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Legality of rope towing

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  • 07-08-2009 9:01am
    #1
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭


    Hi Everyone

    I was wondering if anyone could definitively advise as to the legality of rope towing (or towing using a rigid bar) of another car?

    I have seen a few threads were the opinions seems to differ. I dont plan on it as i know if the cars not running then power steering, brakes etc are effected and its not generally safe. Plus with roadside assist and AA cover its generally not needed

    But a girl in work had her husbands car break down and a friend towed it a mile to the nearest garage one of the mornnings last week and it got me thinking.

    So legal or not any can anyone point me to the relevant legislation?

    Thanks


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    #2
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    Rope towing is illegal, you need a rigid bar.

    Also both cars need to be insured, NCT'd, taxed and under control of a licenced driver.


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    #3
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    Thanks Ferris, do you happen to have a source for that?


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    #4
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    The reason I ask is because of whats below:
    Statutory instrument S.I. No 537 of 2006
    Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006

    States that a towing (drawing) vehicle is considered in category B where the drawing vehicle is in category B and the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the total design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3,500 kg,


    So if this portion of the regulations covers towing another disabled car then surely the gross vehicle weight of 2 cars would be over 3500kg and therefore outside the terms of a b licence. But does a car towing another car constitute a drawing vehicle? Is there a different provision for towing another disabled cars thats not under the scope of this provision?


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    #5
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    It only mentions towing a trailer, and the combined weight can't be over 3,500kg on a B licence. In other words you can't tow a trailer holding a car on a B licence. I suspect just towing a car is illegal because the maximum weights exceed the above. Also it's just dangerous.


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    #6
    trad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭trad


    Not so sure, seen the AA towing with a rope recently, also seen Gardai on tv towing a broken down van off the M50 on a rope.

    I'd say it's ok to remove a disabled vehicle from a place of danger but not to go to Cork with.


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    #7
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    trad wrote: »
    Not so sure, seen the AA towing with a rope recently, also seen Gardai on tv towing a broken down van off the M50 on a rope.

    I'd say it's ok to remove a disabled vehicle from a place of danger but not to go to Cork with.

    Chances are neither the Gardai nor the AA guy had a B licence.


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    #8
    snowman707
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,279 ✭✭✭snowman707


    tin79 wrote: »
    Thanks Ferris, do you happen to have a source for that?

    I would like to see this source also,


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    #9
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    Confab wrote: »
    Chances are neither the Gardai nor the AA guy had a B licence.

    Cant vouch for the garda now, but I think most of the AA guys have to have C licenses as well, for the weight of the recovery vehicle.


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    #10
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    Ferris wrote: »
    Rope towing is illegal, you need a rigid bar.

    Also both cars need to be insured, NCT'd, taxed and under control of a licenced driver.

    I remember seeing it somewhere, i'll try to dig it up.


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    #11
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    Confab wrote: »
    It only mentions towing a trailer, and the combined weight can't be over 3,500kg on a B licence. In other words you can't tow a trailer holding a car on a B licence. I suspect just towing a car is illegal because the maximum weights exceed the above. Also it's just dangerous.

    I think that the brakes need to be working on the vehicle being towed, so weight limits are not applicable.


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    #12
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Old thread from ES forum http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55157974#post55157974

    Also I've seen plenty towing lines being sold in petrol stations.


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    #13
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    Bits taken out of the rules of the road, there used to be a dedicated section before the RSA took it over and rewrote it.
    Make sure the tow bar or other towing device is strong enough and
    attached securely so that it does not break or become loose when used.

    Do not allow a distance of more than 4.5 metres (about 15 feet) between
    the vehicles or the vehicle and the trailer.

    If more than 1.5 metres separates the vehicles, use some warning device
    such as a white flag of at least 30 square centimetres to draw attention
    to the tow bar.

    If towing a vehicle that has its own steering gear, make sure somebody
    remains in it to take charge of the steering.

    If towing a vehicle the person who steers it must hold a licence to drive
    the same category of vehicle.

    My rationiale is that the towed vehicle will not have servo assistance to the brakes so will not have full breaking power. A rigid bar gives some change of stopping both vehicles. For this reason I have one of these:

    88621_FTB3.jpg

    Its a good job actually.


