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Views on keeping high-maintenance exotics (and other ethical issues)

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  • 16-02-2009 1:17pm
    #1
    Rory123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 601 ✭✭✭


    As described in title. To avoid the marmosette thread turning into what happened with the chimp one.
    I'll get the ball rolling by saying that I don't have a problem with certain people keeping certain pets. But I also think some people should not be allowed to keep as much as a goldfish!

    Mods: when this thread does start going round in circles please don't just lock it(once it is not abusive of course:rolleyes:). Let it continue and pretend it isn't there. As I believe this might prevent other threads from being spoiled!


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    #2
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Rory123 wrote: »

    Mods: when this thread does start going round in circles please don't just lock it(once it is not abusive of course:rolleyes:). Let it continue and pretend it isn't there. As I believe this might prevent other threads from being spoiled!


    While that all sounds well and good if the thread has run its course then unfortunately there is no other option than to close it.Ill keep an eye on it and if it starts going round in circles Ill try steer it back on topic before closing it.


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    #3
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Rory123 wrote: »
    As described in title. To avoid the marmosette thread turning into what happened with the chimp one.
    I'll get the ball rolling by saying that I don't have a problem with certain people keeping certain pets. But I also think some people should not be allowed to keep as much as a goldfish!

    Totally agree with you there however when it comes down to "protected" species Im of the opinion that there 2 types of people out there keeping these animals.

    1.There is the keeper who is doing it to (ok--maybe a bit far fetched) to keep the species from becoming extinct.And I have absolutely no problem with these people keeping any animal they want,provided thay can give the care to these animals so that they live a decent life.

    2.Then theres what Id call the "trophy" keeper.They want an animal just to say that they have one.They see pictures on the web,documentaries etc and decide that even though they have no knowledge of how hard or easy it is to keep the animal they just have to have one.

    With regards to primates Im still unsure as to whether they should be kept as pets.Since they usually live in large social groups in the wild I would find it very hard of any keeper to sustain this in captivity but if they could then Id have no problem with them keeping them.

    The point Im trying to make is that its all down to the keeper and whether they have the necessary experience and resources to keep any animal.
    Just my thoughts on it.


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    #4
    Rory123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 601 ✭✭✭Rory123


    Rory123 wrote: »
    I'll get the ball rolling by saying that I don't have a problem with certain people keeping certain pets. But I also think some people should not be allowed to keep as much as a goldfish!
    I should have said I have no problem with certain people keeping certain animals, as I wouldn't really call an exotic, non-domesticated, endangered species a "pet".


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    #5
    cavedave
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    What animals should a private citizen not be allowed keep? I think breeding programs and research labs could easily get some sort of separate license so I am not discussing them.

    What animals should controls be on? Here are some possibilities

    1. Homo Sapiens. I hope everyone believes that ownership of this particular primate should not be allowed. And there are laws that prohibit it. The question of how to make sure those humans that are under care of people due to their age or mental facilities are well cared for is an important one but probably not that connected to pet keeping.

    2. Public Safety (Polar bears). By this i mean all really aggressive predators. Its hard to imagine someone would try keep something like this. But there do seem to be people who keep big cats or bears though. I would guess from a public safety point of view some sort of check that these are kept in safe containment is important. But i have never heard of a person being eaten by an escaped Tiger so public safety is probably not that big an issue.

    3.Smart animals. Dolphins (again not practical) magpies, parrots. How intelligent does an animal have to be before keeping it as a pet is cruel? What test do we say "ok this is too smart to keep as a pet" on. Self recognistion in a mirror? langauge syntax? ability to lie? I don't think just because an animal is intelligent means it should not be a pet. It is hard to see someone who keeps a well cared for pair of Parrots and regard the action as cruel.

    4. Animals that are really like us. The Great Apes. These are both intelligent and very similar to us. But is keeping one as a pet wrong?

    5. General cruelty. Keeping an animal in conditions very different to its natural ones seems cruel. But how different do the conditions need to be?


