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Swearing / Affirming in Court

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  • 12-03-2009 10:17pm
    #1
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭


    Just wondering if you are still expected to swear on the bible in the Irish court system and if so, what the general view on afirming instead is?

    I would subscribe to the biblical view that Christians "should not swear by heaven or by earth or by anything else"


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    #2
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Affirming, rather than swearing an oath, has been legal in Irish courts since at least as far back as 1937. It has been legal in British courts since the time of William of Orange.


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    #3
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭homer911


    Thanks PDN - Do you know if the judiciary take a dim view of affirmation or is it considered "normal practice" these days?


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    #4
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Since my conversion to Christianity 28 years ago I've spent much less time in courtrooms than I used to prior to my conversion. :)

    However, I would be very surprised if opting for affirmation was viewed in anyway as prejudical or negatively within the system. The whole business of affirming was a hard won legal right centuries ago, primarily because of the early Quakers who refused to swear oaths on biblical grounds.


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    #5
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    PDN wrote: »
    Since my conversion to Christianity 28 years ago I've spent much less time in courtrooms than I used to prior to my conversion. :)

    Are we supposed to be impressed by this?
    It begs the question why PDN couldn't behave himself like any normal person before hand. Maybe some people need a the stick of eternal damnation in order to act like a civilized human being.

    I was up before the beak for a parking violation recently. I noted there was also a Qu'ran sitting there for people to swear on. There I was all ready to refuse to swear an oath on any book, and the thing was struck out 'cause the guard didn't turn up! Maybe next time...

    Considering people commit perjury on a daily basis the ritual of swearing on the bible is probably about as relevant as the wearing of wigs and robes. All of which are outdated IMO. Mind you the Irish courts system don't really do progress do they?


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    #6
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    studiorat wrote: »
    Are we supposed to be impressed by this?
    It begs the question why PDN couldn't behave himself like any normal person before hand. Maybe some people need a the stick of eternal damnation in order to act like a civilized human being.

    Call off your dogs, stuidorat. I really don't think it is necessary to look for a fight in this thread.


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    #7
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Call off your dogs, stuidorat. I really don't think it is necessary to look for a fight in this thread.[/QUOT

    It's a valid question. Were you a habitual criminal before you converted to Christianity Fanny? I doubt it somehow. I would like to know why PDN feels he needs to mention it as it's not particularly relevant to the discussion.

    The thread is about swearing on the bible in an Irish court of law. And as I stated it's about as relevant as the wearing of the wig. If I was to go to court tomorrow I'd be faced with the choice of either lying by taking an oath on the bible or drawing undue attention to myself and causing an unnecessary fuss and thereby risking the outcome of any decision in court.


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    #8
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    studiorat wrote: »
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Call off your dogs, stuidorat. I really don't think it is necessary to look for a fight in this thread.[/QUOT

    It's a valid question. Were you a habitual criminal before you converted to Christianity Fanny? I doubt it somehow. I would like to know why PDN feels he needs to mention it as it's not particularly relevant to the discussion.

    The thread is about swearing on the bible in an Irish court of law. And as I stated it's about as relevant as the wearing of the wig. If I was to go to court tomorrow I'd be faced with the choice of either lying by taking an oath on the bible or drawing undue attention to myself and causing an unnecessary fuss and thereby risking the outcome of any decision in court.

    I read it as an off the cuff remark by PDN and therefore see no reason to launch into an analysis of his morals before and after the fact of his conversion.

    As you point out yourself, this thread is about swearing on the bible in an Irish court of law. If you are really that interested in finding out about criminal activities of PDN or myself then it would be best suited to another thread. Though I fear that we will be revisiting the morality question yet again.


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    #9
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    studiorat wrote: »
    I would like to know why PDN feels he needs to mention it as it's not particularly relevant to the discussion.
    It was a little joke in response to a direct question from Homer. The kind of thing that happens on Discussion Boards all the time. Haven't you got anything better to do with your time than trying to start pointless arguments?


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    #10
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    studiorat wrote: »
    Are we supposed to be impressed by this?

    Well its certainly good to hear that PDN refomed from a criminal past. I personally like to hear the testimony of folk who've had their life changed by Christs message. Its not 'impressive', but its uplifting for me as a christian, so I certainly welcome such a comment.
    It begs the question why PDN couldn't behave himself like any normal person before hand.

    Well we ask that of any criminal don't we. Why do they do it? I would think that the intelligent question in this circumstance is, 'What made you change?'. Surely thats the positive question as it solved a big problem. Your hatread of Christianity really clouds your reasoning SR.
    Maybe some people need a the stick of eternal damnation in order to act like a civilized human being.

    Or maybe you just hate the thought of Christianity being a positive influence on someone's life. I think you could pick a fight in an empty room.


