Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Junior doctor Died on Call In hospital

Options
  • 07-03-2009 7:52pm
    #1
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭


    I know a lot of docs read these posts
    I was wondering had any of you heard of a junior doctor who died on call in a hospital in the North east recently

    sad story but seems to be very quiet why would this not have made the news
    Could it have had anything to do with his long working hours

    Will there be an investigation of his work schema, workload etc

    I heard he was a non national doctor so he may not have nay family here or anyone asking these questions on his behalf now


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    Jane5
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭Jane5


    I had heard of this as well. Many docs have suffered cardiac events in their 20s and 30s in Ireland as a direct result of workiong extended shifts-NOT long weekly hours for any non medics reading, but extended shifts, ie. shifts that go on for longer than 30 hours straight and up to 60 something with no sleep or meals.
    I have personally known of several docs who suffered arrhythmias requiring treatment, one in his late 20s who developed a.fib after 56 hours on duty and was warfarinised. One who dropped dead, two who committed suicide and another who died in bed, all in their twenties. There have been many, many RTAs involving docs post call and some have been serious or fatal.


  • Options
    #3
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    Jane5 wrote: »
    I had heard of this as well. Many docs have suffered cardiac events in their 20s and 30s in Ireland as a direct result of workiong extended shifts-NOT long weekly hours for any non medics reading, but extended shifts, ie. shifts that go on for longer than 30 hours straight and up to 60 something with no sleep or meals.
    I have personally known of several docs who suffered arrhythmias requiring treatment, one in his late 20s who developed a.fib after 56 hours on duty and was warfarinised. One who dropped dead, two who committed suicide and another who died in bed, all in their twenties. There have been many, many RTAs involving docs post call and some have been serious or fatal.

    I have heard of similar stories.
    A friend started to develop SVT (an irregular heart beat) while on call. It happened a few times, always when she had been working more hours straight than non-medics could comprehend as feasible. She had to keep working, of course!
    She never had it before.
    Between cardiac arrhythmias, RTAs, depression, exhaustion and forcing ill and heavily pregnant doctors to work inhumane hours we deserve our current pay & entitlements and danger pay at least!!


  • Options
    #4
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Svalbard wrote: »
    I have heard of similar stories.
    A friend started to develop SVT (an irregular heart beat) while on call. It happened a few times, always when she had been working more hours straight than non-medics could comprehend as feasible. She had to keep working, of course!
    She never had it before.
    Between cardiac arrhythmias, RTAs, depression, exhaustion and forcing ill and heavily pregnant doctors to work inhumane hours we deserve our current pay & entitlements and danger pay at least!!

    am more concerned here because the chap may no have family or relatives here and that he may have died anonymously

    The only concern in the hospital is likely to be who will do his on call work now he cant


  • Options
    #5
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    holy moly I never knew doctors had it so bad. Do the long shifts not contravene labour or union laws?


  • Options
    #6
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Valmont wrote: »
    holy moly I never knew doctors had it so bad. Do the long shifts not contravene labour or union laws?

    Yep, it contravenes the European Working Time Directive, but the government just pays the fine for breaking the rules every year, as far as I know.

    Cheaper than paying to train more docs, I guess.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    it's not a temporary problem either , it's being going on as long as I can remember

    in the past Junior Doctors got less pay for "overtime" than normal time so the incentive was to work them as hard as possible

    I'm pretty sure if they got the same overtime rates as other workers the hospitals would be able to take on more of them as it would be cheaper.

    of course there are times when people in the health service need to work long hours because there more patients etc. , but that time is shouldn't be from before they were born till some distant time in the future

    Has there ever been a formal study of number of people who have been mistreated because a Doctor was physically incapable of being as alert as one would have a right to expect ?
    How do these statics compare to the North where I assume doctors only have to work 56 hours a week with an 11 hour break in every 24 hours ?

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1174715
    BMJ. 1999 June 26
    The country's junior doctors were furious after the recent decision by the European Union to defer the implementation of a 48 hour working week for 13 years. They currently work an official week of 65 hours but regularly work 100 hours or more, including non-stop shifts of 72 hours
    :mad::mad:


  • Options
    #8
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Yep, it contravenes the European Working Time Directive, but the government just pays the fine for breaking the rules every year, as far as I know.

    Cheaper than paying to train more docs, I guess.

    There have been no fines yet from Europe

    Docs on ground reluctant to take their employers to court

    Law broken every day by almost every doc on multiple sections

    If the law was enforced hospitals would have to close and the employers use this as reverse spin pressure among the other staff too " you dont want to be responsible for all these people losing their jobs do you" was a quote I particularly remember

    Wont hire more docs, anti government policy
    They actually want to reduce junior docs and employ consultants, in short term that will mean even longer hours of the juniors until they get enough consultants, catch 22 gain

    EXAMPLE

    Small hospital 40 junior docs, 8 consultants, do you really think they are going to swing teh ratio the other way round and have 40 consultants, I doubt it. If you live near a small hospital get a deal with someone who has a helicopter if you want to get to a hospital in a hurry


  • Options
    #9
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    drzhivago wrote: »
    The only concern in the hospital is likely to be who will do his on call work now he cant

    You know it. I bet Medical Manpower contacted the team to tell them they have no rights to compassionate leave to attend their colleagues funeral and that no locum would be provided.
    Valmont wrote: »
    holy moly I never knew doctors had it so bad. Do the long shifts not contravene labour or union laws?

