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ROI car getting fined for no tax in NI

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  • 01-12-2009 11:52pm
    #1
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭


    Donegal motorists with no motor tax are being nabbed by the authorities in the North.
    Drivers were stopped at PSNI checkpoints last week after traveling across the border and members of Northern Ireland’s Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) checked cars for valid motor tax. Anyone whose tax had expired was clamped on the roadside until a fine of £260 was paid, with £160 of that fine being refunded if the outstanding motor tax had been paid in full within 14 days.
    A total of 17 vehicles were clamped and subsequently released upon payment of the fine.
    One Donegal driver who was fined told the Post that they were unaware that the authorities had any authority to impose fines on cars from the Republic. The driver accepted that they had no tax but questioned the severity of the fine.
    The clampdown happened after checkpoints were established on the Letterkenny to Derry Road on Friday.
    “In the current climate I know that people would be inclined to let things like motor tax be put off for as long as possible, but I would just like to warn people about the severity of the fine, considering if you were stopped by a Garda it would only be €65.”
    A DVA spokesperson confirmed that the Derry operation was part of a continuous campaign against unlicensed vehicles.
    “Once an unlicensed vehicle has been clamped it will not be released until the appropriate charges have been paid; if it remains unreleased, it will be removed to a secure pound at the Agency’s discretion.”
    The monies collected go to the UK Treasury.
    http://www.letterkennypost.com/2009/11/26/youre-nabbed/

    Never knew authorities in another country could fine you for no tax. Might make the trip up to ASDA's a lot dearer for some people;)


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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    200903StihlPricing-1.jpg



    and I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

    There is no way they have the right to fine for tax from another country.


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    #3
    Tipsy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭Tipsy Mac


    It was UK registered vehicles owned by people living in Donegal with no UK motor tax that were fined, not Irish registered vehicles.

    Gardai could not find a UK vehicle 1 cent for motor tax, this story is clearly written by an idiot...
    “In the current climate I know that people would be inclined to let things like motor tax be put off for as long as possible, but I would just like to warn people about the severity of the fine, considering if you were stopped by a Garda it would only be €65.”


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    #4
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Tipsy Mac wrote: »
    It was UK registered vehicles owned by people living in Donegal with no UK motor tax that were fined, not Irish registered vehicles.

    Thats what i though, but i've been assured it was ROI registered cars.


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    #5
    Tipsy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭Tipsy Mac


    Senna wrote: »
    Thats what i though, but i've been assured it was ROI cars.

    No it was people living in Donegal but driving UK vehicles, they wanted to be driving road tax free in both places, fair play to the PSNI for catching them.


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    #6
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    Tipsy Mac wrote: »
    No it was people living in Donegal but driving UK vehicles, they wanted to be driving road tax free in both places, fair play to the PSNI for catching them.
    Why isn't the revenue seizing them on their way home? Lord knows the government could use the cash!


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    #7
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Surely the UK authorities would be well within their rights to impound untaxed ROI reg cars, as the cars are only legal for use in the UK on the assumption that they're entirely legal for use in Ireland in the first place?


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    #8
    jonnygee
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    They clamp R.O.I. registered Cars that they find without tax. I have been checked going through their checkpoints a few times. They clamp any vechicle, regardless of registration and dont listen to any excuses. No tax and you,ve had it. I have seen R.O.I. reg cars clamped and parked up waiting for the tow truck.


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    #9
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Worst piece of journalistic research I've ever seen. Whoever wrote it is very anti-UK. The PSNI is perfectly entitled to seize those vehicles.


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    #10
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Lisbon came into full force across the EU today. It will only be a matter of time before law and order is enforced right across the block which will include harmonising the points system, speeding fines, bans etc between member nations and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up with some kind of a Euro wide "carbon tax" on our vehicles.


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    #11
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Lisbon came into full force across the EU today. It will only be a matter of time before law and order is enforced right across the block which will include harmonising the points system, speeding fines, bans etc between member nations and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up with some kind of a Euro wide "carbon tax" on our vehicles.

    So we should... run to the hills, right? You conspiracy theorists really cracketh me up.


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    #12
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    MYOB wrote: »
    Surely the UK authorities would be well within their rights to impound untaxed ROI reg cars, as the cars are only legal for use in the UK on the assumption that they're entirely legal for use in Ireland in the first place?

    i agree with you, you are only entitled to drive your car in another member state if it is road legal in the your own.


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    #13
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Lisbon came into full force across the EU today. It will only be a matter of time before law and order is enforced right across the block which will include harmonising the points system, speeding fines, bans etc between member nations and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up with some kind of a Euro wide "carbon tax" on our vehicles.

