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10 'REAL' reasons to vote yes to Lisbon

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  • 27-07-2009 1:05pm
    #1
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭


    The Official Yes campaigns last referendum were pathetic, they relied on empty catch phrases from empty politicians who had lost public confidence long ago. The entire campaign was almost vacant of any mention of what was actually in the Treaty of Lisbon and why it is good; you know the real reasons for voting Yes! Due to this massive oversight and the utter contempt I have for the main political campaigns I decided to gather together the reasons I voted yes to Lisbon and will do so again next time. Here are my top 10.


    1. Increase of power to the European Parliament
    The European Parliament is the only directly elected body of the EU and as such is the most democratic; the Treaty of Lisbon will increase the power of the European Parliament. The parliament currently votes on only 80% legislation, the Treaty of Lisbon increases this to 95%; this is known as the ordinary legislative procedure.[Many Articles, TFEU] The parliament currently only approves 20% of the budget; this will be increased to 100%.[Article 314, TFEU]

    2. Permanent President of the European Council [Article 15, TEU]
    The current system for President of the European Council rotates between states every six months. The head of government of each state fills the roll; this can cause the President to push his/her countries national agenda often against the will of other states. The Lisbon treaty replaces this system with a more permanent position elected by the European council for a two and a half year term. The new President will be obligated to do what is best for everyone not just one individual state and will act on direction from the European Council. The president has no formal powers beyond co-ordinating the affairs of the European Council.

    3. The Council will meet in the open [Article 16, TEU]
    At present the Council of Ministers meets behind closed doors. This arouses suspicion in the public as they do not get to see how deals are reached. Under the Lisbon treaty the Councils must meet in the open when deliberating on draft legislative acts providing valuable transparency. Hopefully this will have the added benefit of engaging the public conscious, giving greater insight to EU affairs and raising the level of knowledge.

    4. New powers of oversight for national parliaments [Article 12, TEU]
    National parliaments are to be provided with all draft legislation and other documents produced by the Commission at the same time as they are provided to the Council of ministers and the European Parliament. There will be a period of 8 weeks before any decision can be taken by the Council and EP to allow national parliaments to provide input. They must also be provided with the Councils agendas and decisions. This enables the parliamentary opposition a chance confront the government on its activities at the EU.

    5. More clearly defines the competences of the Union & Enshrines the principal of subsidiarity [Article 5, TEU]
    The treaty for the first time clearly defines and sets limits on the competences held by the European Union. Under the principle of conferral only those competencies explicitly conferred by the member states in the treaties can be dealt with at EU level. All other areas are off limits and remain under the sole jurisdiction of the national governments e.g. family law (abortion, divorce), direct tax (corporate tax, income tax).
    The treaty introduces the principle of subsidiarity. This means that legislation which falls under the competence of both the EU and national governments will only be enacted at EU level if individual states can’t do so as efficiently or effectively on their own. The national parliaments will be able to interject if it is felt that any legislative proposal does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity. If 1/3 of national parliaments do so the proposal has to be reviewed (1/4 for proposals in the area of Justice & Policing).

    6. Introduces simplified revision procedure [Article 47, TEU]
    The treaty introduces a new simpler method of amending the treaties in areas of internal EU policy (i.e. concerning the functioning of the EU’s institutions). This method allows for individual amendments to be passed separately without the need to hold an Intergovernmental Conference and draft an entire new international treaty, which is extremely time consuming and expensive. The new procedure still requires the amendments to be ratified by each nation in accordance with their constitutional requirements, which still will require a referendum in this country if it’s not compatible with our constitution. Hopefully this will cut down the complexity of future EU referenda as rather than having to vote on a huge number of changes at once, it will enable us to vote on individual treaty amendments. The simplified revision procedure cannot be used to increase the competences of the EU that will still require a entire new treaty.

