnet* broadband, I had to sign up for, and pay for 6 months of Eircom's line rental in advance, and then pay for my Magnet service separately, or they wouldn't bother reconnecting me.

    Again, this only came into force last week, and is already causing Magnet a bit of hassle - one of their customers has already negotiated the 6 months payment down to 60% of that. But I flat out refused to give Eircom any money at all - I'm not their customer, and have no wish to be.

    Has anyone here experienced this? Can anyone tell me if I'm right to be angry with Eircom over this, or am I just over-reacting, and they're well within their rights?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    Eircom do recieve the line rental, and this is almost deffintaely illegal.
    Eircom will be able to get away with it for a few months however until Smart/Magnet/etc get on to Comreg.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    As far as I know Magnet are already challenging it via Comreg, but my understanding of it is that Comreg has already given it the green light.
    I've put in a personal complaint to Comreg about it too, by the way


  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭BurnsCarpenter


    Another thread here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055757346

    Seems Magnet will be able to get around this.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    zoro wrote: »
    Bit of a long one, sorry.

    Having only just yesterday moved into a new house, earlier this morning I was trying to get Magnet ADSL hooked up for some non-Eircom broadband happiness.

    Unfortunately, it turned out that Magnet couldn't help me, as Eircom has control of the line in question and wouldn't release it - it was up to me to contact Eircom to reconnect the line, and then tell Magnet that it was good to go again.

    This has always been the cause, nothing new here
    So, I rang Eircom, only to be told that since last Thursday 3rd Dec 2009, any new connection (such as I was trying to get arranged) was subject to a 6 month contract, regardless of the reasons for the connection.


    Now this is a new thing and Eircom website does indeed confirm it
    6 month contract applies to residential lines

    I'm curious to what Eircom charge a customer if you break this 6 month contract, I know BT Retail in the UK also have a contract when you first subscribe to their service and get a PSTN line installed.

    Afaik BT Retail in the UK charge approx £80 if you break this
    Now, this was news to me, as I was under the impression that line rental paid to a reseller would be paid to Eircom on my behalf.

    Your impression is correct,
    The issue I had with the whole situation was that, in order for me to sign up to *Magnet* broadband, I had to sign up for, and pay for 6 months of Eircom's line rental in advance, and then pay for my Magnet service separately, or they wouldn't bother reconnecting me.

    Again, this only came into force last week, and is already causing Magnet a bit of hassle - one of their customers has already negotiated the 6 months payment down to 60% of that. But I flat out refused to give Eircom any money at all - I'm not their customer, and have no wish to be.

    Has anyone here experienced this? Can anyone tell me if I'm right to be angry with Eircom over this, or am I just over-reacting, and they're well within their rights?

    Your right to be pissed off with eircom, I would hope people on this forum start complaining to comreg about this anti competitive action by eircom


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    Thanks for the detailed response Cabaal, and for the link BurnsCarpenter.
    I can't believe they think they can get away with this sort of activity - there's no way it can end well for them :/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    zoro wrote: »
    Thanks for the detailed response Cabaal, and for the link BurnsCarpenter.
    I can't believe they think they can get away with this sort of activity - there's no way it can end well for them :/

    Lol tbh! Comreg wont do squat. You would probably need to go higher. Maybe theres some EU legislation someone could look up. It is a shambles.
    http://ec.europa.eu/competition/sectors/telecommunications/overview_en.html
    http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/legislation/specific_rules.html#broadband
    http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/liaison_en.html
    That site might be a bit outdated. But this is the route I think people need to take. Theres no point in contacting our communications regulator when they don't regulate anything in the first place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 eircomsucks


    While Comreg may not do anything they are still the first port of call and they need to be exhuasted first before we go any higher, this new move by eircom is extremely concerning as affectively it locks out eircoms competitors for 6 months and after that the customer is likely going to stay with eircom


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    Define "exhausted"! There is legislation in the EU to protect the consumer and Comreg seem to look the other way.This attitude that if enough people write to Comreg maybe one of them will get a positive response is tired and impractical. All the while more people are forced into a contract with eircom. And the price of breaking the contract is irrelevant, even if it was a fiver.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    I'm trying to setup a new account with a non-Eircom DSL provider (Magnet).
    As the line has been disconnected (there is still a connection there - with an auto-"sign up to Eircom now" message looping on it), I need to have it reconnected before Magnet can take ownership of it to provide me with a service.