    Another person who doesn't have a clue about the Lisbon Treaty :rolleyes:


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    #14
    Theta
    Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Theta


    Why could they not! As far as im aware you must pay road tax in the state you car is registered in if you are driving in another eu state.

    So im sure the Germans or French could fine you if you have no Irish road tax.

    I could be wrong but I thought I read that somewhere for if you were taking you car with you while working abroad!


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    #15
    RodgerTheDoger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭RodgerTheDoger


    Tipsy Mac wrote: »
    No it was people living in Donegal but driving UK vehicles, they wanted to be driving road tax free in both places, fair play to the PSNI for catching them.

    Wrong. ROI cars with no tax can be seized in any country if they are found to be on the road illeagally.I am from Donegal and have seen this in Derry. ROI reg cars that have been clamped cause the tax disc is out of date.The isssue of people owning UK reg cars and living in the ROI is a differerent scenario altogether. Customs have been known to go to peoples houses in Donegal asking "Who owns the UK reg car in the drive".


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    #16
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    corktina wrote: »
    i agree with you, you are only entitled to drive your car in another member state if it is road legal in the your own.

    proof please, or .

    I'll anticipate your response, and go this:

    Right now, we do NOT have tax harmonisation, across the EU, and so, whether any one State has (in this case) road tax, and another doesn't, does not mean that one state can penalise for non-compliance in the other. Example: no road tax in France. So, why don't we clamp every french-reg vehicle that gets off the ferry in Rosslare ? Because we have no jurisdiction to do so.
    The reverse is also true, for Irish-reg vehicles, abroad. Compliance with the originating states requirements can only be enforced by the originating state - there is no mechanism to allow 'cross-border' enforcment.


    We've already tested a similar mechanism in this country, on the issue of foreign reg cars and foreign insurance, etc. - LK/LT/SK/PL/RU/RO etc etc, and the fact of the matter is, if the vehicle is foreign registered, being driven by(the foreign, licenced) owner, with the supporting (foreign) paperwork, then the Gardai can't touch it. The only requirement under EU law, is for insurance to be valid, EU-wide, and that's why people pulling €100-cost Lavtian insurance out of their pockets can't be touched - it's a 'civil matter'.........as the RTA requirement is met.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #17
    Theta
    Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Theta


    galwaytt wrote: »
    proof please, or .
    IExample: no road tax in France.

    The french still pay a form of road tax. They pay there road tax in the way of heavy tolling on french roads so in a way they are enforcing it on you if you drive your Irish motor over here.

    So it is still correct. You still have to pay road tax to your home state while travelling in your car which the french do in the form of tolls.


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    #18
    testicle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭testicle


    irlmarc wrote: »
    The french still pay a form of road tax. They pay there road tax in the way of heavy tolling on french roads so in a way they are enforcing it on you if you drive your Irish motor over here.

    Vehicles over 3.5 tonnes, and company cars still have to pay their vignettes automobiles as well as tolls.


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    #19
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    irlmarc wrote: »
    The french still pay a form of road tax. They pay there road tax in the way of heavy tolling on french roads so in a way they are enforcing it on you if you drive your Irish motor over here.

    So it is still correct. You still have to pay road tax to your home state while travelling in your car which the french do in the form of tolls.

    That's exactly my point: the French had a system to generate the tax, in that case, tolls. Therefore, you cannot impound/clamp/fine a French car here, just because it doesn't conform to our system, and that is the point I'm making: if the cars pulled in NI are ROI reg, then, frankly, they were impounded illegally, just as sure as it's 1977 and FF abolish road tax.

    Does that mean all cars that travelled to the UK in 1978 were 'clamp-able' for no road tax? Of course not. This is the same case, now.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #20
    medja
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭medja


    This is just a money making scheme by NI authorities. these road blocks for tax have been around now for at least 9 months. Someone I know who travels back and forth between Letterkenny and Derry was stopped when her tax was two days out. She was going to the tax office in Letterkenny that very day.

    If it were a guard in the republic who stopped her, she would have been left on her way, However, In NI, it's fine time.

    If the money was going to the irish exchequer I wouldn't mind but it's not.

    Next time there's a checkpoint in the North, see what they look at first, it always appears to be the Tax. They're not too concerned with the NCT or the insurance.


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    #21
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Whatever about Latvia and the EU there have been long standing regulations in Ireland for vehicles to circulate north and south and these always envisaged that vehicles have the appropriate motor tax, or be fined.

    That said a fine for being two days out is ridiculous. All the more reason to use the efficient internet service to get the disc in good time.


