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Personal issues question

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  • 11-03-2009 3:01am
    #1
    speaktofrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭


    i was reading the Personal Issues forum tonight and I came upon this thread.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055509679

    Now before anyone says it, I am neither the OP or the person who had their thread locked questioning the decision to lock the thread.

    I am just a little suprised that someone who obviously spent at least 10 minutes of their life telling the rest of us their innermost feelings and thoughts would be answered like that by a mod.

    The goal of Pi is to help people talk about their issues and help them feel a little better about whatever is disturbing them and possibly propose ways to solve their problem not copy and paste the number to the Samaritans.

    Or indeed if this is a new policy why not just lock the PI forum altogether and just include a stickied thread with a number for the Samaritans.
    The OP had a valid issue and though the mod who locked is usually great with people who reply there, in this instance it seemed a little cold hearted.
    Maybe there is a legal issue here but I remember a post a few months back where someone was in the same position and felt suicidal and the posters there managed to make them feel a lot better and helped him/her consider other less dramatic alternatives.
    Post edited by Shield on


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    #2
    The Sweeper
    Registered Users Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    I think it was the correct call.

    Nobody who posts on PI is equipped to advise a truly suicidal poster. (Even the Samaritans are there to listen more than advise - something that frustrates some posters on PI, who come to PI after having tried the Samaritans, because they are past the need to rant and now want solutions.)

    The OP's case is very specific and the OP appears to be extremely fragile. When you post a thread in PI, you are the most interested person in that thread, so you will refresh and refresh to catch every new post as it happens. It was late in the evening, the PI mods are allowed to sleep, and who's to say that some gutless troll couldn't have gotten in there in the small hours with a destructive post that stayed up for just long enough to shatter the OP completely?

    Also, you're attributing a 'tone' to Thaedydal's reply that I am just not seeing. She didn't post "We're not interested, tell someone who cares." She posted "Please talk to a professional who can help you" and even provided a number to save the OP having to look it up.

    Incidentally, Thaed has also accurately identified a high-risk user - people who have specifically thought of how to kill themselves, as this poster has, may be of imminent danger to themselves.

    It was the right call through and through.


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    #3
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    There is a difference between talking about your issues and talking about killing yourself. A nasty comment, someone saying the wrong thing or someone being a complete dick (which happens a lot on line) could be enough to push someone over the edge. Locking these threads and pointing them towards the samaritans is a neccessary evil.


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    #4
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,278 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    Whatever about the past, it's now standard practice for us to lock potential suicide threads immediately. This is not meant to be insensitive to the OP's plight, but rather due to a number of reasons:

    1. PI mods are not trained counsellors, and therefore have not got the expertise to deal with someone who is threatening to kill themself. The Samaritans have a lot more experience of this and that's why the link was posted.

    2. While some PI posters may well be trained counsellors, we have no way of knowing which ones are and can offer genuine help and support, and which ones are just well-intentioned posters who may inadvertantly give poor advice that the OP acts on.

    3. Many of these threads start late at night when there are usually no mods around. However there are always plenty of posters and an emotive subject such as this is bound to attract them. Leaving such a sensitive thread open and unmoderated overnight is a recipe for disaster as the OP is left at the mercy of every troll and smartarse on the internet.

    4. The legal situation is unclear. If someone posted a new suicide thread and subsequently killed themself, there's always the possibility, however remote, that one of their relatives might take some sort of legal action against Boards or an individual poster based on a post in the thread.

    I'm sorry if this policy seems a little harsh to you, but it's in place to protect all concerned parties, especially the OP.


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    #5
    oleras
    Registered Users Posts: 2,721 ✭✭✭oleras


    i was under the impression that all unreged posts had to be pre-approved by a PI mod, is this still the case ?


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    #6
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    oleras wrote: »
    i was under the impression that all unreged posts had to be pre-approved by a PI mod, is this still the case ?

    Yes, but if you don't approve the post and give a reply, how will the OP ever see you tell them to get help?
    They'll just think you deleted their thread.


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    #7
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    I believe it was the correct call. The reality of PI is that not every post is going to sympathise and offer positive advice. Some posters will troll and will cause problems by ridiculing the OP. Now, if someone makes a thread saying that they are suicidal, one can only assume that they are of very fragile mind. No-one knows how the OP would react if someone said something deeply insensitive. It could very well trigger a snap reaction from the OP into doing something rash. If that happened then it would be a problem for everyone; both for the OP, the OP's extended family and for Boards in a legal sense. Rather than playing a game of roulette the Mod gave the best advice that you can possibly give to someone on the internet under such circumstances and closed the thread. Completely the right call.


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    #8
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    The reasons for closing threads like these are covered very well above.
    It is just a case of us not being qualified for people on the brink like this.


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    #9
    cantdecide
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    I agree with Speaktofrank in some respects. I wouldn't say for a second that anyone who posts in PI is qualified to advise people who are suicidal. Of course they should be locked, IMO. I think what he is saying and I would agree is that it's a question of bedside manner.

