Blanket Ban on Handguns

donaghs · 19-11-2008 1:34pm #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1119/1227026417220.html
I know there's huge thread against this in the Shooting forum, but maybe it deserves some debate here.

Can anyone really justify this? I don't own a gun or shoot myself, but even I can see that legally-held guns are not a major crime issue. Crime committed by legally held guns is also more solveable.

Are there any stats to backup a blanket ban on legally-held handguns?

Any of the crime I read about, the criminals modern weaponry is smuggled into Ireland.

No-ones even mentioned any of this in the news? Whats with the silence?

If there's a worry about their availability, simply reduce their availability?

Next thing there'll be a new law brought in making it illegal to order a killing from a prison cell with a mobile phone. Being seen to do something.

jmayo · 19-11-2008 4:27pm

donaghs wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1119/1227026417220.html
I know there's huge thread against this in the Shooting forum, but maybe it deserves some debate here.

Can anyone really justify this? I don't own a gun or shoot myself, but even I can see that legally-held guns are not a major crime issue. Crime committed by legally held guns is also more solveable.

Are there any stats to backup a blanket ban on legally-held handguns?

Any of the crime I read about, the criminals modern weaponry is smuggled into Ireland.

No-ones even mentioned any of this in the news? Whats with the silence?

If there's a worry about their availability, simply reduce their availability?

Next thing there'll be a new law brought in making it illegal to order a killing from a prison cell with a mobile phone. Being seen to do something.

Typical knee jerk reaction.
Must be seen to be doing something is the motto.

If politicans think that by removing legally held handguns they will stop gangs killing people, then they are really living in cloud cuckoo land.
AFAIK up till now it was at the discretion of the local superintendent who could get a license, thus someone who may be a possible danger was highlighted and did not get a license.
Will this legislation stop some kid being given a glock to try and kill a target from a rival gang ?
I can't see the gangs seeking licenses for their guns in the first place, they don't need to steal weapons either becuase they can get even higher powered ones imported along with their drug shipments.
All this does really, is affect people who shoot for enjoyment e.g target shooters.

It will have zero affect on killings, but of course the government can say they are doing something about gun crime :rolleyes:

Of course the "all guns are eveil" brigade will be happy and will admonish anyone, particularly a politican, that raises their head above the parapet on this one.

Tazzle · 19-11-2008 4:31pm

It seems to be a very transparent attempt at creating some positive spin after getting cruicified recently in the Irish Times polls. Who's actually surprised though? When is Ireland actually going to get public leaders with some common sense?

Slav · 19-11-2008 4:32pm

donaghs wrote: »

Are there any stats to backup a blanket ban on legally-held handguns?

Not at the moment but there will be next July.

If there's a worry about their availability, simply reduce their availability?

The Minister is doing what he can. Obviously it's way too difficult to improve the situation with illegal firearms used by the gangs. On the other hand if you count all the illegal handguns that were recovered during the past few years and compare it with more then a thousand handguns that the target shooters will voluntary hand in next July the statistics would be quite impressive proving the great success of the Minister's initiatives.

Also during the same time since the pistols were started licensed again there was a huge increase in the number of licensed sniper rifles, same as the criminals use (for a long time since the seventies it was only possible to license so-called small-bore .22 calibre rifles). Revoking these licenses will be another great success in insuring the public safety but the Minister probably saved it for the desert.

Stercus Accidit · 19-11-2008 4:40pm

Legally held firearms are not used by gangland criminals.

This is a nonsense proposal and spin, any statistics would show that 99-100% of crimes commited with firearms this year are illegal firearms.
I'm leaning towards the 100% here by the way.

And the year before, and the year before...

A hunter or shooter with a licenced rifle or pistol in his safe at home as he is required to do, after being vetted by a garda superintendant is NOT a threat.
Banning all pistols prevents us entering international competions involving pistols, Ireland has precious few things it is good at sportingly at internation level.

This mention of "sniper rifles", I'd love to know what that is, because I'm guessing its a bog standard bolt action rifle fitted with a scope.
Hardly a sniper rifle, and I doubt many criminals are stealing .223 hunting rifles with visions of "enemy at the gates".

Absolute reactionary nonsense.

