how many cars can you sell a year privately??

A.D.CIVIC · 21-09-2009 9:21pm #1

just wonderin if anyone knows how many cars you can sell in a year privately?i want to start up selling cars soon but wud like to no wat i need to get to do this.Ive read about dealers license in other countries .is it the same here and expensive to get.thanks

colm_mcm · 21-09-2009 9:23pm

how many you sell depends on how many you stock, how good you are at buyinh and selling, and what types of car they are.

A.D.CIVIC · 21-09-2009 9:28pm

i only selling cheap cars like civics and stuff like that was just wonderin how many i can sell before i can declare it ??

Henry Ford III · 21-09-2009 11:06pm

None technically.

Ask an Accountant about "badges of trade".

JHMEG · 21-09-2009 11:49pm

I think if you sell more than 4 you are technically a dealer, and are treated as such by the Revenue. Of course there are other benefits too, like being able to join SIMI.

Saab Ed · 22-09-2009 12:52am

A.D.CIVIC wrote: »

i only selling cheap cars like civics and stuff like that was just wonderin how many i can sell before i can declare it ??

I dont want to sound too patronizing but you're probably getting into this to have a little fun and try to turn a little money. By the sounds of it you'll manage neither. You need to know your audience , know what stock you need, know what things are worth and know the risks involved are. It takes years for everybody in this trade to know what they are doing and to be honest we're still learning everyday. Any of the ( good ) guys I know in the trade either grew up with it or started at the lower end and worked their way up learning as they went. Nobody just decides to start selling cars. It aint that easy.

Steve · 22-09-2009 1:32am

JHMEG wrote: »

I think if you sell more than 4 you are technically a dealer, and are treated as such by the Revenue. Of course there are other benefits too, like being able to join SIMI.

Really? any source for this (being classed as a dealer after 4)?

JoeySully · 22-09-2009 8:37am

i read some where before that it was 7 cars in a year i think before you need to declare it to the revenue - think it was on revenue.ie

homer90 · 22-09-2009 9:32am

Whats the deal with VRO making note of PPS numbers when clearing cars ?

Someone is keeping tabs !

smash · 22-09-2009 9:59am

JHMEG is correct, it's around 4 cars. And I know for a fact that revenue request info from classified websites regarding private sellers and the amount of cars they list a year.

22-09-2009 10:14am

steve06 wrote: »

And I know for a fact that revenue request info from classified websites regarding private sellers and the amount of cars they list a year.

I doubt very much websites could be handing out personal information to anybody.

I would imagine not putting the cars into your own name would be a very easy way around the only selling 4 cars per year and would also keep the numbers of owners down, the same for clearing cars. Let the buyer vrt the car then the seller will not be on their radar.

JHMEG · 22-09-2009 10:28am

steve06 wrote: »

And I know for a fact that revenue request info from classified websites regarding private sellers and the amount of cars they list a year.

That's scary, and very Big Brother-ish. I presume the data protection laws must be providing some cover, as in the Revenue can only request info which is published with the ads themselves and therefore public?

mickdw · 22-09-2009 10:41am

Chris Steep Theorem wrote: »

I would imagine not putting the cars into your own name would be a very easy way around the only selling 4 cars per year and would also keep the numbers of owners down, the same for clearing cars. Let the buyer vrt the car then the seller will not be on their radar.

How would you get the cars without putting them in your own name?
Private person cannot buy at auction without the auction people registering the car to you. If you were to buy the cars privately, a seller would be foolish to allow you to take the car without a change of ownership being done. Maybe sales within the trade would allow this but with the OP not being a trader, Im sure the dealers would want to register the car to him also.

Steve · 22-09-2009 10:53am

steve06 wrote: »

And I know for a fact that revenue request info from classified websites regarding private sellers and the amount of cars they list a year.

And I know for a fact that they don't.

22-09-2009 11:30am

If the car is your own private vehicle (taxed and insured and in use) I am quite sure if you changed the car every month you would have no probs with revenue.

However if you have a stock of cars (ie more than one and them not taxed and only in your ownership a short time) you will be viewed as a dealer as you are not using the cars as private vehilcles.

I started this year in a diesel Rover 400 that I had for 12 months, I bought a Prelude in March and sold the Rover in April, I then bought a diesel Merc in June as the Prelude was drinking too much, Prelude sold shortly afterwards. I don't like the Merc so it is currently for sale and I bought a 1.6 Rover Coupe in July that is currently off the road till I sell the Merc.

Between now and Christmas I may well change again, I am most certainly not a dealer and would have no issue explaining same to the revenue.

smash · 22-09-2009 11:43am

Steve wrote: »

And I know for a fact that they don't.

And I know they have done in the past, because the company I work for were asked for this information in the past!

Theta · 22-09-2009 11:59am

Revenue do do investigations of that kind. It would be the same as requesting information on a persons bank accounts.

Steve · 22-09-2009 12:33pm

steve06 wrote: »

And I know they have done in the past, because the company I work for were asked for this information in the past!