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    #11
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    homer911 wrote: »
    I would subscribe to the biblical view that Christians "should not swear by heaven or by earth or by anything else"

    Ok back on topic. In the Old Testament before the law was given they used to swear oaths by putting their hands under the thigh of the person to whom the vow or oath was being made. See below:


    "He said to the chief servant in his household, the one in charge of all that he had, "Put your hand under my thigh. I want you to swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites" Genesis 24:2

    "So the servant put his hand under the thigh of his master Abraham and swore an oath to him concerning this matter." Genesis 24:9

    "When the time drew near for Israel to die, he called for his son Joseph and said to him, "If I have found favor in your eyes, put your hand under my thigh and promise that you will show me kindness and faithfulness. Do not bury me in Egypt," Genesis 47:29


    The word translated thigh in these verses is 'Yarek' which literally means loins or the generative parts, the gentiles in short. It is interesting to note that this was also the part of the body that circumcision was made and circumcision was God's covenant mark or testament mark given to Abraham and his descendants.


    "This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised." Genesis 17:10


    Today God's covenant or Testament is in two parts, the 'Old' and the 'New'. The reason we probably started swearing on it possibly came from the Old Testament practice of placing one's hand on the loins of the person who was the object of the vow or oath.

    In saying all that, it is not compulsory to swear on the Bible in a court of law. Refraining from it might result in the odd frown from the odd Jury member but it should be noted in the court as to why you refuse to swear. I'd just tell them that it states specifically in the very book I'm being asked to swear on, that we are not to swear on anything on earth or heaven, rather let your 'yes' be 'yes', and your 'no' be 'no'. Matthew 5:34-37


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    #12
    mickeydevine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭mickeydevine


    Well done PDN, but since we're giving out kudos can I point out that I've never been in trouble with the filth and never needed to participate in godly ego-strokeage to achieve this feat, What do I get?:)............oh yeah, firey damnation in the pits of hell. Cheers anyway.:(


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    #13
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    mickeydevine wrote: »
    Well done PDN, but since we're giving out kudos can I point out that I've never been in trouble with the filth and never needed to participate in godly ego-strokeage to achieve this feat, What do I get?:)............oh yeah, firey damnation in the pits of hell. Cheers anyway.:(

    Is today National Troll Day or something?

    No-one was looking for kudos.

    If you go to hell then that is your choice.


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    #14
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    studiorat wrote: »
    Are we supposed to be impressed by this?
    It begs the question why PDN couldn't behave himself like any normal person before hand. Maybe some people need a the stick of eternal damnation in order to act like a civilized human being.

    I read it as part joke, part reason why he knows a little bit about court. Relevant because it means he's been in there a few times. Certainly don't see the need to have a go at him over it.


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    #15
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    studiorat wrote: »
    Are we supposed to be impressed by this?
    It begs the question why PDN couldn't behave himself like any normal person before hand. Maybe some people need a the stick of eternal damnation in order to act like a civilized human being.

    Wow, least appropriate post ever.


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    #16
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Húrin wrote: »
    Wow, least appropriate post ever.

    Oh the indignation! Save us... What about the children!!!

    It was a rebuttal to an off the cuff remark, but a remark which illustrates a point of view that seems to be taken for granted on this forum, that believing in a god somehow makes you a better person. I just think it's a pity that PDN couldn't take come of the credit for actually taking charge of his own life.

    Swearing on the bible in court does not constitute an oath as such. The use of the bible is to give soleminty to the ritual. The hippocratic oath for example begins by swearing to Apollo.
    I swear by Apollo the physician, by AEsculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgement, the following Oath.

    So although you make the oath supposedly with a book of scripture in hand. You are actually making the oath which you your self are responsible for keeping before the court, not before any of the above mentioned gods.


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    #17
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    studiorat wrote: »
    Oh the indignation! Save us... What about the children!!!
    I don't see any indignation, just disdain.
    It was a rebuttal to an off the cuff remark, but a remark which illustrates a point of view that seems to be taken for granted on this forum, that believing in a god somehow makes you a better person. I just think it's a pity that PDN couldn't take come of the credit for actually taking charge of his own life.
    No, the remark was a simple response to a direct question from Homer. He asked me about courtroom procedures and I replied that I am not as familiar with the inside of a courtroom as I used to be.

    If you really wanted to make a serious point, rather than just spit your ideological bile (or personal spite), then there are plenty of threads that discuss the link between religion and morality.

    I certainly don't think that "believing in a god" makes you a better person. I think that committing your life to Jesus Christ, allowing His Holy Spirit to indwell you, and seeking to live by God's commands and precepts will indeed make you a better person. Furthermore, I know thousands of people who testify that this is their experience.
    Swearing on the bible in court does not constitute an oath as such. The use of the bible is to give soleminty to the ritual. The hippocratic oath for example begins by swearing to Apollo.
    What has the Hippocratic oath got to do with Irish law?


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    #18
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭homer911


    Sorry PDN - didnt mean this to get out of hand. Now I wont feel so bad about wanting to affirm when being called as a witness


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    #19
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    homer911 wrote: »
    Sorry PDN - didnt mean this to get out of hand. Now I wont feel so bad about wanting to affirm when being called as a witness

    No problem, that's the nature of internet discussion boards. If you leave a light on and open a window then some bugs are bound to come in.

    I hope everything goes OK with you in court. Let us know how the affirming goes.


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