Women and Photography

AnCatDubh · 29-06-2009 1:55pm #1

I've just been reading a piece over on burn magazine where David Alan Harvey ponders that the Magnum agency has a disproportionate ratio of men to women in their photographer 'stock'. He also comments that anecdotally from his experience of the workshops which he runs that it is usually the women which come to the top of the pile with the 'edge' and non linear progression. However that being said, this rarely translates into the later careers of the women, a point he can't figure out why.

Quite obviously on this forum we have incredibly talented female photographers (as indeed we do have the same of the male gender) and although this forum stops in terms of discerning or judging who is 'better' (and I don't want any ensuing discussion to follow that mantle), I am wondering how people feel - in particular women photgraphers, about the disparity.

If people don't mind, i've added a straw poll to gage the photographer population here on boards as a % breakdown among the sexes. This is optional - no one is forced to vote.

So, if you are ok with it, please vote in the poll and comment as appropriate - again - sticking away from the "women are better than men" or "men or better than women", type of BS.

Serious postings only - we're not afterhours

EDIT: The poll is anonymous - thanks.

smash · 29-06-2009 2:02pm

With male vs female photographer I'd be interested to know about favourite subject manner to see there's any particular trends that follow each sex. Like I shoot a lot of cars and motorsport, as do a lot of other men but I only know 1 girl that likes to shoot cars.

Anouilh · 29-06-2009 2:05pm

A good question...

About twenty years ago I attended a photography course in UCD. There were ten classes and each week a different photographer took the group. There were nine men and one woman, which instantly confirmed a gender imbalance in the profession at the time.

I have worked as a freelance writer and think that photography is quite difficult for women who wish to have a family life. Trips to war zones and spending all night waiting for politicians to appear is for the very dedicated few, even today, I think.

Graphic design, on the other hand, has many women practitioners.

steve06 wrote: »

With male vs female photographer I'd be interested to know about favourite subject manner to see there's any particular trends that follow each sex. Like I shoot a lot of cars and motorsport, as do a lot of other men but I only know 1 girl that likes to shoot cars.

I mostly photograph flowers and gardens, but that is because I'm a gardener, not because of gender bias.

Also I love shooting motorbikes, though I rarely upload the photos here.

How I approach the subject may show a gender influence, perhaps?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/anouilh/3662419799/

I still take out photos of my beloved blue Ford Escort Estate, my first car, and work on them.

sineadw · 29-06-2009 2:08pm

I think the disparity can at least partially be summed up in the ability to push and 'sell' oneself. I think men are innately better at doing that (?) and you have to be pushy in the more traditional photog jobs.I don't and never will take photos for a living, but I know from 'real' work that I undersell myself a lot. I think women have a bit more of a tendency to do that? Maybe I'm wrong there? I often feel a bit of testosterone would do me all the good in the world

Its also a classic case of perception. I have recently set up a business with a guy from Ukraine. His English is good but he trips sometimes. So I do all the official client liaison stuff. I've found time and time again though that clients, male ones in particular, respond better to the male half when it comes to business. Even though I'm more qualified, and can articulate myself better (in English at least

).

Maybe its a bit of both? Or maybe it's just me

Fajitas! · 29-06-2009 2:11pm

It's funny though, because if you look at any 'creative' courses, whether they be Ba's or Ma's, or CEAD's, you'll find a female majority. I think NCAD is or was 5:1 female to male. A one year FETAC course I did in Waterford had 25ish in my class, and I was the only male. The other class had 25 and 3 males.

Ricky91t · 29-06-2009 2:29pm

When i was at the bike races this weekend,I saw probably about 20 different photographers(official ones) Three of these were Women,The rest men..

Calina · 29-06-2009 2:32pm

There are quite a few decent female kite photographers around the world. I don't know if this is also reflected in general surf photography. I think not.

CabanSail · 29-06-2009 2:39pm

I have noticed that this forum does seem to have male gender bias which is noy reflected in the membership at DCC, which is about 60/40 male to female. When we have the Beginners Photography course it seems there are more women than men in the classes.