    People are often so desperate that they lay it all out there trying to get some help. I think it's very insensitive to be turned away with a stock one sentence response that effectively says 'go somewhere else- we can't help you here' without an awful lot of explanation. I find the mod messages in these situations a bit blunt and blase at times. I would think if I were in that kind of emotional state, I would feel dismissed.


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    #10
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    I understand the mods issue here but as someone who was in that fragile state im afraid after some thought on it i would strongly urge the pi mods to reconsider their policy on it. Pi is a great service and ppl in this frame of mind are just needing to talk, they expect harsh comments, they get them everyday from themselves, but an understanding poster reply is worth much more. You dont need to be an expert, just a pair of ears.
    people come to me sometimes because of what ive been through and ask me to talk to friends or relatives that are in a bad way. I spent 2 hours on the phone valentines evening with a sister of a friend simply listening more than talking.

    I would urge you guys to think about it and try to come to some arrangment.


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    #11
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    We had an incedent last year were a pi mod was up all hours with a person who was threathening to kill themselves. We are not trained for that or the emotional fall out
    and impact that has on the person just listening. It is more then just listening
    and we do not have enough information to help the person.

    While the manner in which I have rebuffed the poster may seem harsh it is delibrately not enguaging with so that they will keep reaching out and then supplying them
    information to do that rather then letting them spend more of thier emotional coin
    trying to make a connection here.

    Even if it is a case that the thread is a para sucide rather then actual suicide we
    can not take that risk and we can not help those who are engaugeing in para suicide
    which is the cry for help as we are not qualified, do not have the training,
    to not have the back up and do not have the after care we would need.

    I don't see boards.ie paying for the counselling of the PI mods tbh.


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    #12
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Aye, doctors will give anti depressants just to cover his arse, the person may not need them but at least he tried. The other professions will send you from one expert to another until you end up in the mental hospital, and everyone is afraid of you because theyve watched to many movies of the guy going to jump off the building.

    moral of the story.. Go somewhere else, we cant help you.

    we need to stop treating these people like their stupid, or mad.. They know you are just another opinion, but now just another closed door.

    im not havin a go at yot guys, but i resent being treated like im mad, bad or stupid by people.

    everyone is afraid.


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    #13
    cantdecide
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    ...While the manner in which I have rebuffed the poster may seem harsh it is delibrately not enguaging with so that they will keep reaching out...

    While neither of us are professional counselors, as someone who suffered depression in the past, I can assure you, to make any kind of contact or cry for help is a very big deal. I certainly would have posted on the net before I'd call a 'real person' whether a trained person from an official service or not. Being personally and publicly told go away by a mod must only exacerbate things IMO. In other words, I know how I would feel.

    I would maybe suggest a sticky outlaying why posts from someone considering suicide can't be 'entertained'. It could be sensitive enough to push them in the right direction but impersonal by it's very nature. 'Please read the sticky' would then be acceptably blunt, IMO.


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    #14
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    If that poster had not have put sucide in the title of thier post and if they had not
    said they were looking for a way to end it all then that thread would have been
    left as it stands we can not let threads with that content continue.

    I've suffered from depression, I have been on ssri a few times and I have been sucidal in the past.
    If a person has reached that dark and twisted place then we are not able to help
    them as that mindset is beyong what the the PI forum was set up for.

    I don't think that someone who is on meds for depression or other brain conditions is
    mad or stupid I grew up with my Dad who is epilptic and a close family friend who
    is bipolar.

    What I do know is that people will reach out, but when they hit the wall when they are
    more then flirting with the idea of death being the solution then they need the type
    of help this site simply for a range of reasons can not offer.


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    #15
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    The policy seems spot-on IMO. I remember last year or the year before, a girl who claimed to be suicidal started a thread and it was early evening, which was just as well because some genius decided to post "go on so... do us a favour and kill yourself" so thankfully a moderator was around to delete it immediately. Far less likelihood of a mod being around at 2.00 in the morning though.
    I remember another girl starting a thread about how she had no friends, and complaining that nobody cared about her because she wasn't getting any responses at 1am (it wasn't a suicidal thread but the point is, she wasn't in a rational frame of mind at that hour so I'd imagine the risk of that would be even greater in the case of a suicidal person).
    I've been in the real-life situation of staying up all night with a person who is suicidal and trying to persuade them not to do it, to consider what they have to live for etc - it's nothing short of terrifying. The sense of responsibility yet powerlessness you feel are utterly overwhelming. So imagine being in that position with a stranger whom you can't see and who can't see you? It's too much - far, far too much.

    That said though, while I don't think the tone was cold, could it perhaps be worded a bit differently to advise the person that it's not a matter of not caring, it just would be far more beneficial for them if they spoke to professionals? What if there was a risk that the person, in their fragile state of mind, read into it "Sorry, can't help you, move along"?