Wertz · 19-11-2008 5:18pm

Sorry but when was the last time there was a gangland hit carried out with a legally held firearm?

Additionally, when was the last time there was a "sniper" rifle, either legally held or otherwise, used in a gangland shooting? News links please.
[edit] Illegally held handguns and shotguns are the firearms of choice in any gang related murder.

This is akin to the government banning the sale of medically prescribed opiate-based pain relief medicine to protect children from the dangers of street heroin.
What a load of nonsense....all I've really come to expect of anything coming out of leinster house in recent times...

jmayo · 19-11-2008 5:26pm

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

This mention of "sniper rifles", I'd love to know what that is, because I'm guessing its a bog standard bolt action rifle fitted with a scope.
Hardly a sniper rifle, and I doubt many criminals are stealing .223 hunting rifles with visions of "enemy at the gates".

Absolute reactionary nonsense.

maybe he is thinking of a deer rifle with a scope ?
Didn't know any of the gangland hits were using sniper long shots.
From reading reports are they not all up close and use either highpowered handguns or machine pistol SMG types ?
Can't see many assasins using a single shot .22 target pistol :rolleyes:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 19-11-2008 5:28pm

lads, I think we all know facts and reason have absolutely no place in government.

bring on the ban!

humanji · 19-11-2008 5:29pm

Other than sporting pistols, is there actually a valid reason to have a handgun other than "I should be able to do what I like"?

This ban is most definitely spin, but I honestly don't see why pistols are available to purchase in the first place, other than the reason of sport above.

Is there an actual reason to have them?

donaghs · 19-11-2008 5:29pm

Slav wrote: »

The Minister is doing what he can.

How? This law distracts from the main issue of murderous criminals. It's effect will be minimal.

If the government really wanted to make a difference, they could increase surveillence on these gangs, enforce existing laws and arrest them as soon as they step out of line. And the judiciary could get serious about sentencing.

Slav wrote: »

On the other hand if you count all the illegal handguns that were recovered during the past few years and compare it with more then a thousand handguns that the target shooters will voluntary hand in next July the statistics would be quite impressive proving the great success of the Minister's initiatives.

I don't follow you here. Do you mean that because huge numbers of legally-held weapons will be handed in by their law-abiding owners, the statistics can be used by the government to pretend they've achieved something worthwhile?

oscarBravo · 19-11-2008 5:37pm

humanji wrote: »

Other than sporting pistols, is there actually a valid reason to have a handgun other than "I should be able to do what I like"?

Other than sporting pistols, how many legally-held handguns are there in Ireland?

Vegeta · 19-11-2008 5:56pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Other than sporting pistols, how many legally-held handguns are there in Ireland?

There are only 2 uses I know of that handguns have been licensed for, humane dispatch of deer and target shooting. (very very few of them are for humane dispatch, only know of one person who works for the NPWS)

Hefty security measures and background checks are a prerequisite to getting a handgun license.

Gardai have admitted on several occasions that there are so few licensed firearms used in crime that getting the exact number is not worth the time spent gathering the figures. (At FCP conference and 2 dail questions over the last 2 years)

Very disappointed with the news and I don't own one personally.

Slav · 19-11-2008 6:31pm

donaghs wrote: »

It's effect will be minimal.

It depends from what perspective you look at this. Based on the Minister's statement it seems like he is of a different opinion.

I don't follow you here. Do you mean that because huge numbers of legally-held weapons will be handed in by their law-abiding owners, the statistics can be used by the government to pretend they've achieved something worthwhile?

Precisely. If you read what the Minister said yesterday then I think it's quite clear that he is very much concerned by the growing number of athletes who participate in pistol disciplines. Revoking their licenses (for the sake of our safety of course) will stop making a US out of Ireland. Brining the number of legally held handguns back to zero would definitely be seen as an achievement that the Minister could be proud of. That's what I made out of the proposal.

Slav · 19-11-2008 6:34pm

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

This mention of "sniper rifles", I'd love to know what that is

As we all know by now all the pistols (and perhaps revolvers as well) are glocks. Similarly all the rifles above 22lr in calibre, equipped with a scope and black in colour are sniper rifles. And sniper rifles are evil as well. We all have seen nasty shootings in the US done with this type of firearms. They are lethal and they do "Bang-Bang!"