    7. Increase the Unions foreign policy ability
    The Treaty creates a new role known as the ‘High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs’ [Article 18, TEU]. It merges many existing positions including the 'High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy' and the 'European Commissioner for External Relations and European Neighbourhood Policy' into one position. This is to provide a more coherent and consistent voice for Europe in the international sphere. Currently there are so many people representing the foreign policy of the EU, foreign governments are confused about who to contact in regards to specific areas and the unions’ voice is disjointed and less coherent. The Lisbon treaty also creates an EU diplomatic corps know as the External Action Service to better facilitate the EU’s foreign policy.[Article 27, TEU]

    8. Creates new Citizens Initiative [Article 11, TEU]
    The Treaty creates a new avenue for citizens from across the EU to have their voice heard. An initiative requires one million signatures (0.2% of the EU’s population) and then the Commission will, if it is within its competence and in keeping with the treaties, draft legislation for consideration by the Council and the Parliament. The Commission can only draft legislation if the initiative is within the competence of the EU and is fully compatible with the treaties, including the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The legislation will then have to be passed by the ordinary legislative procedure in both the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament for it to become a directive.

    9. Charter of Fundamental Rights becomes legally binding [Article 6, TEU]
    For the first time all EU legislation will have to be legally compatible with a charter protecting the fundamental rights of EU citizens. The CFR will apply to all EU directives and national legislation which implements EU directives. It will not apply to legislation instigated by national legislatures i.e. all non-EU Irish Law. The CFR does not expand or create new areas of competencies for the EU. It only binds EU from enacting legislation which is contrary to the fundamental rights laid down.

    10. Energy and the Environment become greater EU competencies [Article 4 & 194, TFEU]
    Ireland has a minuscule amount of power and influence in these areas. The EU can provide better legislation and act more effectively for our benefit than we can on our own. Russia, Europe’s main gas supplier consistently takes advantage of the divided energy market, playing one country against another, cutting off supplies and effectively bullying individual states. Russia will have a much more difficult time if it faces a united EU energy policy, the EU will be the one dictating the terms. The treaty also affirms that combating climate change is a major objective of the Union, which was actually negotiated for by the Irish delegation.


    Maybe the reason that the actual changes the Treaty of Lisbon makes garner so little attention is due to the fact that they are pretty mundane, but then Lisbon is a fairly tame treaty in comparison to previous ones such as Maastricht. So I guess my best advice is don’t listen to the media hype who are only interested in selling newspapers and don’t listen to the political campaigns who are only interested in promoting their own political ambitions, read the white paper on Lisbon and refer to the treaty to arbitrate on any contentious issues.

    All references refer to the consolidated treaties as amended by Lisbon which can be found here.
    *TEU = Treaty on European Union
    *TFEU = Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union

    For further reading and more detailed information I recommend the 'White paper on Lisbon' prepared by the Department of Foreign Affairs which can be found here.

    Regards,
    Sink


«134567

Comments

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    #2
    Martin 2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Martin 2


    Good work Sink, somebody should put these points on postcards and send one to every household in the country:), or at the very least forward the link to the official campaigns


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    #3
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Good post, Sink. I'm gonna link to this in my sig, if you don't mind.


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    #4
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    I'm gonna link to this in my sig, if you don't mind.

    Be my guest.


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    #5
    upthedub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭upthedub


    Should also put the 10 reasons why we should NOT vote for lisbon beside this.


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    #6
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    sink wrote: »
    Be my guest.

    I shall indeed.
    upthedub wrote: »
    Should also put the 10 reasons why we should NOT vote for lisbon beside this.

    I've yet to see 10 reasons that are true tbh


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    #7
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    upthedub wrote: »
    Should also put the 10 reasons why we should NOT vote for lisbon beside this.

    You're free to start your own thread; don't forget to give the Treaty articles you're referring to.

    Very good post, sink.


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    #8
    onq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭onq


    I accept all the positive points you made.