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    #22
    RodgerTheDoger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭RodgerTheDoger


    Sorry the quote button seems to have disappeared to me...

    medja - I do not think you know what you are talking about.
    The reason they look at the tax is simply in the North you do not display your Insurance on the windscreen and a car under so many years does not need to display it's MOT.

    You cannot get a tax disc without insurance or a valid MOT/NCT cert in the north, so if a car has a tax disc chances are they have the other two as well - Thats why they look at the tax... If you have no tax the next qustion they ask is to see your insurance.

    As for two days over due - This is just tuff - If your car is not taxed even for 1 day and you are involved in an accident even if it was not your fault, you are going to be in trouble as you car should not have been on the road. 1 day or 2 months over due, it is still our responsibility to ensure we have our car taxed, NCT'ed and insured. You do not want to pay a fine???? Don't break the law.


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    #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »

    As for two days over due - This is just tuff - If your car is not taxed even for 1 day and you are involved in an accident even if it was not your fault, you are going to be in trouble as you car should not have been on the road. 1 day or 2 months over due, it is still our responsibility to ensure we have our car taxed, NCT'ed and insured. You do not want to pay a fine???? Don't break the law.

    If you never had tax on a car it would have no impact on the outcome of an accident. It is more than questionable if not having an nct will even have an impact as I have never heard of insurance not paying out due to no nct.

    I often risk a stint without tax and I'm perfectly willing to pay the fine here if I get caught. But I refuse to accept that the DVLA have any right whatsoever to touch a car from outside their country and apply a completely outlandish fine. There is no way I would stand for that. I wouldn't give into them, and if they did manage to clamp the car, see the second post in the thread.


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    #24
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Lisbon came into full force across the EU today. It will only be a matter of time before law and order is enforced right across the block which will include harmonising the points system, speeding fines, bans etc between member nations and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up with some kind of a Euro wide "carbon tax" on our vehicles.

    How do you work that one out ... I drive in a Dutch car to Ireland, there is no tax disc or documentation indicating tax has been paid, its tied to the numberplate.

    AFAIK you'd need to harmonise the Car Tax system across all of the EU, plus have a data sharing system which doesn't exist as of yet.


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    #25
    RodgerTheDoger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭RodgerTheDoger


    "If you never had tax on a car it would have no impact on the outcome of an accident."

    Maybe not but your car should never have been invlovled in the accident in the first place, and if you caused the accident or kill someone while driving a car that was not taxed to be on the road, you best go see a good solicitor.

    Your insurance will probably pay out without road tax or NCT, but if you kill someone a criminal court will not care about your insurance, they will ask "Should this guy have been driving this car???" You could end up on manslaughter charges even if it was clearly 1. Not you that cause it 2. Was clearly an accident.

    And lastly - I hit a bus once - nothing serious and my fault, was not paying attention and the bus stopped and I went into the back of it. The bus tax has lapsed, the bus companies insuranced ended up paying for the damage to my car...


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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    "If you never had tax on a car it would have no impact on the outcome of an accident."

    Maybe not but your car should never have been invlovled in the accident in the first place, and if you caused the accident or kill someone while driving a car that was not taxed to be on the road, you best go see a good solicitor.

    Your insurance will probably pay out without road tax or NCT, but if you kill someone a criminal court will not care about your insurance, they will ask "Should this guy have been driving this car???" You could end up on manslaughter charges even if it was clearly 1. Not you that cause it 2. Was clearly an accident.

    And lastly - I hit a bus once - nothing serious and my fault, was not paying attention and the bus stopped and I went into the back of it. The bus tax has lapsed, the bus companies insuranced ended up paying for the damage to my car...

    The only outcome form not having tax will be a small fine, I don't see why you think tax has such an important role in the event of a crash.

    An nct proves nothing about how roadworthy a car is except on the day of the nct. Therefore not having an nct could not alone be the deciding factor in a court case, A car with an nct could just as easily be unroadworthy. In other words if the crash had nothing to do with the condition of the car no criminal charges could be pursued for not having an nct and on the other had the driver of a car with an nct but which is unroadworthy could end up in trouble.

    I doubt very much tax alone was the reason for the bus company's insurance paying out. Tax has absolutely no bearing on insurance. Its the other way around infact, you cannot get tax without first having insurance.


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    #27
    RodgerTheDoger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭RodgerTheDoger


    For the most part It will have no impact - But you are leaving yourself open, if a judge has to make a decision.

    You get your car clamped or seized what you going to do?
    You get to pay a nice fine that you could have used to pay your tax, do you have car insurance? I fail to see why someone would pay insurance then decide not to pay their car tax or NCT their car.