Nodin · 19-11-2008 6:35pm

The usual knee jerk crap, devoid of facts, sense or proportion. My contempt is reaffirmed.

Sparks · 19-11-2008 6:35pm

Own one personally and I'm pretty angry at the media coverage of this. It's not an out-and-out blanket ban, but it's done a lot of damage to the sports out there even in the form it's in.
It's absolutely daft. Deputy Deasy comes out and makes incredible allegations to the media, and they cover it to the hilt as though it was gospel. Mitchell follows, same story. The shooting community writes in and calls in to point out that there are serious factual inaccuracies in the stories being run, and are ignored (except, oddly, by the politicians - Kenny calls Deasy and Mitchell in on the carpet over their statements, tells them to go to a pistol range to learn something, then agrees to meet with the shooting bodies later this week, and confirms that Deasy isn't relaying Fine Gael policy on this).
The whole thing is a media-generated farce from start to finish.

(Fair's fair though, the Examiner did spend most of today interviewing actual shooters about this and talking to the various bodies involved. But they're the only paper that's done so. The Times has had information thrown at it by shooting bodies for the last fortnight to no avail, and RTE, well, pffft.)

Wertz · 19-11-2008 6:42pm

Slav wrote: »

It depends from what perspective you look at this. Based on the Minister's statement it seems like he is of a different opinion.

Don't forget this is the same minister who presided over the change in off license opening hours in an effort to curb binge drinking.

Slav wrote: »

Revoking their licenses (for the sake of our safety of course) will stop making a US out of Ireland.

Qué? Last time I noticed, you couldn't just walk into Tesco and buy a firearm. Given our past history as a nation, I don't think that that would ever become the norm irregardless of whether some short sighted minister tries to niip it in the bud or not...

Slav wrote: »

Brining the number of legally held handguns back to zero would definitely be seen as an achievement that the Minister could be proud of. That's what I made out of the proposal.

An achievement? How so, since as stated above, legally held handguns are NOT being used to settle disputes between drug gangs?

You've also neglected to link us to a news story where a "sniper" rifle was used in a gang murder in Irealand...

Slav · 19-11-2008 7:01pm

Wertz wrote: »

Qué? Last time I noticed, you couldn't just walk into Tesco and buy a firearm.

Well, the Minister made it clear. In could be as many as 4000 legally held full-bore, small-bore, air, humane dispatch and even worse starting pistols licensed in Ireland in the near future. Isn't that scary?

An achievement? How so,

Sorry, I don't know. I just read the Minister. Maybe someone at info@justice.ie knows the answer?..

You've also neglected to link us to a news story where a "sniper" rifle was used in a gang murder in Irealand...

Sorry, cannot help here either. But my gut felling that the Minister won't stop here so the full-bore shooting disciplines and deer hunting are next.

Sparks · 19-11-2008 7:12pm

Slav wrote: »

Well, the Minister made it clear. In could be as many as 4000 legally held full-bore, small-bore, air, humane dispatch and even worse starting pistols licensed in Ireland in the near future. Isn't that scary?

I'd dispute the 4000 figure. In 1972, all pistols were effectively banned, so we went from 1500 licenced to 0. In 2004, they came back, so we've gone from 0 to 1800. However, our population has in the meantime gone from 2.77 million to 4 million. So, per capita, we now have 20% less pistols than we had in '71.
We all figured that the numbers were topping out now that the 1500 had been reclaimed from garda storage and the few new ones had been bought.
Maybe 2000 would be a better estimate.

Lemming · 19-11-2008 7:12pm

Slav wrote: »

Well, the Minister made it clear. In could be as many as 4000 legally held full-bore, small-bore, air, humane dispatch and even worse starting pistols licensed in Ireland in the near future. Isn't that scary?