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    #14
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    "Become loose" can mean "jump off the hitch" to me.
    Do you mean "become slack"?

    Anyway, I've used a tow rope several times for towing to closest garage and never had any issues, besides from the jerky movement it can cause unless you drive really smooth.


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    #15
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    Magnus wrote: »
    "Become loose" can mean "jump off the hitch" to me.
    Do you mean "become slack"?

    Anyway, I've used a tow rope several times for towing to closest garage and never had any issues, besides from the jerky movement it can cause unless you drive really smooth.

    I think it can be interpreted as both to be honest. I do remember it being more clearcut before they updated the ROTR but the link you posted contradicts that. Either way any charge for using a tow rope looks like it would be easily challanged. I just picked up that tow brace as a precaution.


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    #16
    gillo_100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭gillo_100


    Here is online version of Rules
    http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

    The bit about towing is on pg 11 and then 48.

    It doesn't explicity state what the rule is. With regards to weight it states a trailer of no more than 750kg and a gross weight of no more than 3500. For reference a fiesta come in at about 1000 and a mondeo about 1600, so a limit of 3500 is plenty for most circumstances.

    I reckon once you do it in a sensible way the guards aren't going to pull you over, as it does state if towed vehile has steering must be someone in it, so it does allow for it to happen.


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    #17
    Hooch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭Hooch


    If both vehicles are under 3,500kgs tow away. Forget the myth of ropes vs chains etc. Think of the second vehicle as a trailer and the rope or chain as the second coupling.....however if the vehicle is over 750kgs then it needs a second coupling, ie a second rope in case the first breaks. Also you must maintain control of both parts, your car and the car your towing by having someone control it.

    Also check with your insurance as some policys do not cover any form of towing, be it trailer or car.

    As someone posted above if it is done right, with a strong rope and done safely and slowly no Garda will have an issue, and def no issue if the vehicle must be moved from a dangerous position. Now as posted.....try towing from Dublin to Cork....now thats a different matter and should really be done with a transporter.


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    #18
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    nice guy always wrote: »
    Forget the myth of ropes vs chains etc.

    I think its more of a case of rope vs rigid bar but fwiw I think you're correct that if the tow is done correctly then you shouldn't have an issue with the cops.


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    #19
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    Thanks for the replies


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    #20
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,485 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Confab wrote: »
    It only mentions towing a trailer, and the combined weight can't be over 3,500kg on a B licence. In other words you can't tow a trailer holding a car on a B licence. I suspect just towing a car is illegal because the maximum weights exceed the above. Also it's just dangerous.

    Whay would that stop you from towing a trailer with a car on it?
    Cars don't weight all that much, mine comes in at 12XXkg (1250 i think but will check it) according to the NCT cert and original handbook weight is within a couple of kilo. a trailer will be less than 1/4 of that so you easily tow a car on trailer and be underweight.


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    #21
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    its actually the GVW (gross vehicle weight) of what you are towing that matters according to the legislation(ie the maximum weight that the trailer is designed to carry). Not the actual real weight of what you are towing.

    The actual weight of what you are towing would though of course be important as per the manufacturing specifications of your towing car or jeep etc.

    For example if you have a car with a GVW of 2000kg and a trailer with a GVW of say 1000kg then you can tow with a b licence as the combination GVW is under = 3000kg which is under the limit of 3500kg.

    But if you have the same car and a trailer with a GVW of 1900kg than you GVW combination is over 3500kg and you need an EB licence. Even if the trailer is empty and actually weighs only 300kg its the GVW that counts.

    i guess if you are rope towing a car and both cars (towing and towed) are under 3500kg GVW, as nice guy always said, then you are ok as both cars are being operated and steered as seperate b class vehicles.

    If you are towing a car on a trailer it would be the trailer GVW that is the key and to carry a car it would be pretty high so most likely you would need an EB licence


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    #22
    Mr.Diagnostic
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Mr.Diagnostic


    GVW refers to the weight of the vehicle you are driving and would not include the weight being towed. You are thinking of GTW (gross train weight).

