Africa Needs God...

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that anyone who says Africa needs god is either saying that the ignorant and badly educated (if at all) need religion whereas the educated and enlightened do not, or is saying that black people aren't as advanced mentally as non-blacks and couldn't possibly live life without the crutch of religion.

Or maybe they have first hand experience of Africa and the misery that continent has endured. In that case they are looking at what will positively impact people's lives rather than arguing an ideological position or scoring points in arguments.

robindch wrote: »

Can't watch it from where I am now, but from your description, it seems odd in the extreme to me that anybody would think it likely that an invisible deity would reach into the world to reverse the character of a politically-inclined mass-murderer, when at the same time, it seems rather obvious that the same man would benefit from suddenly telling everybody that he's completely reformed (thereby -- rather conveniently, it seems -- implying that he no longer needs the long arm of the law to chase him).

How many christians really do find the "divine intervention" the more plausible of the two explanations?

I remember this truly horrific case. Actually the guy was in exile (in Ghana if I remember correctly) but after his conversion returned to Liberia to testify to the Truth & Reconciliation Commission. He did this in order to contribute to the healing of a nation where so many suffered unspeakable atrocities. Liberia's Truth & Reconciliation Commission, unlike the one in South Africa, grants no immunity from prosecution - so this guy knew he was facing the death penalty by returning to Liberia. I doubt, therefore, that his conversion is any attempt to evade the 'long arm of the law' (which, in West Africa, tends not to be very long at all).

turgon wrote: »

One of the reasons Africa is such a ****hole is because past Europeans were of the opinion that Africa needed God.

I think history has pretty much debunked the theory.

No, the problem was that Europeans were of the opinion that European nations and business concerns needed Africa's resources (including African people as slaves).

I think it was Bishop Tutu who said, "When the white man came to Africa we had the land and he had the Bible. Then he asked to pray with us. After we prayed, we opened our eyes and discovered we had the Bible and the white man had the land."

The main reason why Africa is a hole is because of human greed and tribalism. Tribalism was encouraged by the colonial powers because it made adminstration easy.

I think history has pretty much debunked the theory that religion is to blame for Africa's problems.

Orizio wrote: »

Stating what 'history' does or does not think about a certain theory is a rather dubious way to argue, as, for that matter, is putting European colonisation in Africa purely down to economic matters.

At the very least colonists used religious rhetoric to great effect to legitimise thier actions in the continent, an indictment in itself, and one cannot ignore the fact that exceptionally religious human beings went to Africa in their thousands upon thousands with the expressed wish to force an alien way of life and way of thinking upon a people that asked for a change in neither. Missionaries were an essential part of the process of colonisation, attacking practices and traditions that binded these socities together and in their arrogance, attempting to replace them with a culture and religion they deemed superior. The destructive influence of Christianity in Africa during the era of colonialism is something that should not be forgotten about, or minimised.

Yes, because Africa was an idyllic place to live before the arrival of Christianity.

Orizio wrote: »

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

No, I'm not contradicting myself. I'm looking at a complex situation where many factors have been at work, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively. I'm also trying to honestly assess the role of Christianity rather than argue a simplistic ideological argument such as:
a) Christianity was wonderful because it set the poor Africans free from a miserable life of idolatry and misery. or ...
b) Christianity was horrible because it, and it alone, forced the Africans into colonial slavery.

(BTW, the thread was about whether Africa needs God today, but the historical thing has come up because turgon advanced a version of simplistic argument b.)

Your first paragraph seems to suggest that you agree with me as to Christianity being a part of the wider process of Colonialism, however in the second paragraph you seem to argue that because their lives were 'pretty crap', the coming of Christianity brought 'improvements'.

Christianity did indeed play a part in the process of colonisation, sometimes opposing it, more often complicit in it, but most often just riding into the continent on colonialism's coat tails.

You then proceed to argue, or imply, since you leave your points hanging, that because Christianity played a part in the 'independence' movement (which usually replaced white tyrants with black ones) its history on the continent is less chequered then some would assume, or that by the end Christainity played a positive part in the continent's history.

No, I'm actually arguing that the history of Christianity on the continent is more chequered than some would assume - it is neither all white or all black (no pun intended). That's why my views will upset extremists on both sides of the fence.

For many Africans the coming of Christianity brought release from slavery and misery. For others the accompanying colonialism brought more slavery and misery. The Belgian Congo is a particularly horrible case (actually it was not a colony of Belgium at all but was the personal property of the Belgian king).

In some areas Christianity played a positive part and in some places it played a negative part. There is an interesting sociological theory, championed by Lammin Sanneh, that the positive role tended to be concentrated more in areas which were influenced by Protestant rather than Catholic forms of Christianity. This is because Protestants translated the Scriptures into local languages, which in turn empowered the indigenous population and often revived previously declining national identities. This had the quite unintended effect of producing independence movements and also indigenous versions of Christianity.

Throughout Africa, millions died from wars and diseases that would never have happened or arrived in Africa if it wasn't for colonisation. These realities in themselves make your attempts to soften the onslught of colonialism because Africa was 'pretty crap' before it came rather worthless.

No, I don't think that such misery was caused by colonialism alone. The only way these things would never have happened would have been if Africa hadf remained sealed off from the rest of the world with no access to modern technology. Murderous wars, with rape and slavery routine, were already rife in Africa before any colonialist set foot on the continent. They were, however, limited by lack of access to modern weapons and modern tactics of warfare. New technology would, IMHO, have ratcheted up the death toll without any colonialism at all.

Please note that I am not attempting to justify colonialism. My main beef with colonialism is not that it was cruel (which it was) but rather twofold.
1. Colonialism raped Africa's natural wealth so that even today most of its profits flow to multinational corporations rather than to Africans themselves.
2. Colonialism encouraged tribalism for administrative purposes. For example, in Rwanda the authorities forbade Hutus to marry Tutsis, those sharpening lines of division that previously were blurred. These was the primary cause of the tribalism that caused the Rwandan genocide.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that anyone who says Africa needs god is either saying that the ignorant and badly educated (if at all) need religion whereas the educated and enlightened do not.

Yep thats pretty much it in a nutshell, just surprised you needed it confirmed