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    #6
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    1. Homo Sapiens. I hope everyone believes that ownership of this particular primate should not be allowed. And there are laws that prohibit it. The question of how to make sure those humans that are under care of people due to their age or mental facilities are well cared for is an important one but probably not that connected to pet keeping.
    That is not relevant to the discussion. Stop mentioning it and posting graphics referring to same. Want to discuss it? Go to Humanities.


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    #7
    cavedave
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    Bond-007

    That is not relevant to the discussion. Stop mentioning it and posting graphics referring to same. Want to discuss it? Go to Humanities.

    Ok you are the moderator. You have not explained your reasoning though. By the currently accepted scientific theories we are just another species of animal. But fair enough I'll drop the issue.
    5. General cruelty. Keeping an animal in conditions very different to its natural ones seems cruel. But how different do the conditions need to be?

    This is probably the most relevant as the other issues might be more humanities/ethics/philosphy then pet keeping.


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    #8
    Munster Gal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭Munster Gal


    Rory123 wrote: »
    I'll get the ball rolling by saying that I don't have a problem with certain people keeping certain pets. But I also think some people should not be allowed to keep as much as a goldfish!

    QUOTE]

    That's it in a nutshell really. The core question isn't so much what animal is kept but can the owner care for it properly and will its needs will be met. There are as many animals killed with perceived kindness as are killed through neglect. I feel availability and access to all 'pets' particularly exotics needs to be regulated, policed and properly funded by the government. There are lots of animals I admire and could easily acquire as pets but I chose not to because I know I couldn't provide them with the quality of life they need, unfortunately too many people put their own desires before that of these animals.


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    #9
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    cavedave wrote: »
    Ok you are the moderator. You have not explained your reasoning though. By the currently accepted scientific theories we are just another species of animal. But fair enough I'll drop the issue.

    Well heres my take on it--Keeping a human "as a pet" is not pet keeping--its slavery.Hence the reason why we want it dropped from this thread.Humanities would be a more appropriate place for discussing the whole slavery issue unless you`re going to start comparing the keeping/working of a carthorse,sleighdog,rescue dog to the keeping of a human and being made to work.
    5. General cruelty. Keeping an animal in conditions very different to its natural ones seems cruel. But how different do the conditions need to be?
    My take on this is that ideally a keeper should try and make the habitat of any pet as close to its natural environment as possible.Ive seen all manner of animals kept in cruel conditions and which the owner did not even aim for the closeness to the natural habitat of the animal--lizards with the wrong heating/lighting,snakes kept in tiny cages,parrots/birds kept in small enclosures,dogs being locked up all day while the owners work.
    Social animals need to be in a social group,animals with huge roaming ranges cant be kept in a cage.
    Richie.


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    #10
    Lauragoesmad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Lauragoesmad


    I don't think anyone should keep any primates whatsoever. I feel that even though there are a few good people who keep them, I think it would be in their best interest not to support the trade of monkeys and primates. There are too many crackpots who just jump on the bandwagon or use monkeys as child replacements. (Michael Jackson and Hugh Heffner's girlfriend)
    I actually don't really agree with keeping a lot of animals. Large lizards, snakes, birds and espeicially people who have birds with clipped wings!:confused:

    I know a lady who keeps many exotics but she has never bought one herself. All of them have come from people who bought them and cannot look after them. Fair play to her but even she says if all of her pets died, she would never go out and fund the trade.
    People have been keeping dogs and cats for thousands of years and we have domesticated them at this stage. Just thought I'd throw that in there before someone accuses me of being a hypocrite for keeping dogs and cats!


