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Pace Times in Training

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  • 30-10-2009 9:56pm
    #1
    metricspaces
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭


    Could someone give me some advice on what sort of times I should be running during training in order to get a 3:30 time in a marathon?

    Take for example Hal Higdons Intermediate-II program here http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00intermediate.htm , if I'm reading this correctly, it's telling me to only do one run at marathon pace (on a Saturday).

    But what I don't get about this program is the furthest it's telling you to run at marathon pace is 10miles. So, taking a 3:30 target, you'd only ever run 8min miles once a week in training, and you'd never go even beyond 10 miles. So, how can this prepare you for running 26.2 miles at 8 min miles?

    I would find it quite easy to keep 8min miles up for 10miles, but beyond that I would struggle. So how can this prepare me for keeping 8min miles up for 26.2 miles?

    What are peoples experiences with pace and ensuring you can keep your target pace for 26.2 miles?

    If I look at the McMilliam running calculator it gives me times I should be running shorter distances at - all of which are faster than 8min miles. Is this what I should be following for my runs (leaving aside the long slow run)?

    Also, for the long-slow-runs, Hal Higdon suggests adding 45 to 90 seconds onto your target time. What's peoples experience with this? How much do you add on?


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    #2
    gerard65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,612 ✭✭✭gerard65


    A formula Bob Glover uses is:
    Easy Pace - 10k race pace + 2min
    Base Pace - 10k race pace + 1.5min
    Brisk Pace - 10k race pace + 1min

    Hal's programs are good but for a 3:30 marathon you may need to use his advanced programs as I think you'd need to extra pace work.


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    #3
    metricspaces
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭metricspaces


    Thanks, but I still don't get what I should be timing each of my runs at? And how I could manage to keep a 8min mile pace up for 26.2 miles, when the max I'd have kept this pace up in training would be 10miles?

    What are other peoples experience who have run a 3:30? What kind of minute miles would you have run for your various runs during training?

    Are Hal Higdons programs good for reaching a 3:30?


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    #4
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    HH programs are very popular and they are particularly well suited for novices or those with limited training time or who just want to complete rather than compete for a specific time.

    But I do think that to hit specific times or for more experienced runners HH falls short, not least because his programs are very one paced. I used a variant of this to go sub 3:30 for the 1st time and the RW site has quite a few programs that you could look at. A lot of faster runners swear by the programs in Advanced Marathoning by P&D - I use them and they are exceptional.

    Any of those coupled with McMillans pace calculator and your own experience will sort you out for pace during training.

    As for maintaining 8 min/miles over a marathon you use short(ish) speed sessions to build speed (mainly lactate threshold), mid length PMP runs to build speed endurance and medium to long slow(er) runs to build endurance. After the taper all these elements come together to allow you to run the full distance at race speed.


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    #5
    metricspaces
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭metricspaces


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    HH programs are very popular and they are particularly well suited for novices or those with limited training time or who just want to complete rather than compete for a specific time.

    But I do think that to hit specific times or for more experienced runners HH falls short, not least because his programs are very one paced. I used a variant of this to go sub 3:30 for the 1st time and the RW site has quite a few programs that you could look at. A lot of faster runners swear by the programs in Advanced Marathoning by P&D - I use them and they are exceptional.

    Any of those coupled with McMillans pace calculator and your own experience will sort you out for pace during training.

    As for maintaining 8 min/miles over a marathon you use short(ish) speed sessions to build speed (mainly lactate threshold), mid length PMP runs to build speed endurance and medium to long slow(er) runs to build endurance. After the taper all these elements come together to allow you to run the full distance at race speed.

    Thanks for that. That gives me some more info to read up on. And it's really useful to hear what other people do to meet a certain time.

    I followed HH intermediate-I ealier in the year, and after a certain point I didn't really see any improvements in my running times over longer distances.

    I started to do two things (1) used to McMilliam calculator to give me a time for my shorter runs (2) did a bit of interval training. Both seemed to get me going quicker - but only over shorter distances. I never really saw any real improvements in my long runs. I just used to run out of steam after a certain point, like beyond 13 miles, and certainly beyond 17 miles, and this was with adding a minute on to my ideal time.

    I don't mind experimenting. But 16 weeks is a long time to be waiting to see if it works :). I just want to be a bit more confident that what I am doing will give me the end result that I want. I don't mind putting the work in, once I see the end result. Just for a novice like myself, it's hard to know what works and what doesn't.