    I've just been informed that before Eircom will reconnect my phone line, I must first sign up to a 6 month contract with them, or pay 6 months line rental up front, before I can move to another provider. Apparently, this has move been approved by Comreg, and came into force last week (beginning 30th Nov 2009)

    As a consumer, this comes across as blatant abuse of monopoly position, and is the sole reason for me deciding to absolutely not proceed with signing up to Magnet.
    This kind of market-blocking is exactly what has held Ireland back in broadband development, and it offends me that they are allowed to get away with it now!

    I'd appreciate some sort of feedback regarding this issue - I am not, nor do I wish to be, an Eircom customer. I point blank refuse to pay them a cent for the reconnection of a line (again, that already seems to be connected, albeit limited) so I am free to choose a provider. Can you tell me why this move is deemed legal, appropriate, and fair to the market (and consumer) in Ireland?

    Regards,
    Zoro
    Dear Mr. Zoro,

    Thank you for contacting ComReg.

    Eircom do own and maintain the majority of fixed lines in Ireland. As the Universal Service Provider, Eircom must allow other operators access to and use of their lines. These obligations do not prevent Eircom from applying a minimum term to their service when a line is connected / reconnected,.

    From November 30 2009, all telephone lines connected by Eircom will be subject to a minimum contract period of six months. This means that if you get a telephone connection with Eircom on or after that date, and you switch telephone provider before the six months is up, you will be liable for cancellation penalties (also known as early termination fees). In practice this means you will have to continue paying Eircom for line rental until the end of the six month period.

    Under the Universal Service Obligation, Eircom, on receipt of a reasonable request, must provide telephone lines to every premises throughout the State.

    You can request a telephone connection through any telecoms operator, but other operators do not have an obligation to provide you with one. However, there are processes in place which mean that any operator can arrange connection on behalf of their customers, so customers do not necessarily need to connect through eircom directly and they do not need to commit to a 6 month contract with eircom. If you are requesting a connection through another operator check the terms and conditions to see if a minimum contract period applies. You can contact Magnet directly in order to request that they provide you with the service, but as stated they are not obliged to carry this out.

    I hope this clarifies matters for you. Should you have any other queries or require any other assistance from me you can call our Consumer Team on 1890 229668 or 01 8049668. Your ComReg case number is ZoroRocks.

    Yours sincerely,

    Maria Power
    Commission for Communications Regulation

    It would appear that I need to enter text that is *not* just a quote, in order to allow this post to go through, so:

    It looks like Magnet are dropping the ball on this one, as they should (according to Maria Power) be able to arrange the install/re-activation on my behalf, at no extra charge to me.
    *edit* I'll just add that that's a should be able to, not an are obligated to
    I could be misreading it though - I'll give it another pass over and see if I still have the same impression in a few minutes.

    Either way, the fact that Eircom can do this, with ComReg's blessing, sickens me :(


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Providers can indeed accept PSTN line orders from customers however its well known eircom delay these orders,


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    Yeah I'm aware of that. Her response reads as though it's Magnet's fault - that's what I'm getting at :)

    Right, after 2 more re-reads it looks like she completely missed the point. The line in my house was already there, and was active 2 weeks previously.
    There was no new physical installation required (I'm guessing it's just a switch to flick on Eircom's end), which is why I had such a problem with the 6 month line-rental charge.

    I've responded to her to find out what she makes of it now that I've clarified exactly what my problem is for her.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Ask her why eircom do not publish those terms on http://www.eircom.ie/pricing

    http://www.eircom.ie/About/Activities/internet_special_offer.pdf

    Page 4, NO MENTION OF 6 MONTHS MINIMUM OR ANY MINIMUM AT ALL

    Nor is it in the GLUMP?LLU Process document on teh eircom wholesale website

    http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/dynamic/pdf/GLUMP%20CoP%20incl%20TPV%20V1.0.pdf

    Therefore unenforcable from eircoms point of view and from Comregs point of view.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    Thank you for the response Maria,

    I think you may have misunderstood my complaint - the line is already physically in place at my address. My issue is with the reconnection fee (of 6 months) being charged, regardless of my choice of service provider.
    I made it painfully clear while talking to Eircom that I had no intention of signing up with their service, and that I wanted the line connected so I could use a different provider. *this* is what I was being charged 6 months line rental for. Not the new installation of a physical line.