    I have an email response from the RSA confirming that a B1 licensed driver in a fully loaded 3500 gvw vehicle can tow a fully loaded trailer up to its rated weight and that of the towing vehicle.


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    #23
    BeardyGit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭BeardyGit


    Ferris wrote: »
    I think its more of a case of rope vs rigid bar but fwiw I think you're correct that if the tow is done correctly then you shouldn't have an issue with the cops.

    Yeah, I'd say he's right too - Especially seeing as Nice Guy Always is himself a serving member of AGS in the Traffic Corps. ;)


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    #24
    Ferris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ferris


    Gil_Dub wrote: »
    Yeah, I'd say he's right too - Especially seeing as Nice Guy Always is himself a serving member of AGS in the Traffic Corps. ;)

    eep! :D


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    #25
    tin79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭tin79


    Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »
    GVW refers to the weight of the vehicle you are driving and would not include the weight being towed. You are thinking of GTW (gross train weight).

    I have an email response from the RSA confirming that a B1 licensed driver in a fully loaded 3500 gvw vehicle can tow a fully loaded trailer up to its rated weight and that of the towing vehicle.

    There is a GVW for a trailer too, its the same as for a car ie the trailer GVW = weight of trailer + weight of maximum load. As far as i understood if the GTW = GVW of towing vehilce + GVW of trailer and for a B licence the GTW (or combination GVW as they call it) could not be above 3500kg, for a b licence. * oh with the extra provision that the GVW of the trailer should be less than the unladen weight og the towing vehicle

    Does what you stated from the RSA not refer to the terms of an EB licence? Thats my undestanding. Are B1 and EB the same maybe?


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    #26
    Saruman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    I had my car towed by my dad once and would never do it again. I am so surprised I managed to get it to his house without crashing in to the back of him. Without proper brakes (car was dead as alternator had gone) I had to keep my foot pressed down on the brakes all the time just so the car had some chance of stopping in time.

    A rigid bar would have been far safer than a rope.

    Towing is no longer an option as I currently have an automatic.


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    #27
    Mr.Diagnostic
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Mr.Diagnostic


    tin79 wrote: »
    There is a GVW for a trailer too, its the same as for a car ie the trailer GVW = weight of trailer + weight of maximum load. As far as i understood if the GTW = GVW of towing vehilce + GVW of trailer and for a B licence the GTW (or combination GVW as they call it) could not be above 3500kg, for a b licence. * oh with the extra provision that the GVW of the trailer should be less than the unladen weight og the towing vehicle

    Does what you stated from the RSA not refer to the terms of an EB licence? Thats my undestanding. Are B1 and EB the same maybe?

    Hi,

    Sorry, EB is what I meant , not B1.

    Here is the question I sent to both RSA and my local motor taxation office –

    Hi,

    I would like to enquire about allowed towing loads from the point of view of what an EB licence covers. Having searched I cannot find the answer to this. If my query does fall within your remit could you please let me know who the relevant authority is.

    My EB licence covers me to drive a Ford Transit with gvdw up to 3500kg. It also covers me to tow a trailer with gvdw up to 3500kg.

    If I have a loaded Transit that weighs 3200kg can I tow a loaded trailer which also weighs 3200kg (Trailer dgvw is 3500kg).

    Many thanks

    The reply from KCC –


    Your EB licence covers to you for Vehicles in Category B (design g.v.w.
    3500kg) with a trailer attached and where the design g.v.w of the
    trailer is greater than 750kg.

    If the design g.v.w. of B is 3500 kg then you would be able to tow a
    trailer up to that weight.

    Regards

    Orla Talbot
    Driving Licence
    045 – 980904

    And the reply from the RSA –

    Hi Alan

    As long as the drawing vehicle ( which cant be over dgvw 3500Kg) is designed to carry the weight of the trailer.


    Regards
    John Paul
    Driver Licensing


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    #28
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,770 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I came across a Transit towing a Caddy van the other day using a rope.. all fun until the Transit driver decided to pull in off the road and left his Caddy driving mate stranded in the middle of the road.. on the N3.. in a 100 km/h stretch.. on a bend! :eek:

    Seriously, how do these people manage to tie their laces in the morning?! :mad:


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