    Yes. Calling it slave labour is not too much of a stretch.


  • Options
    #10
    localhothead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭localhothead


    jesus christ - this is incredible - seriously -

    is a banded together show of strenght not going to help ?

    youve got to do something - your people are dying because of it - holy fcuk !


  • Options
    #11
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    localhothead wrote: »
    jesus christ - this is incredible - seriously -

    is a banded together show of strenght not going to help ?

    youve got to do something - your people are dying because of it - holy fcuk !

    Nope
    People have been getting sick and dying for a while
    No one really cares

    went to a funeral at the weekend 42 yr old doc, died in UK, sudden death, nothing suspicious, but she served many years here too before she left

    On a different note The numbers of suicides in the last 10 years is well above average for an age matched population, the number of marriage break ups and the rate of cardiac disease

    For a supposedly intelligent group we are not doing ourselves justice


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    That's what unions are for...

    Apart from anything else, from the patients' point of view it would be much better to have two doctors working 40 hours each than one doctor working 80 hours.


  • Options
    #13
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Surely something could be done? Maybe this explains why a doctor missed a 5 inch crack on my skull looking at an X-ray just like Dr. Hibert in the Simpsons. Seriously though these hours must affect both patients and doctors alike. I have a new found respect for doctors knowing the conditions they work in.


  • Options
    #14
    DrIndy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭DrIndy


    The reason i was happy to stick things out so far is I'm a Type A personality and a workaholic - i genuinely love my job.

    But my personal life is very curtailed in balance compared to everyone else - these things i am sure will become more important as the years go by.


  • Options
    #15
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    DrIndy wrote: »
    The reason i was happy to stick things out so far is I'm a Type A personality and a workaholic - i genuinely love my job.

    But my personal life is very curtailed in balance compared to everyone else - these things i am sure will become more important as the years go by.

    If the years go by.


  • Options
    #16
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Valmont wrote: »
    Surely something could be done? Maybe this explains why a doctor missed a 5 inch crack on my skull looking at an X-ray just like Dr. Hibert in the Simpsons. Seriously though these hours must affect both patients and doctors alike. I have a new found respect for doctors knowing the conditions they work in.

    Do people still use skull xrays for fractures? Load of me arse. Maybe they're better in adults?
    localhothead wrote: »
    jesus christ - this is incredible - seriously -

    is a banded together show of strenght not going to help ?

    youve got to do something - your people are dying because of it - holy fcuk !

    Mate, all kinds of things are happening because of it.

    I really hate to say it, but Irish docs are being pussies. They're allowing the HSE to jack off on them from above, and all you hear is "my career will suffer if I speak out".

    I think there will be a lot of embarrassed docs in a few years who will squirm when they're telling their grandkids about the slave conditions they worked in. Little Timmy will say "what did you do about it, grandad? Did you guys stick it to the man? Did you rock the foundations of government with widespread civil disobedience?".

    "No, I didn't want to get in trouble, so i said nothing".

    Honestly, what point is there in being so protective of a career that regularly makes you work 56 hours on the trot, and might kill you???!!!!


  • Options
    #17
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Do people still use skull xrays for fractures? Load of me arse. Maybe they're better in adults?



    Mate, all kinds of things are happening because of it.

    I really hate to say it, but Irish docs are being pussies. They're allowing the HSE to jack off on them from above, and all you hear is "my career will suffer if I speak out".

    I think there will be a lot of embarrassed docs in a few years who will squirm when they're telling their grandkids about the slave conditions they worked in. Little Timmy will say "what did you do about it, grandad? Did you guys stick it to the man? Did you rock the foundations of government with widespread civil disobedience?".

    "No, I didn't want to get in trouble, so i said nothing".

    Honestly, what point is there in being so protective of a career that regularly makes you work 56 hours on the trot, and might kill you???!!!!

    Location Australia, eh? Must be nice.


  • Options
    #18
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    drzhivago wrote: »
    On a different note The numbers of suicides in the last 10 years is well above average for an age matched population, the number of marriage break ups and the rate of cardiac disease

    Pfft, Bipolar: Higher suicide rate, none of the money... ;):p


  • Options
    #19
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    I trained in the UK and never worked in Ireland. But if I did, I wouldn't be able to keep quiet about what's happening.


  • Options
    #20
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    nesf wrote: »
    Pfft, Bipolar: Higher suicide rate, none of the money... ;):p

    Actually, I've worked in departments with two residents who have taken their lives due to stress/upset.

    Here the incidence of depression in MD population sis high and they don't do nearly enough about it :(


  • Options
    #21
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    GuanYin wrote: »
    Actually, I've worked in departments with two residents who have taken their lives due to stress/upset.