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    #28
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    ".... if you caused the accident or kill someone while driving a car that was not taxed to be on the road, you best go see a good solicitor.....Your insurance will probably pay out without road tax or NCT, but if you kill someone a criminal court will not care about your insurance, they will ask "Should this guy have been driving this car???" You could end up on manslaughter charges even if it was clearly 1. Not you that cause it 2. Was clearly an accident.
    .

    Complete fiction.

    Your insurance company have no recourse other than to the Road Traffic Act with regards to liability, and road tax does not come into it. Period. The courts have already ruled on worse than this - for example, if your licence had expired, and you crashed. Ins co's tried to wriggle on this before, and the ruling was, that where a policy has been offered, duly accepted and the premium paid, and a Certificate of Insurance issued, that the Insurance company must honour cover. The insurance company has no say or input in the policing of the Road Traffic Act -that's what the courts are for. And they rule that you are covered. And yes, do seek out a solicitor. He'll confirm all that for you quite quickly.

    With regard to the NCT, same thing. The insurance companies retain assessors as a car not requiring an NCT at all (under 4 years), can still be un-roadworthy, as can any car with an NCT, but found to be sub-standard (e.g. bald tyres, on the day.) The absence, or not, of NCT has no effect on your cover.

    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    And lastly - I hit a bus once - nothing serious and my fault, was not paying attention and the bus stopped and I went into the back of it. The bus tax has lapsed, the bus companies insuranced ended up paying for the damage to my car...

    Whilst I don't doubt you got paid for your trouble, I do doubt very much whether tax had anything to do with it. In fact, in the case of a bus, I'm sure the cost of defending a claim, and subsequent premium increases, would have been more than the damage you sought, and they merely exercised the least-cost option. Nothing any more sinister than that.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Options
    #29
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Whatever about Latvia and the EU there have been long standing regulations in Ireland for vehicles to circulate north and south and these always envisaged that vehicles have the appropriate motor tax, or be fined.

    That said a fine for being two days out is ridiculous. All the more reason to use the efficient internet service to get the disc in good time.
    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    ....... I do not think you know what you are talking about....
    The reason they look at the tax is simply in the North you do not display your Insurance on the windscreen and a car under so many years does not need to display it's MOT.
    but all cars require tax, so what's MOT got to do with it ?
    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    ....... You cannot get a tax disc without insurance or a valid MOT/NCT cert in the north, so if a car has a tax disc chances are they have the other two as well - Thats why they look at the tax... If you have no tax the next qustion they ask is to see your insurance.
    ...that's all very well. In the North. But ROI cars do not need NCT to get tax - this was done away with, years ago.
    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    ....... As for two days over due - This is just tuff - If your car is not taxed even for 1 day and you are involved in an accident even if it was not your fault, you are going to be in trouble as you car should not have been on the road.
    nonsense, see post above.
    RodgerTheDoger wrote: »
    .......
    1 day or 2 months over due, it is still our responsibility to ensure we have our car taxed, NCT'ed and insured. You do not want to pay a fine???? Don't break the law.
    ...what I would add here, is that the renewal notice for our tax gives you to 30 days from expiry, to renew. So anyone pulled inside that time is perfectly entitled to use their car and tax it to cover that date, within the 30 days.

    Finally, the we are getting O/T, what I would like confirmed is: were the cars pulled/fined/etc on ROI plates in NI? If so, and pending clarification from Ardmacha (above), they shouldn't have been, the cars legal requirements are that of ROI, not NI, and so they had no jurisdiction.

    If, oth, they were NI (or UK)-reg'd cars, from Donegal, travelling in NI, then, fair game.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #30
    seanybiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    Proper order. Good on them I say.


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    #31
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    galwaytt wrote: »
    proof please, or .

    The rules for letting you drive your car in other countries require it to be road-legal in your own. A car with no tax is not road legal. There's your proof.
    galwaytt wrote: »
    Example: no road tax in France. So, why don't we clamp every french-reg vehicle that gets off the ferry in Rosslare ? Because we have no jurisdiction to do so.

    Its road-legal in France.

    Spin up to a Gendarme in an Irish banger with an out of date tax and NCT disc and see if you get away with it (and seeing as we're the most-fined for not having the now legally required hiviz vests, they do certainly check a large % of Irish cars in French ports)
    galwaytt wrote: »
    The reverse is also true, for Irish-reg vehicles, abroad. Compliance with the originating states requirements can only be enforced by the originating state - there is no mechanism to allow 'cross-border' enforcment.

    The reverse is an entirely different situation.


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