FG will cut 20 TDs and abolish Senate, says Kenny

Permabear · 17-10-2009 8:30pm #1

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spadder · 17-10-2009 8:31pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1017/politics.html

I was wondering, how many FGer's are in the Seanad?

Nodin · 17-10-2009 8:35pm

I know its fairly irrelevant, but it'd be messy to remove it. Personally I'd like to see it replaced by an upper house that had a pair, like the American or Brit one.

Fair enough on cutting wages....Not sure about the cutting of 20 TDs...that might just be a bit of the oul gerrymander that would suit the two larger parties-I'd want to see detail.

kippy · 17-10-2009 8:38pm

Nodin wrote: »

I know its fairly irrelevant, but it'd be messy to remove it. Personally I'd like to see it replaced by an upper house that had a pair, like the American or Brit one.

Fair enough on cutting wages....Not sure about the cutting of 20 TDs...that might just be a bit of the oul gerrymander that would suit the two larger parties-I'd want to see detail.

Being completely honest about it, its a great idea but cutting the 20 td's aint gonna happen.
Imagine telling the electorate that their losing a TD in their area, the same electorate who havent been the smartest with voting in the past.

Id love to see it happen mind....

dlofnep · 17-10-2009 8:39pm

Nodin wrote: »

Fair enough on cutting wages....Not sure about the cutting of 20 TDs...that might just be a bit of the oul gerrymander that would suit the two larger parties-I'd want to see detail.

Agreed.

All for the cutting of wages however for over-earners. Kenny won't implement this. It's just a vote grabber.

Biggins · 17-10-2009 8:40pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, I would.
If - if there had to be some sort of replacement, instead I'd put in place a more specialised highly trained legal committee team.

spadder · 17-10-2009 8:40pm

- Cutting the salaries of the Taoiseach and ministers to create parity with other countries - no brainer, I say cut it by half to weed out the freeloaders.

Seanad has to go, If they were willing to pontificate on a voluntary basis, then let it stay.

Only 20 TD’s?

murphaph · 17-10-2009 8:47pm

I'd cut the Seanad in heartbeat. To cut 20 TDs you'd probably have to rejig the whole system-well worth doing but I'd like to see him go further and propose a change to PR List and away from PR STV. Would like to see the dail reduced to 100 members to be honest. It's plenty for a small country of 4.5 million souls.

It goes without saying that I'd love to see the salaries of all TDs, especially the Taoiseach and ministers by a good chunk to pull them not just into line with other developed nations, but lower.

dresden8 · 17-10-2009 8:50pm

I get the distinct impression that Kenny makes policy up on the fly fuelled by the need to get a headline.

He is a terrible leader.

eoinbn · 17-10-2009 9:02pm

In it's current form it's pretty worthless. However instead of abolishing it I would increase it's power. We have to get away from the idea of voting for local politicians, for local reasons, and then expect them to run the country! The Dail is what needs to be cut, not the Senate/Seanad.

maynooth_rules · 17-10-2009 9:06pm

I want to see the Seanad gone in a minute. I hate hearing ***** like Dan Boyle, get their wages payed by us, when they have continously rejected by the electorate. The wages and expenses we have to pay for a pointless body is a disgrace. Eoghan Harris for gods sake. If that prick isn't a good enough reason to scrap the Seanad, then i don't know what is.

Nodin · 17-10-2009 9:19pm

Yes, there is the Harris/Callely factor.....

starbelgrade · 17-10-2009 9:29pm

I saw one session on Oireachtas Report recently, where members of the Seanad were debating whether or not the Seanad & it's members were relevant to Irish politics. If that's not a reason for shutting it down, I don't know what is?

Het-Field · 17-10-2009 9:38pm

No loss.

Since 2005 the HOL have had their powers incrementally subsumed by the British Supreme Court under the eponomous act.

Ireland's upper house is a rest home for failures, second raters, and cronies of the man in power.

It has no proper function, and is not worthy of taxpayers money.

brianthebard · 17-10-2009 10:22pm

If larger systematic issues of politics in this country aren't dealt with before these cuts are implemented then they will only be damaging. The loss of the seanad finally completes Dev's dream of making the Taoiseach the most powerful person in Ireland. As Nodin said cutting 20 td's will open things up to gerrymandering, with no real benefit for how business gets done in the Dail. Sounds like a vote grabber atm, but if implemented would almost guarantee that FF become permanent fixtures in government, and might not need a coalition partner again, or at least one so small as to have next to no influence.