Ummm, the figure I believe is around 1700/1800 odd handguns in total. That figure includes every classification of which only a tiny, tiny percentage would be Glocks or equivalent. I seem to recall seeing a figure of either 80-something Glock licenses either here or on p.ie

So stop with the scaremongering garbage. It's so transparent as to be incredulous and insulting.

edit: Further ... either the Gardai know or do not know how many licenses they've issued, so I find statements that include "could be as many as" to be something to take with an extreme amount of salt.

jmayo · 19-11-2008 7:14pm

Sparks wrote: »

Own one personally and I'm pretty angry at the media coverage of this. It's not an out-and-out blanket ban, but it's done a lot of damage to the sports out there even in the form it's in.
It's absolutely daft. Deputy Deasy comes out and makes incredible allegations to the media, and they cover it to the hilt as though it was gospel. Mitchell follows, same story. The shooting community writes in and calls in to point out that there are serious factual inaccuracies in the stories being run, and are ignored (except, oddly, by the politicians - Kenny calls Deasy and Mitchell in on the carpet over their statements, tells them to go to a pistol range to learn something, then agrees to meet with the shooting bodies later this week, and confirms that Deasy isn't relaying Fine Gael policy on this).
The whole thing is a media-generated farce from start to finish.

Deasys is a spanner (to use a tem used by some mods round here).
If Enda shoots him in the ar** with a .22, then Deasy will be lobotimsed

Is there anything that he doesn't put his foot in ?
I guess Mitchell would have lots of shooters in her Dublin South constituency
She is the spokesperson on Arts, Sports and Tourism.
:rolleyes:
Obviously anything involving a gun is no longer sport ?

Slav wrote: »

Well, the Minister made it clear. In could be as many as 4000 legally held full-bore, small-bore, air, humane dispatch and even worse starting pistols licensed in Ireland in the near future. Isn't that scary?

Air, humane and started pistols.
Can't remember the last time either of these were used in a crime, but I bet someone will know :rolleyes:

Wertz · 19-11-2008 7:18pm

Slav wrote: »

Well, the Minister made it clear. In could be as many as 4000 legally held full-bore, small-bore, air, humane dispatch and even worse starting pistols licensed in Ireland in the near future. Isn't that scary?

What's scary about it? At least if they're licensed, then the Gardaí know where they are and who has them. Plus as already alluded to, gang murders are NOT carried out by legally held handguns.
There are probably on average 5 large kitchen knives in every home in Ireland.
There are approximately 1.6 million vehilces on Irish roads.
I say we ban knives and cars.

Slav wrote: »

Sorry, I don't know. I just read the Minister. Maybe someone at info@justice.ie knows the answer?..

I seriously doubt it. They know how to grab headlines, that's about it...

Slav wrote: »

Sorry, cannot help here either. But my gut felling that the Minister won't stop here so the full-bore shooting disciplines and deer hunting are next.

I didn't ask for help, I asked you to qualify this:

You wrote:

...again there was a huge increase in the number of licensed sniper rifles, same as the criminals use

...with a link to some news item of where criminals have used a "sniper" rifle in the commision of a gang hit, since it is the recent Limerick murders that are fueling this current knee-jerk fest.

So you agree with what is being done but can't say why you agree with it?

oscarBravo · 19-11-2008 7:57pm

Sparks wrote: »

...Kenny calls Deasy and Mitchell in on the carpet over their statements, tells them to go to a pistol range to learn something, then agrees to meet with the shooting bodies later this week, and confirms that Deasy isn't relaying Fine Gael policy on this...

And this is the man that everyone is convinced doesn't have what it takes to be Taoiseach.

mumhaabu · 19-11-2008 8:16pm

And so the dictatorship continues, Joseph Stalin began disarming the Soviet people before massacring over 30million of them. The need to arm the private militia is now greater than ever. I suggest that all owners of these guns band together and refuse point blank to hand over their weapons which are a god given right and something our state was founded on. We need to implement a right into Bunreacht na hEireann to give every citizen to right to bear arms.

If this goes ahead it will not be long before Shotguns and rifles are banned. This is a pre-emptive measure to several upcoming issues in which the Fianna Fail and Green elites are trying to consolidate power. They are soon going once again to try surrender Irish sovereignty to a European Empire and will be holding a 2nd Referendum on Lisbon. Fianna Fail are at 70% disapproval and when taxes skyrocket to well over 65% in the coming two years they will want a disarmed armed public to toe the line.

This represents a move to dictatorship and they are already trying to remove the need to hold referendums to change the constitution so they can shred it further.

People of Ireland hold onto your guns because you will need them in Future as the impending collapse of Ireland's economy and law and order.