    Can you confirm that this is also approved by ComReg or not?
    Dear Mr. Zoro,

    Thank you for your email. I apologise if my email wasn’t clear. If you contact Eircom to reconnect a line, they are entitled to charge a reconnection fee. However, the reconnection fee would not be the equivalent of 6 months rental. Please see this document for full details on the costs of installation, connection, and reconnection - http://www.eircom.ie/About/Activities/sn1_pt1.pdf

    Now, since 30/11/09, Eircom are also applying a six month term when customers do reconnect their lines with Eircom. The penalty for moving to another provider would be the line rental cost for each remaining month of the contract. This is most likely the six month fee that has been mentioned to you. Eircom are not in breach of any regulations by introducing this minimum term. Therefore, ComReg cannot insist that the charges incurred are waived / credited. However, as outlined already, all other operators have the facility to arrange reconnection of an eircom line for you (although they are not obliged to do this). You would not be tied to the 6 month contract with eircom in this case but you may be committing to a minimum contract period with the other operator. It’s also quite likely that a reconnection fee fee would be applied in this case.

    I hope this clarifies matters. If you do have any other queries or require any other assistance from me you can call our Consumer Team on 1890 229668 or 01 8049668. Your ComReg case number is ZoroRocks.

    Kind regards,
    Maria Power
    Commission for Communications Regulation

    /me sighs
    Totally above board, and she claims Magnet could've taken care of it themselves (despite them saying flatout that these new rules meant that they couldn't)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 mcgooie


    Sounds like an easy way for eircom to make money in the current economy. Again the consumer is sh4t upon from a great height


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    As for eircom delaying PSTN orders from other providers, I can say that I had a phone line order via BT processed in 48 hours, and the LLU broadband connected within the 10 days (albeit it took them another week to send the modem).

    I note with interest that the minimum contract provision is not in the current USO provision notice for this year or in the GLUMP regulations, thanks SB. I wonder what ComReg's position is on that. I further note that such an ostensibly beneficial move for eircom did not happen until now. The incumbent effect has been well noted before, so why is this only coming about recently?? The only other thing that eircom have had to do is to change their meteor minutes/pricing on their bundles...

    There's much more of a story to this than meets the eye. Also, I wonder if there is an official reference version of the USO/pricing/contract information from eircom which has been updated. Maybe the internet is behind on this update.

    But effectively it is up to other mobile companies it seems to sort their own s*it out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    Obaraten wrote: »
    im in the same situation,recently moved into an apartment ,there is no adsl2,cable or midband in the area so my only choice for broadband is through a phone line,i have no intention of ever being with eircon again
    i feel seriously ripped off having to pay them for use of a phone line just because i want to take my business to a competitor,18 euros for 6 months,no wonder why people are leaving them in droves,extortion,pure and simple !!!


    Well I have just done the same thing - but was not aware of this. There is a physical phone line in my apartment, though no NTU as there has not been an active line here before.

    I have just the other day ordered Magnet BB, so I tested the cables in my apartment (as Magnet said they got Eircom to activate the line) and guess what? I cannot get a voltage across any of the pairs coming in :(

    This line BETTER be activated, and there had better be NO CHARGE due to Eircom (I won't be paying it) as I will be paying my line rental directly to Magnet.

    Absolute joke of a company Eircom, absolute joke.


  • Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Well I have just done the same thing - but was not aware of this. There is a physical phone line in my apartment, though no NTU as there has not been an active line here before.

    I have just the other day ordered Magnet BB, so I tested the cables in my apartment (as Magnet said they got Eircom to activate the line) and guess what? I cannot get a voltage across any of the pairs coming in :(

    This line BETTER be activated, and there had better be NO CHARGE due to Eircom (I won't be paying it) as I will be paying my line rental directly to Magnet.