0utshined · 17-10-2009 10:23pm

I agree with eoinbn, the Séanad shouldn't be abolished but it does need to be reformed. I think that a second house should exist but it needs more power, it's about checks and balances. As it stands where almost 20% of it's members are appointed by the Taoiseach it's open to abuse and "jobs for the boys".

IIRC the three senators mentioned above were all appointed by then Taoiseach.

Pride Fighter · 17-10-2009 10:30pm

I think that TD numbers should remain the same but with their wages reduced to 70k per annum with vouched expenses only. I believe in a proper bicameral legislature. The current seanad does not ensure this. It was once but DeValera hated its opposition to him and changed the constitution to allow 11 of his pals to help pass any bills. A seanad of 40 people, based on Euro constituency lines with 10 per constituency could be a good idea. Reduce the wages to 40-50k with vouched expenses. Give the seanad the power to block legislation for 2 years like the UK Lords. Perhaps have the seanad elections alongside local and European elections so that way it acts as a mid-term similar to what they have in America. If that was the case now a Labour/FG controlled seanad could block NAMA, which could only be good.

Thats my suggestion.

Badabing · 17-10-2009 10:41pm

I'd have 120-130 TD'S maximum. I think the Seanad could have an important role in the future, have it 80% elected by the people and 20% by appointment.

JonathanAnon · 17-10-2009 11:44pm

I would nearly vote FG on the "Get Rid Of The Seanad" issue alone, if it means getting rid of wasters like Eoghan Harris, Dan Boyle etc etc.. and being a purgatory for ex-TDs who were voted OUT by the electorate.

It would also send out the message to those privileged upper echelons of the public sector that it is no longer acceptable to get an exuberant wage just because you have "served your time" or because you have family in the right places.

G_R · 18-10-2009 12:11am

id echo what other posters have said. In its current form the Seanad is pointless to be quite honest. It should be reformed tho, not abolished.

I think, it should have as much of a say in blocking/amending legislation etc etc as the Dail and there should be no Government Appointees. It should be directly elected, half way through the Dail term, so that if the Public is as unhappy with the government as if is now for example, we would be due a Seanad election around now and the opposition could be in contol of the Upper house and block stupid bills.

Dr. Baltar · 18-10-2009 12:56am

One cannot put a price on democracy. Now, I know that the Seanad is rather pointless in this country given that it is almost always guaranteed a majority, but I still don't think it should be abolished.
Rather, it should be reformed.
The government should not be allowed to propose any senators first of all, and secondly, Seanad elections should be open to all citizens not just NUI graduates.
Also, the two year delay? What a ridiculous power! It should be something along the lines of 'a rejection by the Seanad means a referendum or permanent rejection until it is passed'.

As for the 20TDs cut? Which constituencies are going to be cut? Who is to say that X part of the country should have a lower amount of TDs and therefore a less say in the Dáil.

These proposals are not very thought through in my opninion. I would vote for reform of the Seanad but certainly not an abolition of that house.

dannym08 wrote: »

It should be directly elected, half way through the Dail term, so that if the Public is as unhappy with the government as if is now for example, we would be due a Seanad election around now and the opposition could be in contol of the Upper house and block stupid bills.

Also this!

jimmycrackcorm · 18-10-2009 1:13am

I read people stating they'd rather have reform, but what for? Our laws are put into place in the Dail, what's the point of having the Seanad also?

G_R · 18-10-2009 1:16am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I read people stating they'd rather have reform, but what for? Our laws are put into place in the Dail, what's the point of having the Seanad also?

for checks and balances. Say FF have a majority in the Dail and they try to pass a ridiculous law, well there is no one to stop them. The president cant, he/she can only refer if it is unconstitutional, no matter how ridiculous. If the Seanad had power to block/amend laws then they could stop them.

eVeNtInE · 18-10-2009 1:35am

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SeanW · 18-10-2009 2:58am

Fully agree with the proposal.