KarmaGarda · 29-06-2009 3:14pm

Just made me think, I was at the Tamil protest in London a while back and out of about 12 - 15 photographers following the whole protest 2 were female.

smelltheglove · 29-06-2009 3:30pm

Well my main income is wedding photography and family photography is second. I like music but this is a hobbie and do the odd bit of boxing photography for the local club. I have very little interest in fashion photography, my aim has always been for weddings, this is what I love doing and I'm not too bad at it either. Most of my clients comment on the fact that they are more than happy to have a female photogapher and I often become quite friendly with them also.

My main priority is not to sell myself or the job but to make sure that the bride is happy with everything she has, wants, is looking for and I have been told that this makes me more appealing than others as there is a more personal side to my work.

I know of 2 other women trying to get into wedding photography but I have not actually met another female wedding photographer that works as often as I do and I am only at it a year, having said that, I dont know too many wedding photographers either but even in my search for my own wedding I did not come across any experienced women.

The family side of things can be very true, in any career women tend to take a step back once they have children, not because of work but their children are often their main priority. I feel had I started wedding photography before children i may have come against hardships in rebuilding a reputation after a long break away but thankfully I did the child bit first. Infact I think this has helped me get as far as I have so far, I know how to deal with young children, I have been recently married and know exactly what a bride wants so I often put myself on the other side of the camera and think of how I would have wanted it done and then do it that way.

Anouilh · 29-06-2009 5:37pm

CabanSail wrote: »

I have noticed that this forum does seem to have male gender bias which is noy reflected in the membership at DCC, which is about 60/40 male to female. When we have the Beginners Photography course it seems there are more women than men in the classes.

Have you been able to work out why this is so?

Many more boys seem to study photography in school, though this may be changing.

Has the gender difference anything to do with the technical nature of photography. Some French intellectual had a strange way of seeing a camera as a masculine piece of equipment, or so I learned at a French cinema class many years ago. Just goes to show the daft ideas Freud is responsible for...

Perhaps inviting members from other groups in Boards.ie would help? There are probably many posters with very good photos who just have not thought about uploading them here.

CabanSail · 29-06-2009 6:34pm

Anouilh wrote: »

Have you been able to work out why this is so?

I have my own theory, which is that fora like this can get very technical which can appeal to the boys a lot more.

At DCC the emphasis is more on the image itself & the technicalities are an aside to that. I think that approach appeals to the girls a lot more.

That's what I think anyway. I have been known to be wrong.

dudara · 29-06-2009 8:49pm

I'd hazard a guess to say that internet fora like this are more populated by males so there could be a certain bias towards males here.

I've only done one photography course and I'd say that it was female dominated that day.

nk12 · 29-06-2009 9:21pm

its definately more male dominated in every aspect that I have come across! I did the wedding course with institute of photography and i was 1 of 2 females out of ten!

Anouilh · 30-06-2009 11:16am

There are a lot of sites, particularly in America, that are trying to reassert women's presence in the history of photography.

When you think about it, women record the ordinary events of domestic and family life, as any album taken out to entertain guests will prove.

The question of professional photography and women is worth looking at more closely, however. I take an almost Marxian view, linking to the means of production. Women don't tend to spend the same amount of money on gear as men do, so their work, in general, does not often hit the lime-light. Also, the truly famous women photographers are often very individualistic and attract the sort of attention that I (and perhaps many other women?) would find intrusive.

I like Henry Fox Talbot a lot, and his wife, Constance, although less famous, was a great influence in the history of photography:

http://bygonederbyshire.co.uk/articles/Talbot,_Constance:_Woman_at_forefront_of_photography

I am interested in the fact that women are perceived to have less interest in photography because it is technical. That is what appeals to me and I would like to learn more about the science of light.

CabanSail · 30-06-2009 11:25am

Another issue is that until many posters here state their gender, it is often unknown. Some usernames do suggest one gender or another but most are quite neutral. In the early days of being on the net I had a problem where I picked a nick which was a combination of my village name & surname. I did not think it was a gender suggestive name, but many people thought it was a female name. I had a lot of lesbian friends at the time & so was often accused of being one myself! :rolleyes:

trishw78 · 30-06-2009 12:00pm

@cabansail Ah that story never gets old.. you big lesbo

While I've been mulling over this thread the last few days. I think as some one else may have mentioned, women get to a point where other priorities take over whether it be family, or selling themselves short. As much as feminist movement in the 60's & 70's changed alot for us ladies it's still a male dominated society & world.