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    #11
    Rory123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 601 ✭✭✭Rory123


    Lauragoesmad wrote: »
    I actually don't really agree with keeping a lot of animals. Large lizards, snakes, birds and espeicially people who have birds with clipped wings!:confused:
    I personally would not keep a medium or large bird indoors without partially clipped wings


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    #12
    Lauragoesmad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Lauragoesmad


    I just don't see the point in keeping a bird that can't fly. Its like having a fish that can't swim.:D


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    #13
    Rory123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 601 ✭✭✭Rory123


    Rory123 wrote: »
    I personally would not keep a medium or large bird indoors without partially clipped wings

    parrots mostly climb, they don't really do all that much flying apart from for biggish distances. My bird can fly across the room. He however cannot wait for a door to open, take flight and end up 60 feet up a tree being attacked by a murder of crows
    A fish can only get around by swimming.

    Now if I clipped the wings and amputated his legs and beak that would be like having a fish that could not swim. :D


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    #14
    bionic.laura
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭bionic.laura


    But I also think some people should not be allowed to keep as much as a goldfish!
    I think this is very true.

    I was in a pet shop one day when a man was talking to his friends said he wanted an african grey parrot cos it looked cool, he said he'd keep it in a cage in the corner. I didn't get the impression he wanted to interact with it at all. He just wanted it for the status, he also mentioned he'd look cool cos they were so expensive.
    I think it's bad that you can get birds that are that intelligent on a whim. I think it would be the same for primates and other exotics.

    A parrot is a massive amount of work and they require a lot of care as do lizards etc. I think many people just jump in to getting them and ignore the advice they are given or don't even bother to get advice. Then again there are lots of people out there who do put the time and effort in.

    I'm not a fan of regulations and laws in general so I don't know how to square that with protecting these animals from owners who don't know what they are doing.


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    #15
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    We are only in Ireland a few years; Canada has more rules etc than here, which would not be difficult:)

    So please excuse if any of this is inaccurate.

    Thank you.

    What is the immediate concern, reading around and on the marmoset thread, is that literally anyone can decide to buy a small monkey and can access one easily?

    That there are no checks; no licence needed, and as we see here, people do not take or seek advice from experienced folk.

    Is that a fair appraisal?

    We have been shocked mor times than we can say by abuse of more ordinary animals here in Ireland. Dogs, cats, farm livestock. Lost count years ago of the number we have personally rescued, reported etc etc etc. We work alongside rescue groups.

    And we have 2 dogs, 2 cats all rescued and with the most horrific stories.

    The cats were rescued from an appalling spca shelter.

    Many of the smaller independent animal recue groups are incomers with a great deal of experience and skill.

    When need be, we involve the Dept of Ag Vets.

    And time and again we are told by all except the Dept of Ag, that the laws go back to 1911.

    Fur farms using brutal killing methods add to the scene.

    And we wonder thus how to stop primates and exotics being bought on impulse because of the "awww" factor.

    Given that the "good guys' are so hostile to any inspections or checks.

    Because in all this it is the animals who matter.

    And I wonder also if the "good guys" here, those with the skill and experience, could work to get some legislation passed that would limit the sale of exotics?

    Or start a group to which other small rescue groups could refer when they hear of bad treatment.

    Everyone would be grateful for that.

    Maybe even simply a good web site that people could refer to?

    Just some small thoughts from here.

    Oh, btw, that Canadian chimp email address is being sorted by the SPCA there.


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    #16
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    sorella wrote: »
    And we wonder thus how to stop primates and exotics being bought on impulse because of the "awww" factor.

    Given that the "good guys' are so hostile to any inspections or checks.

    Because in all this it is the animals who matter.

    And I wonder also if the "good guys" here, those with the skill and experience, could work to get some legislation passed that would limit the sale of exotics?

    Or start a group to which other small rescue groups could refer when they hear of bad treatment.

    Everyone would be grateful for that.

    Maybe even simply a good web site that people could refer to?

    Just some small thoughts from here.

    Oh, btw, that Canadian chimp email address is being sorted by the SPCA there.


    Again I will assume the first part of your post (that I have quoted here) is aimed at me?

    I do not object to knowledgeable animal inspectors coming to see my set up & my animals - however I do & will object to the average animal welfare officer checking up on me when they do not understand what I keep. If you have never kept an exotic species how can you tell if I am a good keeper??