Once again, Enda Kenny is bang on the money! :P

Long Onion · 18-10-2009 8:18am

If Atricle 19 of the constitution was called on, Senators could be appointed from certain social groupings, thus ensuring that there is a forum for as many voices as possible, indeed this was how it was constituted prior to 1937, and this is why it was not to pouplar with tha Dail.

The problem with direct elections is that you will still get the make up of the house dominated by the main political parties, if the Seanad is to be overhauled, the approach to appointing senators should be apolitical as much as possible. The extent to which they can influence legislation should be extended.

This would all have to be done by constitutional referendum, and should be done immediately, if the referendum fails, we are all idiots and should emmigrate.

Agent Smith · 18-10-2009 8:42am

Interesting Argument. I Lothe how the senate is used for failed politians (on all sides)

He might have a bit of trouble getting around article 18 & 19.

perhaps a list system might suit, Run it Alongside Dáil election.

As for reducing the number of TD's, if it weeds out people like Jackie Healey Rea, I've no problem with it. Would make for some interesting times in 4 seater Places...

bSlick · 18-10-2009 9:46am

Fair play to kenny. The country is only the size of a medium city, we dont need all these twats in the senate doing sweet FA. We already have huge per capita representation with all the people in the Dail. There are way too many political administrators in this country for its size. The amount of councillors/tds/senators is a joke when you consider the entire country is about the 1/5 of the size of New York.

CJhaughey · 18-10-2009 9:54am

Abolishing the Seanad is a fantastic idea, A holding house for failed politicians that can't find a real job is not what we should pay for.
That twat Senator Mark Daly is a prime example of why it should be abolished.

murphaph · 18-10-2009 11:15am

dannym08 wrote: »

for checks and balances. Say FF have a majority in the Dail and they try to pass a ridiculous law, well there is no one to stop them. The president cant, he/she can only refer if it is unconstitutional, no matter how ridiculous. If the Seanad had power to block/amend laws then they could stop them.

But sure if the people want to elect FF then they have to accept FF policy. (or anyone's).

I would scrap the Seanad forthwith and implement PR List like Germany (and loads of other stable democracies). This removes the local aspect to a great degree and frees up TDs to legislate. The Seanad has singly failed to stop plenty of (what I consider) stupid laws so I'd go this way instead.

ninty9er · 18-10-2009 1:35pm

As it happens I had an indepth discussion on this lastnight, not the FG proposal, but the Seanad and PR list system.

The Seanad is a checks and balances measure and although it's not used, allows for the appointment of tecnocrats to Cabinet. That's not a fault of the Seanad, it's a fault of the government of the day. I'd be all for a 2 per county basis for the Seanad, however part of its setup is that it represents the interests of different sections of society not different areas of the country. What was mentioned in the circle I was in was getting the UL/DCU vote implemented since the legislative foundations have already been laid, however I think that gives an opportunity to make it directly elected.

The likes of Denis O'Brien, Fergal Quinn, Michael O'Leary etc is what we should be presented with, but that would mean giving every citizen a number of Seanad ballot papers...one for the Ag Panel, one for the Comm Panel, one for the Culture and Ed Panel etc...

Personally, I'd be for reforming the Presidency and giving that Office the powers of the Seanad, essentially, cutting out the middle man.

As for the number of TDs, as a member of a political party I'm not too sure the Dáil is overpopulated, overpopulated with deadwood on all sides maybe, but not in general for a legislative lower house. However the "what area of the country would like to lose a TD" as mentioned above just propagates the sh1te of TDs having pot holes fixed or sorting Mary Medical Card. TD are not there to serve their constituents, they are there to REPRESENT them in the legislative process.

Getting on to the second last point: Pay for ministers is going to be cut in the budget anyway, and like everyone else they're significantly down on take home anyway (27% for Junior Ministers) after the 10% pay cut they took last October, and only one of them knows what sort of cut they're looking at in December. Fair enough it's from a high base, but I wouldn't work 70,80,90 hours a week and sacrifice time with my family for the average industrial wage, there's NO incentive. There's room for more cuts, but lets not kid ourselves that it's an easy job.

Last point:
A list system may work in some long established democracies, but what would happen in Ireland is that the party with the most councillors fixing potholes will get the most votes in a constituency, regardless of what the policies are. It wouldn't solve any of the current problems we have.

FG will cut 20 TDs and abolish Senate, says Kenny

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