    The below points are the original negative ones I had.
    They seem to entrench a Bureaucracy into a protected position from where it cannot be controlled by the electorate.
    We already have uncontrollable Banks and we see where that got us.
    • enabling Lisbon automatically brings in another document taht wasn't not available in the run up to the vote.
    • voting Yes to Lisbon means no more significant changes need to be referred to the electorates of the countries they will affect.
    • NOT ONE of our overpaid public servants was asked to review the ENTIRE text and keynote it for the Taoiseach.
    • NONE of our 164 elected representatives read it.
    • the document was deliberately made so complex as to be unreadable.
    I see no substantive changes made to the core difficulties I had the first time.
    I hate seeing people manipulated by Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.
    I have seen no chages to the real concerns above.
    I have seen no explanatory notes on it this time.

    Again.

    Lisbon is designed to muzzle the rich tapestry of Europe and force us to speak with one voice.
    That way the Irish won't embarrass the powers that be like we used to, standing up for the little guy.

    But thankfully, Big Government is now well behind the curve.
    The technology is out there now, and Blogs and Bulletin Boards are more widely read than Newspapers.
    Controlling the coinage and the courts and the money was never enough - controlling the media has always been the real prize.
    Its why every would-be dictator either takes out or takes over the radio and TV stations first, before even consolidating power.
    We are all conditioned to it, Pavlov's Poodes all of us- it confers legitimacy and penetration of hearts and minds in one go.

    Read Lisbon and tell me you'll sleep easier in your bed after its passed.

    ONQ.

    "Control the Coinage and the Courts - let the rabble have the rest."
    -- The Padishah Emperor, Dune, by Frank Herbert

    "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws"
    -- Lord Nathan Mayer Rothschild

    Truth IS stranger than fiction.


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    #9
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    upthedub wrote: »
    Should also put the 10 reasons why we should NOT vote for lisbon beside this.

    There is only one genuine reason to vote no; to vote against a political union of European states. If you're for a political union, any issues you would have with the Treaty of Lisbon (and I have my own) are outweighed by the benefits Lisbon has to offer.


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    #10
    upthedub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭upthedub


    sink wrote: »
    There is only one genuine reason to vote no; to vote against a political union of European states. If you're for a political union, any issues you would have with the Treaty of Lisbon (and I have my own) are outweighed by the benefits Lisbon has to offer.
    Have you read the whole lisbon document??


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    #11
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    onq wrote: »
    So the bit where enabling Lisbon automatically brings in another document doesn't cause you concern?

    I'm not sure to what you are referring, perhaps you could provide a reference?
    onq wrote: »
    Or the bit where voting Yes to Lisbon means no more significant changes need to be referred to the electorates of the countries they will affect?

    Any future changes which presently require a referendum will still require a referendum after Lisbon is ratified.


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    #12
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    onq wrote: »
    So the bit where enabling Lisbon automatically brings in another document doesn't cause you concern?

    Or the bit where voting Yes to Lisbon means no more significant changes need to be referred to the electorates of the countries they will affect?

    I'm not aware of those bits, were you given article numbers to corroborate these claims? I fear you may have been misled...


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    #13
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    upthedub wrote: »
    Have you read the whole lisbon document??

    Not cover to cover, I have read the consolidates TEU and TFEU in their entirety and I have referenced the protocols and annexes if there were any contentious issues.


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    #14
    upthedub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭upthedub


    sink wrote: »
    Not cover to cover, I have read the consolidates TEU and TFEU in their entirety and I have referenced the protocols and annexes if there were any contentious issues.
    I think you are better off reading ALL before you make your mind up !


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    #15
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    upthedub wrote: »
    I think you are better off reading ALL before you make your mind up !

    Why, what would be the point? and have you? It's perfectly reasonable to read only the parts that are causing difficulty.


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    #16
    Danco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 153 ✭✭Danco


    That's 11 points. There's only one 6 between 1 and 10.