Well to my knowledge we've never been asked anything like this - we wouldn't even be in a position to supply such information as there is no way for us (or any other advertising site) to be able to prove what money changed hands for the many hundreds of cars that are sold each year.

irlmarc wrote: »

Revenue do do investigations of that kind. It would be the same as requesting information on a persons bank accounts.

Banks are required by law to disclose this to revenue - we're required by law not to unless it's by order of court and even then it would be on a case by case basis, not a general "give me everything" order.

JHMEG · 22-09-2009 12:39pm

Steve wrote: »

Banks are required by law to disclose this to revenue - we're required by law not to unless it's by order of court and even then it would be on a case by case basis, not a general "give me everything" order.

I don't imagine the Revenue would ask for anything they know they are not entitled to. However the would be entitled to ask questions like "How many telephone numbers of private sellers had 4 or more ads associated with them in the last 12 months" and "What were those numbers". This information would have been publicly available anyway to anyone watching the website, but the Revenue are just getting others to do the donkey work (for free).

smash · 22-09-2009 1:27pm

Steve wrote: »

Well to my knowledge we've never been asked anything like this - we wouldn't even be in a position to supply such information as there is no way for us (or any other advertising site) to be able to prove what money changed hands for the many hundreds of cars that are sold each year.

Getting the info from your database is easy to show when someone inserted and ad and then marked it as sold. The revenue can check the reg of the car to see if it actually changed hands!

JHMEG wrote: »

I don't imagine the Revenue would ask for anything they know they are not entitled to. However the would be entitled to ask questions like "How many telephone numbers of private sellers had 4 or more ads associated with them in the last 12 months" and "What were those numbers". This information would have been publicly available anyway to anyone watching the website, but the Revenue are just getting others to do the donkey work (for free).

Exactly, they are entitled to gather info which is or was publicly available!

testicle · 22-09-2009 1:31pm

homer90 wrote: »

Whats the deal with VRO making note of PPS numbers when clearing cars ?

Someone is keeping tabs !

There is a limit to the amount of cars you import in a given period.

Voodoomelon · 22-09-2009 1:38pm

Just to add, if your turnover exceeds €75,000, you are obliged to register for VAT.

Steve · 22-09-2009 1:40pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I don't imagine the Revenue would ask for anything they know they are not entitled to. However the would be entitled to ask questions like "How many telephone numbers of private sellers had 4 or more ads associated with them in the last 12 months" and "What were those numbers". This information would have been publicly available anyway to anyone watching the website, but the Revenue are just getting others to do the donkey work (for free).

I cant speak for the admins but if they approached boards/adverts with such a request they'd be politely told where to go.
If they want to trawl through what's on public display then they're more than welcome to do it themselves.

steve06 wrote: »

Getting the info from your database is easy to show when someone inserted and ad and then marked it as sold. The revenue can check the reg of the car to see if it actually changed hands!

Most people who list cars on the site hide the reg's - details are only (normally) passed on privately once a deal is agreed.
Phone numbers or other contact details aren't permitted in public so it would be a pretty fruitless search.

Henry Ford III · 22-09-2009 1:44pm

Lads look up "badges of trade". Numbers of tranasactions are unimportant. A business can still be trading without making a sale for example.

You can buy and sell your own private car as often as you wish, with no income tax consequence.

However if you have a stock of cars, or intend to change cars with a view to realising profit, that can and most likely will be different.

Tax law is pretty complex btw.

Scouserfan · 22-09-2009 1:45pm

A guy beside me was scrapping cars and selling for parts (no VAT invoices necessary), when some good citizen reported him to the revenue.
During a vsit from the revenue to his large garden which was full of old piles and bangers they put it to him that he was trading in sh car parts, to which he answered; "Naw not at all, just a damndable bad driver lad !".
A classic !!!:pac:

smash · 22-09-2009 1:46pm

Steve wrote: »

Most people who list cars on the site hide the reg's - details are only (normally) passed on privately once a deal is agreed.

No true, go through any used car website in Ireland and see how many people actually hide their reg plates in photos. Very very little! Also, people are asked to give the car reg now when entering cars on most sites so that end users car run cartell checks.

Steve wrote: »

Phone numbers or other contact details aren't permitted in public so it would be a pretty fruitless search.

I'm not sure what you mean by this... Every used car site in the country has phone numbers listed so you can call about the car!

Scouserfan · 22-09-2009 1:48pm

A.D.CIVIC wrote: »

just wonderin if anyone knows how many cars you can sell in a year privately?i want to start up selling cars soon but wud like to no wat i need to get to do this.Ive read about dealers license in other countries .is it the same here and expensive to get.thanks

All you need is one dis-satisfied customer to report you and you will incur the wrath of several authorities, from consumer affairs to revenue.
Revenue only have to see your advert, wherever you place them, to catch you "trading".
Also planning permission issues and rates now also, if trading from a house.

smash · 22-09-2009 1:50pm

Scouserfan wrote: »

Also planning permission issues and rates now also, if trading from a house.

Don't forget liability insurance!

JHMEG · 22-09-2009 1:56pm

Steve wrote: »

I cant speak for the admins but if they approached boards/adverts with such a request they'd be politely told where to go.