It's hard for women to be single minded & focused on a goal without letting other distractions getting in the way.

I see my photography as a hobby I've sold the grand total of 2 prints which I'm completely happy with, it has given me a "want to sell more" urge (If that's the right word). But if I didn't sell anything else I'd be just as happy. It'd probably take me longer to save for that new lens, as I have new responsibilities (mortgage, keeping me job etc). So I won't be living the dream unless I win BIG in the lotto and then, I'm still willing to accept that I may not sell a single shot.

Anouilh · 30-06-2009 12:20pm

trishw78 wrote: »

I'm still willing to accept that I may not sell a single shot.

The Van Gogh of the photography world?

The workplace seems to be less male dominated than when I started working in the early 1970's. I have been encouraged by both men and women of my own generation equally over the years and it would be difficult to describe a society that treated women like children, as the one I grew up in did. Opportunities are much more open now and if you try something new it is not seen as going against nature.

Really, all anyone needs to be a photographer is a camera...

trishw78 · 30-06-2009 12:26pm

Anouilh wrote: »

The Van Gogh of the photography world?

Lets not go overbord I'm not willing to cut my ear off just yet.

Earthhorse · 30-06-2009 1:13pm

sineadw wrote: »

I think the disparity can at least partially be summed up in the ability to push and 'sell' oneself. I think men are innately better at doing that (?) and you have to be pushy in the more traditional photog jobs.I don't and never will take photos for a living, but I know from 'real' work that I undersell myself a lot. I think women have a bit more of a tendency to do that? Maybe I'm wrong there? I often feel a bit of testosterone would do me all the good in the world

I think you're dead right. I'm not a photographer but in my final year in college I took Gender Relations in Employment as one of my electives. A central point of an essay I wrote for the course was that women have a tendency to underestimate themselves or, at least, not rate themselves as highly as men of equivalent ability and position. Though I was using this as a means to explain wage differentials and higher representation of women in low income work, I think it can be extended into almost any area where we see a difference between men and women.

If you don't have as much belief as the next guy (or gal) then that can make a difference in terms of how far your career goes; this is especially true during the start of someone's career where they have a smaller portfolio and less clients to recommend them.

CabanSail · 30-06-2009 2:19pm

trishw78 wrote: »

@cabansail Ah that story never gets old.. you big lesbo

You should see me in a Boiler Suit!!! Quite scary indeed.

I tend to go through the world naively seeing people as people, regardless of the differing groups that they belong to. Reading this thread has made me realise that some of the female photographers I have met recently do have a lot less confidence in their work, which is often very good. I think we all have a tendency to see our own images as of less worth than those others take.

Scarlett68 · 30-06-2009 3:14pm

Hi All,

Probably slighty off topic in that the gender issue is one thing but has anyone else noticed that a lot of us tend to be involved in IT...are we all trying to readdress the left brain/right brain imbalance?? Anyway, its just an observation, it maybe all in my own cerebral cortex:eek:

Anouilh · 30-06-2009 6:28pm

There is an interesting element in the lives of several women photographers that I have found on the net... a tendency to have started in the business in partnership with their husbands.

http://photography.suite101.com/article.cfm/lola_alvarez_bravo

Often, because they shared equipment and cameras it can be difficult to tell which partner took any given photo in some instances.

This reminds me of the fact that photography is multi-faceted and that, while business acumen may be essential, good printing skills are also needed.

Scarlett68 wrote: »

Hi All,

Probably slighty off topic in that the gender issue is one thing but has anyone else noticed that a lot of us tend to be involved in IT...are we all trying to readdress the left brain/right brain imbalance?? Anyway, its just an observation, it maybe all in my own cerebral cortex:eek:

Some time back I started a thread about left handedness and photography. It got some very insightful comments.

melekalikimaka · 30-06-2009 6:56pm

my class is possibly more girls than guys, at least 50/50

CatchLight · 30-06-2009 7:11pm

Please don't take offence but I think men are more inclined to show-off. The male photographers I know seem to have massive egos (one or two to the point of being obnoxious!!). Maybe this means that they are better at selling their business. Maybe they become better and more successful in photography because they believe in their own ability.