    As for legislation ANVIL have been trying to get some passed for years now.

    Once again the SPCA in Canada can do whatever checks they want on that email address - it is still a SCAM! There are no real chimps being held in Canada that are attached to this scam. But good luck anyway finding the bad guys.


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    #17
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    NO: it was not aimed at you or at anyone.....

    This is what turns threads bad; that we cannot simply state generalities without this assumption.

    We would not get at anyone indirectly.

    Please believe us on that.

    SPCA in Canada know their scene very, very well indeed.

    SPCA here are demoralised and understaffed. It is the small welfare groups who are working best now, and they treat the SPCA well and courteously at all times.

    Thank you! For all you are and al you do.

    Bond-007 wrote: »
    Again I will assume the first part of your post (that I have quoted here) is aimed at me?

    I do not object to knowledgeable animal inspectors coming to see my set up & my animals - however I do & will object to the average animal welfare officer checking up on me when they do not understand what I keep. If you have never kept an exotic species how can you tell if I am a good keeper??

    As for legislation ANVIL have been trying to get some passed for years now.

    Once again the SPCA in Canada can do whatever checks they want on that email address - it is still a SCAM! There are no real chimps being held in Canada that are attached to this scam. But good luck anyway finding the bad guys.


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    #18
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    When the UK introduced legislation it was welcomed by genuine keepers of "exotics". I know a guy who set up a primate rescue. The RSPCA supported his application & now they are highly respected as primate experts. It is easy to see if an animal is being well kept & in appropriate long-term conditions.

    If anyone is visiting the UK go to the Wooly Monkey Sanctuary in Looe Cornwall. This was set up over 40 years ago & does really valuable work. It is a classic example of how to keep primates.

    Here we need a system where genuine knowledgable "exotic" experts work with the authorities. But legislation is many, many, years away. The Irish electorate have no interest in animal welfare issues so the government will do nothing. This will mean that any idiot who is determined to keep a chimp or tiger will come to Ireland.

    As events in the USA have proved a chimp can be a deadly animal. History is full of people who "love" their "exotics" & are convinced that they are safe. I know a girl who's 12 ft Boa decided to give her a kiss & grabbed her face.


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    #19
    PirateShampoo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭PirateShampoo


    sorella wrote: »

    Oh, btw, that Canadian chimp email address is being sorted by the SPCA there.


    SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM, its a SCAM.

    This thread is just gonna go around in circles again.


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    #20
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    PirateShampoo wrote: »
    This thread is just gonna go around in circles again.

    +1

    This thread is not for the discussion about the chimps for sale.Its about general thoughts on keeping exotics.I promised Rory123 that I wouldnt lock the thread but it looks like its going back to the chimps again.
    So lets try and keep it on topic so that I dont have to lock it.
    Richie.


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    #21
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    If folk would read the posts as a whole and not pick on one bit it would help greatly:)
    Hellrazer wrote: »
    +1

    This thread is not for the discussion about the chimps for sale.Its about general thoughts on keeping exotics.I promised Rory123 that I wouldnt lock the thread but it looks like its going back to the chimps again.
    So lets try and keep it on topic so that I dont have to lock it.
    Richie.


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    #22
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    Amen to this; the SPCA told me that there is new legislation in the pipeline?

    Does anyone know anything more about this?

    And well done the UK.

    Also what please is ANVIL? Someone mentioned it.
    Discodog wrote: »
    When the UK introduced legislation it was welcomed by genuine keepers of "exotics". I know a guy who set up a primate rescue. The RSPCA supported his application & now they are highly respected as primate experts. It is easy to see if an animal is being well kept & in appropriate long-term conditions.

    If anyone is visiting the UK go to the Wooly Monkey Sanctuary in Looe Cornwall. This was set up over 40 years ago & does really valuable work. It is a classic example of how to keep primates.