    For the long-slow-runs, I can understand the thinking behind adding a certain amount on to your minute mile times. But how much?

    For shorter runs. I was previously sticking to the times that the McMilliam calculator gave me. So for an for a 3:30 marathon time, it would give a 7:08 min mile time for a 5 mile run. But is it a good idea to religiously stick to these times for all the runs apart from LSR?

    "PMP runs"...never heard that term before, what are they?


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    #6
    rigal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭rigal


    I was on the same boat as you when I started training for marathons. Check out my log at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055592775

    I was aiming for sub 3:30 in amsterdam two weeks ago and ran 3:26:47

    PMP = Planned marathon pace.


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    #7
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    metricspaces wrote: »
    If I look at the McMilliam running calculator it gives me times I should be running shorter distances at - all of which are faster than 8min miles.
    McMillan gives you Endurance workouts and stamina workouts. For your target:
    Endurance Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
    Recovery Jogs 9:31 to 10:01 5:55 to 6:14
    Long Runs 8:31 to 9:31 5:18 to 5:55
    Easy Runs 8:31 to 9:01 5:18 to 5:37
    Stamina Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
    Steady-State Runs 7:36 to 7:50 4:44 to 4:52
    Tempo Runs 7:17 to 7:36 4:32 to 4:44
    Tempo Intervals 7:11 to 7:26 4:28 to 4:37

    You do your stamina workouts to build speed and stamina, and the endurance workouts to build... well... Endurance.
    I found Higdon's Saturday PMP run, followed by Sundays LSR was a good mixture. Tough but good. If you want tmove forward, try a Pfitzinger and Douglas Advanced Marathoning program.


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    #8
    jlang
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭jlang


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    You do your stamina workouts to build speed and stamina, and the endurance workouts to build... well... Endurance.
    I'm never really clear on the difference between endurance and stamina. Stamina is running hard for longer and endurance is running for longer?


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    #9
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    jlang wrote: »
    I'm never really clear on the difference between endurance and stamina. Stamina is running hard for longer and endurance is running for longer?
    My interpretation:
    Endurance: Sustainability for long periods of time (running long)
    Stamina: Sustainability at higher level of exertion (running hard)

    It's backed up by McMillan's figures, where the Stamina workouts are geared towards improving your LT and V02max, and endurance runs are geared towards adapting the body to run lean.


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    #10
    metricspaces
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭metricspaces


    rigal wrote: »
    I was on the same boat as you when I started training for marathons. Check out my log at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055592775

    I was aiming for sub 3:30 in amsterdam two weeks ago and ran 3:26:47

    PMP = Planned marathon pace.

    Perfect, I know no two people will be the same, but I guess real figures from real people help a little :). I'll have a read through that!

    But in summary...

    - What minute-mile did you run your LSRs?
    - What was the furthest you ran at your PMP?
    - How did you figure out what minute-mile to run your runs that weren't LSRs?


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    #11
    metricspaces
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭metricspaces


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    McMillan gives you Endurance workouts and stamina workouts. For your target:
    Endurance Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
    Recovery Jogs 9:31 to 10:01 5:55 to 6:14
    Long Runs 8:31 to 9:31 5:18 to 5:55
    Easy Runs 8:31 to 9:01 5:18 to 5:37
    Stamina Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
    Steady-State Runs 7:36 to 7:50 4:44 to 4:52
    Tempo Runs 7:17 to 7:36 4:32 to 4:44
    Tempo Intervals 7:11 to 7:26 4:28 to 4:37You do your stamina workouts to build speed and stamina, and the endurance workouts to build... well... Endurance.
    I found Higdon's Saturday PMP run, followed by Sundays LSR was a good mixture. Tough but good. If you want tmove forward, try a Pfitzinger and Douglas Advanced Marathoning program.

    Thanks. So the furthest you would have run in training at PMP was 10 miles? How did you find suddenly jumping up to running PMP for 26.2 miles?

    It just didn't seem to work for me when I followed this before. I was able to sustain PMP up to a certain point, then had to drop back. So I'm worried about putting all the work in again, following Hal Higdon for runs\miles and McMillian for times...and ending up with the same result, not being able to sustain PMP for 26.2 miles (or most of it!).

    I'm guessing if most people follow something like Hal Higdon and use McMillian for times, then it must work for most? Maybe it's just me :(


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