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    #17
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Danco wrote: »
    That's 11 points. There's only one 6 between 1 and 10.

    Not if the Lisbon Treaty is passed.


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    #18
    onq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭onq


    sink wrote: »
    <snip>
    All references refer to the consolidated treaties as amended by Lisbon which can be found here.
    *TEU = Treaty on European Union
    *TFEU = Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union

    Oh yes. The Irish Translation. Brilliant.

    ONQ


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    #19
    upthedub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭upthedub


    sink wrote: »
    Why, what would be the point? and have you? It's perfectly reasonable to read only the parts that are causing difficulty.
    How can you make up your mind if you have not read it all??


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    #20
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Danco wrote: »
    That's 11 points. There's only one 6 between 1 and 10.

    Whoops. I split point 5 and forgot to renumber the rest. I've relabled 5 & 6, 5a & 5b.


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    #21
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    onq wrote: »
    Oh yes. The Irish Translation. Brilliant.

    ONQ

    Whoops again. Fixed, now it point to the English version.


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    #22
    onq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭onq


    sink wrote: »
    I'm not sure to what you are referring, perhaps you could provide a reference?

    Any future changes which presently require a referendum will still require a referendum after Lisbon is ratified.

    I could if I searched for it.
    It was brought to my attention by a column by Vincent Brown in the back of the SBP.
    It was widely reported just before the vote.
    Surely someone as clued in as you is aware of this?

    After seeing the Danes and France muzzled, the rest of Europe disenfranchised on the matter of "referendums" you have balls to bring that in.
    And no, my reading of it suggested that was not the case.
    We wouldn't be able to hold future referendums

    ONQ


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    #23
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    onq wrote: »
    I could if I searched for it.
    It was brought to my attention by a column by Vincent Brown in the back of the SBP.
    It was widely reported just before the vote.
    Surely someone as clued in as you is aware of this?

    You are going to have to provide sources if you want a debate, because I still haven't a clue what you're talking about.
    onq wrote: »
    After seeing the Danes and France muzzled, the rest of Europe disenfranchised on the matter of "referendums" you have balls to bring that in.
    And no, my reading of it suggested that was not the case.
    We wouldn't be able to hold future referendums

    ONQ

    Can you be more specific, where in the treaty does it prevent Ireland from holding future referenda? If you're not going to provide references your points hold no weight.


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    #24
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    upthedub wrote: »
    How can you make up your mind if you have not read it all??

    You don't need to read it all. It's perfectly reasonable to isolate the issues you have concerns with, and concentrate on those. And there are enough contentious statements made about the Treaty that you won't miss anything of importance, in case you think that by not reading all of it you're missing something in the small print.


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    #25
    onq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭onq


    sink wrote: »
    Whoops again. Fixed, now it point to the English version.

    <chuckle>

    This may not be entirely fair to you personally, but your performance here this afternoon is precisely why I mistrust unaccountable Bureaucracy.
    You seem like a Good Guy, but your typos and mis-references are examples of the kind of errors that I suspect litter Lisbon.
    We don't know this of course - BECAUSE NO ONE HAS READ IT YET!!!
    Not even the Attorney General it appears
    Why are we paying him again...?

    LOL!

    Its hard enough to get Directors to do their job even with the Companies Act.
    It seems to be all you can do these days to find reputable solicitors who won't rip you off anjd steal your money.
    Placing more, unaccountable power in the hands of Servants of Cute Hoor politicians is the last thing we should be doing, IMO.

    If you want to grant someone more power, do it under conditions that make them more relucant to accept it.
    Make them all personally liable unto their estates - like architects - and we'll soon see who rushes to accept positions.

    ONQ


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    #26
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    onq wrote: »
    <chuckle>

    This may not be entirely fair to you personally, but your performance here this afternoon is precisely why I mistrust unaccountable Bureaucracy.
    You seem like a Good Guy, but your typos and mis-references are examples of the kind of errors that litter Lisbon.
    We don't know thsi of course - BECAUSE NO ONE HAS READ IT YET!!!