    Here we need a system where genuine knowledgable "exotic" experts work with the authorities. But legislation is many, many, years away. The Irish electorate have no interest in animal welfare issues so the government will do nothing. This will mean that any idiot who is determined to keep a chimp or tiger will come to Ireland.

    As events in the USA have proved a chimp can be a deadly animal. History is full of people who "love" their "exotics" & are convinced that they are safe. I know a girl who's 12 ft Boa decided to give her a kiss & grabbed her face.


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    #23
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    There is no legislation coming in the short to medium term.

    http://www.anvilireland.ie/fulcrum.html?ep=5


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    #24
    Maggie.23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 154 ✭✭Maggie.23


    Thanks for the ANVIL link, it is a very informative site.
    What defines an exotic? I mean where is the line between ordinary and exotic pets? Is it to do with the exotic nature of the animal's natural environment, or the endangered status of the animal, or the level of specialist care required?


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    #25
    Rory123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 601 ✭✭✭Rory123


    Maggie.23 wrote: »
    Is it to do with the exotic nature of the animal's natural environment, or the endangered status of the animal, or the level of specialist care required?
    I'd sort of think that it is a combination of all of that stuff. Although even a dog needs a high level of specialist care!


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    #26
    Maggie.23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 154 ✭✭Maggie.23


    Thanks Rory. If the category 'exotic' hasn't been legislated then the term could cover a very broad range of animals. And I agree that all animals need special care. So I'd agree with your original statement here. The morality of keeping certain animals depends on the nature and capabilities of the owner moreso that the particular animal involved.


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    #27
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    Thank you for this reference; it has been passed on to our Mother House.

    It cheers us greatly that so much is being done.

    The SPCA reference was to farm animals I think. They spoke of outdated laws from 1911

    Ireland is so behind other countries.

    Blessings and thanks

    Bond-007 wrote: »
    There is no legislation coming in the short to medium term.

    http://www.anvilireland.ie/fulcrum.html?ep=5


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    #28
    SCI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 266 ✭✭SCI


    I agree the ROI does need to tighten up on it animals welfare laws.It's
    a bad situation when anyone can open a pet shop and sell really anything
    to anyone and doing this totally unchecked but when the DWA was in forced
    in N.Ireland all it managed to do was force the whole thing under ground.
    A silly piece of paper does make someone a competent keeper.


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    #29
    Busta Hyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Busta Hyman


    i agree that ppl should not get animals without the proper knowledge. i have 2 bearded dragons and have been reading up on these on and off for 12 years before i got them. i built the viv myself and wired it up. and tbh there are still times i feel lost when it comes to keeping them.

    but also there are issues with some animal welfare officers inspecting habitiats. there was a case brought by the rspca in england that accused a fish keeper of cruelty because the tank was dirty, when it went to court it turned out that the fishes natural habitat was in a marsh type environment and it was thrown out because the habitat the owner was recreating said environment down to sourceing some of the plantlife that lives in its natual habitiat.


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    #30
    SCI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 266 ✭✭SCI


    Busta Hyman wrote: »
    i agree that ppl should not get animals without the proper knowledge. i have 2 bearded dragons and have been reading up on these on and off for 12 years before i got them. i built the viv myself and wired it up. and tbh there are still times i feel lost when it comes to keeping them.

    but also there are issues with some animal welfare officers inspecting habitiats. there was a case brought by the rspca in england that accused a fish keeper of cruelty because the tank was dirty, when it went to court it turned out that the fishes natural habitat was in a marsh type environment and it was thrown out because the habitat the owner was recreating said environment down to sourceing some of the plantlife that lives in its natual habitiat.


    That seems to be the problem in the UK,the RSPCA and the USPCA have made it clear they don't like people keeping reptiles and exotics as pets and many people that would have the knowledge to help wouldn't touch them with a barge poll.


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    #31
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    SCI wrote: »
    That seems to be the problem in the UK,the RSPCA and the USPCA have made it clear they don't like people keeping reptiles and exotics as pets and many people that would have the knowledge to help wouldn't touch them with a barge poll.
    That is the main problem.


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