Fightin' talk! Such requests can be accompanied by the word 'audit', and 'everyone', which usually does the trick.

Steve wrote:

Phone numbers or other contact details aren't permitted in public so it would be a pretty fruitless search.

I presume you're talking about adverts.ie? The thread that ties ads together is the username in that case, as opposed to phone number on the classified ads sites for cars.

JHMEG · 22-09-2009 1:57pm

steve06 wrote: »

Don't forget liability insurance!

And commercial open-drive car insurance to cover test drives.

Steve · 22-09-2009 2:43pm

steve06 wrote: »

No true, go through any used car website in Ireland and see how many people actually hide their reg plates in photos. Very very little! Also, people are asked to give the car reg now when entering cars on most sites so that end users car run cartell checks.

I'm not sure what you mean by this... Every used car site in the country has phone numbers listed so you can call about the car!

I was referring to our own adverts.ie (sister site to boards).

JHMEG wrote: »

Fightin' talk! Such requests can be accompanied by the word 'audit', and 'everyone', which usually does the trick.

You obviously haven't met DeVore

(remember MCD?)

I presume you're talking about adverts.ie? The thread that ties ads together is the username in that case, as opposed to phone number on the classified ads sites for cars.

Yup, and the fact that your boards account is also your adverts account means that whatever personal information the site has on you will not be given out lightly.

22-09-2009 2:46pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You can buy and sell your own private car as often as you wish, with no income tax consequence.

.

Well said

JHMEG · 22-09-2009 2:56pm

Steve wrote: »

Yup, and the fact that your boards account is also your adverts account means that whatever personal information the site has on you will not be given out lightly.

This is an interesting topic, as from what I can see neither have any personal information: It's all public.

If personal information was being kept boards/adverts would be registered with the Data Protection Comissioner as a registered Data Keeper. I don't know it if is or not, but I'm assuming not? Maybe someone could answer that definitively?

Under the Data Protection Act I can request a copy of any personal data relating to me, and I can also request it be destroyed. To the best of my knowledge boards/adverts don't accept such requests, as again, there is no personal information stored. Again maybe someone could confirm that such requests are valid or not?

JHMEG · 22-09-2009 3:00pm

Steve wrote: »

You obviously haven't met DeVore (remember MCD?)

Celebrity Deathmatch: DeVore vs The Taxman.

I know who I'd put my money on

22-09-2009 3:06pm

I emailed a prominent car website earlier and asked them if they pass info to the revenue. I just received this reply.

Hi Lindsey Bumpy Socket,

We have nothing to do with Revenue at all. Regardless of whether you are placing a private or trade advert.

Regards

smash · 22-09-2009 3:27pm

I'd assume that response is because online advertising websites don't have anything to do with Revenue. However if the revenue were to request public information, they'd probably hand it over.

BnA · 22-09-2009 3:41pm

The number of cars that you can buy in a year, with the intention of selling for a profit, and then sell for a profit, without notifying the Revenue... is 0.

You can of course buy as many private cars for yourself as you wish. And if you sell them a few months later at a profit, then you do not need to notify the revenue if it is your own private car.

However, if for some reason, you come to the attention of the Revenue and they decide to investigate you then you may find it very difficult to explain why you have 7 Ford Mondeos in the back yard or, why you bought and sold 12 cars in the one year.

The reasons you could come to the attention of the revenue commissioners are many...

a) You could be flagged because of the number of cars that went through your hands in the VRO

b) You could be flagged becaue of the number of imported cars you paid VRT on

c) Some inspector might see 2 cars with for sale signs on their window outside your door and just come knocking for a look

and of course...

d) Some baaaalix could report you

The other thing I would say is that there are an awful awful lot of fools out there that think they can make a few quick bucks from importing and selling a few cars. I know, because I was that fool.

Let me tell you this before you even start.

Don't.

It sounds like a no brainer. Import this car. VRT NCT etc it up and sell it for 2k profit. It is not remotely as simple as that. There are a lot of problems with it.

1) The margins are tight. Don't believe the Asking price for cars on websites. That is not what they are selling for. You might make a few quid on some cars, but it will be very tight.

2) It will only take one Lemon to screw you up. You buy a car for 10k. Take it for the NCT. Fails out the door, car is freggin worthless. It will take a long time to try and make that money back.

3) You will always have money tied up. Again, you buy a car for 10k. Maybe it's a grand car, but you are having trouble shifting it. It's sitting there gathering dust and losing money in your driveway. You can't get your 10k back untill you sell it. You can't buy another car untill you get your 10k. What do you do...?

4) Tyre Kickers. They will be the bain of your life. You leave a match at half time to go meet some fella who was mad interested on the phone. Waste your time, maybe getting the car cleaned etc. Yer man is a waste of time. No intention of buying and just killing time on a Sunday afternoon reading the small ads.

I (like half the young fellas in the country) did this a few years ago. I imported 4 cars. Made good money on one of them, broke even on one and lost on two. And wasted an AWFUL lot of time. I would run a mile from doing it now.

how many cars can you sell a year privately??

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