    LOL!

    I'm sorry you feel that way, but you're being pretty ridiculous imo. I copied the wrong link and wrongly numbered one point and you believe that refutes my entire post. I'm still waiting for references to the points you raised btw!


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    #27
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Excellent post sink. Would you mind if I quoted it on p.ie?
    onq wrote: »
    enabling Lisbon automatically brings in another document taht wasn't not available in the run up to the vote.

    Not sure what that means? Could you clarify please?
    onq wrote: »
    voting Yes to Lisbon means no more significant changes need to be referred to the electorates of the countries they will affect.

    Article 48 Section 4 states quite clearly:
    Lisbon Treaty wrote:
    A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.

    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    See page 31 in the following: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:306:0010:0041:EN:PDF
    onq wrote: »
    NOT ONE of our overpaid public servants was asked to review the ENTIRE text and keynote it for the Taoiseach.

    That doesn't mean the Treaty was either good or bad so is irrelevant.
    onq wrote: »
    NONE of our 164 elected representatives read it.

    As previous.
    onq wrote: »
    the document was deliberately made so complex as to be unreadable.

    The document is so complex and unreadable because it is an international treaty covering the running of a union of 27 member states that also updates a number of other Treaties. There's no way something like that will ever be readable.
    onq wrote: »
    I hate seeing people manipulated by Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

    I saw nothing that could be seen to create that in sinks original post.
    onq wrote: »
    I have seen no explanatory notes on it this time.

    The explanatory notes are the same as before. The consolidated versions sink has linked to and things like the Referendum Commissions site etc (see www.lisbontreaty2008.ie for a good overview of the Treaty).


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    #28
    onq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭onq


    sink wrote: »
    You are going to have to provide sources if you want a debate, because I still haven't a clue what you're talking about.

    Can you be more specific, where in the treaty does it prevent Ireland from holding future referenda? If you're not going to provide references your points hold no weight.

    Now you're quoting debating rules at me?
    The Good Guy who can't itemise points?
    I'll dig it out and revert later tonight.

    IN the meantime, catch - read this utter nonsense from the first page of the link you re-posted.

    =============================================

    "NOTE TO THE READER

    "This publication contains the consolidated versions of the Treaty on European Union and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, together with the annexes and protocols thereto, as they will result from the amendments introduced by the Treaty of Lisbon, signed on 13 December 2007 in Lisbon. It also contains the declarations annexed to the Final Act of the Intergovernmental Conference which adopted the Treaty of Lisbon.

    "The Treaty of Lisbon is still in the process of being ratified by the Member States, in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. As provided for in Article 6 thereof, the Treaty will enter into force on 1 January 2009, provided that all the instruments of ratification have been deposited, or, failing that, on the first day of the month following the deposit of the last instrument of ratification.

    "This publication is provisional in nature. Until the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, a number of rectifications may be made to one or other language version of the text, in order to correct possible errors which may come to light in the Treaty of Lisbon or in the prior Treaties.

    "This text has been produced for documentary purposes and does not involve the responsibility of the institutions of the European Union."

    That last line is the killer - you'll never see any diaper wearing Bureaucrats taking responsibility for anything!

    ONQ


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    #29
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    as i mentioned in another thread

    point #10 (energy policy) on its own is huge reason to vote for it as it has so many economic consequences


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    #30
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    onq wrote: »
    Now you're quoting debating rules at me?
    The Good Guy who can't itemise points?
    Why all the sly little digs? Are they just to disguise the fact that your arguments have NO substance whatsoever? By the way, you do know that there is a Conspiracy Theory Forum on boards, right? It would suit your frame of mind a lot better.


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    #31
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    upthedub wrote: »
    I think you are better off reading ALL before you make your mind up !

    What's in Lisbon that isn't in the Consolidated Treaties?


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