One thing I've noticed from here is people processing other peoples photos without even asking their permission :eek:. Now I don't know whether they are male or female but i'd put my money on them being male. I would consider this quite rude and would never dream of taking someone's photo to see if I could do a better job. Is anyone with me on this one?

I would agree with Earthhorse and others who say females often underestimate themselves... so true!

KarmaGarda · 30-06-2009 7:30pm

CatchLight wrote: »

One thing I've noticed from here is people processing other peoples photos without even asking their permission :eek:. Now I don't know whether they are male or female but i'd put my money on them being male. I would consider this quite rude and would never dream of taking someone's photo to see if I could do a better job. Is anyone with me on this one?

For me here it depends on the circumstance. If someone posted a thread looking for C&C on their photo I'll have no problem offering my opinion on how I would crop the photograph. I have even gone as far as showing an example image of how I would have cropped it. I see this as acceptable. I probably wouldn't go as far as doing a full PP on it unless they asked.

On the other hand, if someone just posted a photo in the Random thread I think it's probably not acceptable to take it and PP it without them requesting advice, or without the asking permission.

AnCatDubh · 30-06-2009 8:05pm

CatchLight wrote: »

Please don't take offence but I think men are more inclined to show-off. The male photographers I know seem to have massive egos (one or two to the point of being obnoxious!!). Maybe this means that they are better at selling their business. Maybe they become better and more successful in photography because they believe in their own ability.

I think you are right but I don't think it's exclusively in the photography profession.

You have hit on the confidence v arrogance debate which is real interesting from a sociology perspective. i.e. you may be confidently competent or perhaps competently arrogant. I prefer people who are the former rather than the latter. I think you encounter both styles in both genders but perhaps there is a trend to be noted.

Anouilh · 03-07-2009 5:23pm

trishw78 wrote: »

... As much as feminist movement in the 60's & 70's changed alot for us ladies it's still a male dominated society & world.
....

It's hard for women to be single minded & focused on a goal without letting other distractions getting in the way.
...

At some time in the late 'eighties I decided that if men wanted to rule the World, that would be their own look out.

When I find this sort of site

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/5543588/Adventurer-to-be-dropped-in-Canadian-wilderness-for-12-weeks.html

I am only too glad I don't have to join them...

As for concentration, that may be an individual trait, not gender related. However, I have noticed that some people seem to think that women's time is not as valuable as men's. They are deluded.

I like gender co-operation. There is a photo of me taken in the middle of Tasmania, looking in horror at Cradle Mountain. If it were not for th man who got me there and took the photo, I would be content to just go shopping in town.

Do you think it is possible to work out the gender of the photographer when looking at a photo?

03-07-2009 6:47pm

CabanSail wrote: »

Another issue is that until many posters here state their gender, it is often unknown. Some usernames do suggest one gender or another but most are quite neutral.

I'd just like to point out - I'm a guy!

Anouilh · 04-07-2009 8:31pm

This introduction to an exhibition of work by women photographers is well written:

http://www.womeninphotography.org/archive08-Oct01/gallery3/index.htm

Since the poll here indicates a gender imbalance in membership, perhaps inviting members (of any gender) from other fora would bring new ideas to the group?

It has struck me that age might also be a factor. I have time now to work on photos that I would have found impossible to find while working and rearing children.

Beth · 04-07-2009 9:03pm

Another female here - whos interest in photography came from both mother and father.
Another one who likes to take pics of cars but not as much nowadays.
and yet another one who is involved in IT.

CatchLight wrote: »

One thing I've noticed from here is people processing other peoples photos without even asking their permission :eek:. Now I don't know whether they are male or female but i'd put my money on them being male. I would consider this quite rude and would never dream of taking someone's photo to see if I could do a better job. Is anyone with me on this one?

Yes, I'd agree. I would see that as rude also, not just the lack of permission but also that different people see different things.

Women and Photography

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