    Here the incidence of depression in MD population sis high and they don't do nearly enough about it :(

    High stress + any underlying mental health problem no matter how small = bad stuff.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I trained in the UK and never worked in Ireland. But if I did, I wouldn't be able to keep quiet about what's happening.

    Ah ha............

    So your take on Irish docs is based on what exactly?


  • Options
    #23
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    The fact that they work slave labour hours and conditions AND accept it.


  • Options
    #24
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    The fact that they work slave labour hours and conditions AND accept it.

    I'm just going to take a few deep breaths here, before I say something I might regret. You are a mod, after all.


  • Options
    #25
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Svalbard wrote: »
    I'm just going to take a few deep breaths here, before I say something I might regret. You are a mod, after all.

    Say what you need to say. Don't worry about no mod stuff.


  • Options
    #26
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    fight!!! fight!!! fight!!!

    /gets popcorn and front row seat


  • Options
    #27
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Say what you need to say. Don't worry about no mod stuff.

    Eh, I'd guess that his point would be that you're talking a lot of trash about Irish doctors despite never working in a hospital here and not having any first hand experience of the system.

    Which is a fair point considering you're pretty much insulting them for not subscribing to your viewpoint on this. A moderator of a forum shouldn't be calling most of its denizens pussies and such imho.


  • Options
    #28
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Well, it's my opinion.
    I never stop people expressing their on here, and being a mod has nothing to do with it.

    I happen to think that a group of well educated, articulate, middle class doctors should just refuse to be treated the way they are.

    I don't need to work in the Irish health service to know that people are dying, and people are depressed, and people are working 56 hour shifts.

    I've worked 24 hour shifts, and I really don't know how getting a bit more practice at being miserable would change that opinion, or make it more valid.

    You don't have to be in a system to know it's wrong.

    I'm just fascinated by the fact that so many Irish NCHDs are so angry, but at the same time they're also so passive.


  • Options
    #29
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I've worked 24 hour shifts, and I really don't know how getting a bit more practice at being miserable would change that opinion, or make it more valid.

    You don't have to be in a system to know it's wrong.

    I'm just fascinated by the fact that so many Irish NCHDs are so angry, but at the same time they're also so passive.

    Raise head get shot
    Rise two heads get shot
    Raise multiple heads - HSE comes with machine gun

    Reminscent of Arlo Guthrie here

    "and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
    they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
    they may think they're both ******s and they won't take either of them.
    And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
    singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an
    organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
    fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and
    walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement. "

    Thats what we need a movement

    no matter how fast the HSE gun they wont cope with a movement of people out of the system


  • Options
    #30
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I don't need to work in the Irish health service to know that people are dying, and people are depressed, and people are working 56 hour shifts.

    But having not worked in it you might be unaware of the politics and union crap for ages gone by that have resulted in this system and why it's been so hard to change. The answer varies according to which doctor I chat to about this, the older doctors (consultants) lay the blame at the feet of the IMO and decisions it made many years ago (don't know the exact details and know nothing of IMO internal politics and history myself so can't judge this myself), other younger ones tend to blame the HSE or a combination of the two.

    It's very hard to know the whole story when you're outside a system as opaque as the Irish Health Service regardless of whether you're a medical professional or not, the UK system and history is very different. I can't judge these claims and just hold the position that the system is a mess and hesitate in apportioning the blame to any one group tbh.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    nesf wrote: »
    But having not worked in it you might be unaware of the politics and union crap for ages gone by that have resulted in this system and why it's been so hard to change. The answer varies according to which doctor I chat to about this, the older doctors (consultants) lay the blame at the feet of the IMO and decisions it made many years ago (don't know the exact details and know nothing of IMO internal politics and history myself so can't judge this myself), other younger ones tend to blame the HSE or a combination of the two.

    It's very hard to know the whole story when you're outside a system as opaque as the Irish Health Service regardless of whether you're a medical professional or not, the UK system and history is very different. I can't judge these claims and just hold the position that the system is a mess and hesitate in apportioning the blame to any one group tbh.

    Not sure how the older consultanst can lay the blame at the IMO they didnt create the working hours the hospitals and the consultanst did

    Any union only as strong as members so if members of union not willing to back the union they have small hand to negotiate with and lack the "NUTS" as the common poker parlance refers

    I know a lot about IMO politics, HSE politics, DOHC politics and blame is firmly with DOHC on this

    They have known for years hours could not come down until they made a startegic decision on what hospitals would eb 24 hour on call and what wouldnt

    The decision has been awaited for more than 20 years and it has been bottle don every occasion so the only way to staff these hospitals was to flood them with Junior docs, Irish docs wouldnt go there so they trowelled the world to find docs in india and Pakisatn. i Think in 2001 they had an overseas visitation of a few weeks to recruit more.

    They never went to irish medical schools to find out why so many were leaving, possibly because they had no remedy

    They went to countries and offered them jobs ina supposed 1st world Health service, some were amaxed to land here and find hospitals smaller than the wards they were used to back home

    They stay now for economic reasons not because the standard of training or healthcare is so high

    But if they leave in large numbers the smaller hspitals will fall

    www.pgmdb.ie

    and check the NCHD census it will tell a lot about who staffs what hospitals


Advertisement