It is the truth and we must fight to keep the weapons otherwise Fianna Fail will turn Ireland into Zimbabwe. Fianna Fail's pre cursor, the IRA (Left Wing Marxists) tried hard to throw away Ireland's sovereignty in 1922 and destroyed the economy during the 30's. The free state Army crushed the rebellion and time will see the need for a private militia to rise up and bring Fianna Fail down either through peaceful means or through the use of force.

Guns = Democracy & Peace.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Guns have ridden the world of dictators.

This Fianna Fail Government are hell-bent on wrecking Ireland and are so mis-attached from the Party it is unreal, the average FF Voter and Canvasser/Party Worker are now alienated.

Nodin · 19-11-2008 8:24pm

Slav wrote: »

Well, the Minister made it clear. In could be as many as 4000 legally held full-bore, small-bore, air, humane dispatch and even worse starting pistols licensed in Ireland in the near future. Isn't that scary?

No.

Anything else?

Sparks · 19-11-2008 8:25pm

mumhaabu wrote:

And so the dictatorship continues...

Okay, speaking as a handgun owner, what the feck are you on about?
We're sportspeople. Not political activists. We just want to take part in our sport, not have some right to keep and bear arms. Feck's sake.

Slav · 19-11-2008 8:45pm

Sparks wrote: »

I'd dispute the 4000 figure. In 1972, all pistols were effectively banned, so we went from 1500 licenced to 0. In 2004, they came back, so we've gone from 0 to 1800. However, our population has in the meantime gone from 2.77 million to 4 million. So, per capita, we now have 20% less pistols than we had in '71.
We all figured that the numbers were topping out now that the 1500 had been reclaimed from garda storage and the few new ones had been bought.
Maybe 2000 would be a better estimate.

Yes, I think you are right. Especially taking into account the number of shooters that the pistol ranges can now accommodate. Unfortunately I don't see how this figure can go any higher within the next 3 years which is not great for the sport.

Slav · 19-11-2008 8:55pm

Lemming wrote: »

Ummm, the figure I believe is around 1700/1800 odd handguns in total. That figure includes every classification of which only a tiny, tiny percentage would be Glocks or equivalent. I seem to recall seeing a figure of either 80-something Glock licenses either here or on p.ie

The figure of 4000 handguns was published on the DoJ website. The Minister tells us about a bad dream he had: "Today we have 1800 legal handguns - in three years time that number could exceed 4,000 and rising." But as soon as his "paramount concern must be the protection of the public" he decided that it's time for him to act.

Regarding the Glock, as per the media reports, that's what we should call the handguns now. Now we know that there are different type of glocks: full-bore glocks, glock revolvers, .22 ISSF glocks, humane dispatching glocks, etc, but it doesn't really matter what type of glock it is; they all are glocks and glocks are evil.

After all we used to call all vacuum cleaners "hoovers".

DublinWriter · 19-11-2008 8:59pm

mumhaabu wrote: »

Guns have ridden the world of dictators

Ironic, considering Chairman Mau's famous quote about power being delivered down the barrel of a gun.

Meanwhile back at the thread, what a great idea to inhibit criminals by taking away rights from normal decent law abiding citizens who bent over backward to comply with licensing laws.

I don't know about you, but I think most criminals enjoy a drink or two. Anyone for prohibition?

Slav · 19-11-2008 9:05pm

Wertz wrote: »

What's scary about it? At least if they're licensed, then the Gardaí know where they are and who has them.

No idea, but the figure of 4000 from his bad dream scared s**te out of the Minister.

I seriously doubt it. They know how to grab headlines, that's about it...

Not sure even about the headlines. To be honest after seeing the way they presented the Budget I have a fear that the Govt is living in some sort of a parallel reality.

...with a link to some news item of where criminals have used a "sniper" rifle in the commision of a gang hit

Did I ever say that such event ever happened in Ireland?

since it is the recent Limerick murders that are fueling this current knee-jerk fest.

Not only, the Minister mentions Dunblane as well.

So you agree with what is being done but can't say why you agree with it?

Did I say I agree with that? All I said it's quite clear where the Minister is coming from.

Slav · 19-11-2008 9:19pm

Nodin wrote: »

Anything else?

From what we have heard so far from the Minister, no, that's pretty much it.

Blanket Ban on Handguns

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