    Absolute joke of a company Eircom, absolute joke.

    Do you want me to check this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    Do you want me to check this?


    Hi Rory, if you could that would be great, I have responded in more detail on my own thread that you replied to.

    Thanks again :)


  • Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Hi Rory, if you could that would be great, I have responded in more detail on my own thread that you replied to.

    Thanks again :)

    Got it and responded.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,979 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Seems to me that Eircom have a minimum service requirement of six months on connection/reconnection.

    If the end user contracts with Eircom to provide the service, then the end user is the one who must pay them.

    If another provider contracts with Eircom, then the end user contracts with the provider .... again for a minimum of six months service from Eircom.

    I don't see any rip-off by Eircom.
    They charge whoever contracts with them a minimum service period.

    But of course I may be missing something blindingly obvious ......


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    Seems to me that Eircom have a minimum service requirement of six months on connection/reconnection.

    If the end user contracts with Eircom to provide the service, then the end user is the one who must pay them.

    If another provider contracts with Eircom, then the end user contracts with the provider .... again for a minimum of six months service from Eircom.

    I don't see any rip-off by Eircom.
    They charge whoever contracts with them a minimum service period.

    But of course I may be missing something blindingly obvious ......

    The problem is some people are contracted by thei ISP, and pay them the line rental, and Eircom are then asking for line rental to ALSO be paid directly to them, effectively making the customer pay line-rental x 2.

    That is the issue.

    It becomes apparent when you go through a secondary ISP, and wish to have your line activated. Eircom should NOT be doing this, as the line rental will be paid to them from Magnet / Vodaphone / BT etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Obaraten wrote: »
    my problem is why should i pay eircon any money,why do they charge line rental,its anti competitive !its a disgrace !

    If you want a service you have to pay for it simple as that. It hardly takes a genius to figure out that maintaining a network costs money. Whether the charges for those services are too high or not is a different question.

    Given that all dsl suppliers incorporate the same line rental charges into their retail prices it is hardly 'anti competitive'. In fact I am sure that the likes of UPC are absolutely delighted with Eircom's line rental charges as it makes their bb products even more competitive.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    The problem is some people are contracted by thei ISP, and pay them the line rental, and Eircom are then asking for line rental to ALSO be paid directly to them, effectively making the customer pay line-rental x 2.

    That is the issue.

    Are you absolutely sure that this is the case?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    dub45 wrote: »
    Are you absolutely sure that this is the case?

    I'm 100% certain this was the case when I first started this thread.
    I was told by Eircom, Magnet and Comreg that it was correct and completely above board.

    Magnet, understandably, weren't particularly happy about it though - they lost me as a customer as a result of it, and I'm now with UPC


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    zoro wrote: »
    I'm 100% certain this was the case when I first started this thread.
    I was told by Eircom, Magnet and Comreg that it was correct and completely above board.

    Magnet, understandably, weren't particularly happy about it though - they lost me as a customer as a result of it, and I'm now with UPC

    Is it not the case that the procedure is that if you want to go say with UTV - you contact UTV and let them initiate the process?

    If you contact Eircom then you are stuck with Eircom for six months.

    Where does the double payment arise?

    Previously people got Eircom to install the line and then immediately went elsewhere for their bb and phone calls. Presumably Eircom considered they were losing out on this and instituted the new arrangement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭zoro


    dub45 wrote: »
    Is it not the case that the procedure is that if you want to go say with UTV - you contact UTV and let them initiate the process?

    If you contact Eircom then you are stuck with Eircom for six months.

    Where does the double payment arise?

    That's what I thought at first, and was the cause of a couple of confused conversations on the phone with both Eircom and Magnet.

    Basically, to have my house's line reconnected (so that Magnet could offer me a service) I had to activate the line with Eircom, and commit to a 6 month contract (for line rental only) - which I could pay up front in full if I wanted out of the contract early.
    Then, and only then, would Magnet be permitted to take over the running of the line and offer me a service on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Obaraten wrote: »
    im not paying for eircoms service,i want nothing to do with them,what this is is holding the customer to ransom more or less

    How exactly are they holding the customer to ransom? No one is forcing anyone to avail of Eircom's services. The alternatives may not be ideal but they are there.


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