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    #16
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    I have also had my own brush with a suicidal person on PI some years back.
    As a result of that particular encounter, I will never again engage with someone in that frame of mind.
    Every so often I still think of him.
    I do not know what he did and I was taught a valuable lesson about not getting involved in something that is WAY over my head.


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    #17
    Giblet
    Registered Users Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    Dealing in life or death matters is beyond the duty of the moderators. Closing threads on sight with a phone number to people who can help is 100% the only response.


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    #18
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    The correct action was taken in locking the thread. It's clear that the poster has issues that cant and wont be resolved on a message forum. While words of support would also help, who is to say that it wouldnt take one inappropriate post to push the poster into a worse position?

    People in situations like the OP are crying out for help. They need someone to point them in the right direction for professional help. But many of us are afraid to talk to professionals or doctors. Its hard to believe thats its 2009 yet there are people developing cancer and getting treated at a late stage only because they were too afraid or too proud to visit their GP to get a lump checked out.

    Emotional issues are no different. Id imagine many people would feel ashamed to admit they needed to speak to someone professionally, and perish the thought that a neighbour would find out.

    Unfortunately though, I dont think there is anything that the mod who locked the thread could have said that would have inspired the OP to seeker appropriate help any quicker. I personally wouldnt have replied to the post in the same way, but then again Im not a qualified anything so I dont really know what the best way to respond is.

    Its worth pointing out that many helplines, particularly those aimed at young people, offer a completely anonymous service as a vote of confidence to the caller that no one will ever identify them or follow up on a call. Its done to encourage those in need to make contact. However the flip side of it is where the line is drawn in terms of involvement.


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    #19
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    The Hitcher wrote: »
    Dealing in life or death matters is beyond the duty of the moderators. Closing threads on sight with a phone number to people who can help is 100% the only response.

    ive found AWARE better than any medical practioner, but its a case of horses for courses im sure. Id say your suggestion is best if done with some sensitivity.


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    #20
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I have found that if I put any more in those posts or if I enguage with the poster
    they lock on to me and start pming me and then rejecting them and not answering
    thier pms is worse tbh both on them and me.


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    #21
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,204 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    It's best to lock them, to be honest. They fall under the umbrella/rule of not allowing medical advice. These type of threads can cause inordinate amounts of worry, distress and shift the dynamics of a website. I've seen it happen before with people getting far too personally involved...a long time ago a person claiming to have a PhD and knowledge of overdoses got overly involved and the number of OD threads rose dramatically because people thought she could help them. It was pretty awful and she was eventually banned to ensure the safety of members. There are some internet spaces where it is OK to discuss suicidal thoughts and feelings, but notes, intent, plans 'I've closed all my bank accounts, I will take 20 paracetmol, please tell my family I love them' etc etc should never be allowed. Some websites are supportive, but are never a replacement for real help. People may well have qualifications or have completed ASIST training, but there are too many variables and unknowns online, you can never know the full story...trying to track their IP address is probably not very healthy.

    Giving contact info for the Samaritans is OK (they also have text and email contact info), some people will find them a bit hit and miss. They will stay on the line if someone wishes to kill themselves, though they may offer to call an ambulance.. Perhaps the OP should also be encouraged to present at their local A & E and ask to speak to the on duty psychiatrist, though I appreciate talking to one about how things are is probably bloody difficult. What about providing other phone numbers such as Aware, not everyone will check the stickies. There may also be scope for a line or two about why the thread is being locked, the mods are not trained, it's good that the person at least felt able to reach out to one place even if we can't offer support etc. Briefly recognising how the person is feeling might be an incentive for them to get further help otherwise locking with one phone number might be seen as instant rejection. That said, I can see each side of this..a person may equally then latch on to a mod via PM (as Thaed mentioned), it's awkward, PI mods seem sound enough in exercising their discretion and I guess it will depend on what the OP has said.

    I'm not surprised many of the threads are late in the day, that tends to be when most incidents of self-harm are presented at A & E (for those that attend, many do not), for example.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



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    #22
    speaktofrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭speaktofrank


    I can understand the part about not allowing medical advice but maybe she was just looking for someone to talk to and some reassurance that the affliction she had was not the end of the world.

    That said I can understand why it was a better idea to lock it, particulary with it being so late.
    Maybe a reply like ' I am sorry to hear that you are feeling so low, however I don't think this is the best place to do it. Remember suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and that there are professionals out there who can and will help you.'

    Then insert the Samaritans number. Maybe cold hearted was the wrong expression, a little dismissive maybe, but I am sure the mod didn't want it to sound like that. Maybe a sticky could be created in the PI forum advising people of what to do if they ever feel like this?


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    #23
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    I can see your point. I think the best solution is to put italics on the "please" of the response to ensure the person understands we arent pushing them away, we're trying/hoping they will do the best thing they can for themselves and that is to speak to someone directly who can help them.

    DeV.


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