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God is not dead

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  • 04-10-2008 3:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭


    Was gonna post this in the Christianity forum but heck I think it would have a better home here: Taken from www.christianitytoday.org

    God Is Not Dead Yet
    How current philosophers argue for his existence.
    William Lane Craig

    July 3, 2008

    You might think from the recent spate of atheist best-sellers that belief in God has become intellectually indefensible for thinking people today. But a look at these books by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens, among others, quickly reveals that the so-called New Atheism lacks intellectual muscle. It is blissfully ignorant of the revolution that has taken place in Anglo-American philosophy. It reflects the scientism of a bygone generation rather than the contemporary intellectual scene.

    That generation's cultural high point came on April 8, 1966, when Time magazine carried a lead story for which the cover was completely black except for three words emblazoned in bright red letters: "Is God Dead?" The story described the "death of God" movement, then current in American theology.

    But to paraphrase Mark Twain, the news of God's demise was premature. For at the same time theologians were writing God's obituary, a new generation of young philosophers was rediscovering his vitality.

    Back in the 1940s and '50s, many philosophers believed that talk about God, since it is not verifiable by the five senses, is meaningless—actual nonsense. This verificationism finally collapsed, in part because philosophers realized that verificationism itself could not be verified! The collapse of verificationism was the most important philosophical event of the 20th century. Its downfall meant that philosophers were free once again to tackle traditional problems of philosophy that verificationism had suppressed. Accompanying this resurgence of interest in traditional philosophical questions came something altogether unanticipated: a renaissance of Christian philosophy.

    The turning point probably came in 1967, with the publication of Alvin Plantinga's God and Other Minds: A Study of the Rational Justification of Belief in God. In Plantinga's train has followed a host of Christian philosophers, writing in scholarly journals and participating in professional conferences and publishing with the finest academic presses. The face of Anglo-American philosophy has been transformed as a result. Atheism, though perhaps still the dominant viewpoint at the American university, is a philosophy in retreat.

    In a recent article, University of Western Michigan philosopher Quentin Smith laments what he calls "the desecularization of academia that evolved in philosophy departments since the late 1960s." He complains about naturalists' passivity in the face of the wave of "intelligent and talented theists entering academia today." Smith concludes, "God is not 'dead' in academia; he returned to life in the late 1960s and is now alive and well in his last academic stronghold, philosophy departments."

    The renaissance of Christian philosophy has been accompanied by a resurgence of interest in natural theology, that branch of theology that seeks to prove God's existence apart from divine revelation. The goal of natural theology is to justify a broadly theistic worldview, one that is common among Christians, Jews, Muslims, and deists. While few would call them compelling proofs, all of the traditional arguments for God's existence, not to mention some creative new arguments, find articulate defenders today.

    The Arguments

    First, let's take a quick tour of some current arguments of natural theology. We'll look at them in their condensed form. This has the advantage of making the logic of the arguments very clear. The bare bones of the arguments can then be fleshed out with further discussion. A second crucial question—what good is rational argument in our supposedly postmodern age?—will be dealt with in the next section.

    The cosmological argument. Versions of this argument are defended by Alexander Pruss, Timothy O'Connor, Stephen Davis, Robert Koons, and Richard Swinburne, among others. A simple formulation of this argument is:

    1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
    2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
    3. The universe exists.
    4. Therefore, the explanation of the universe's existence is God.

    This argument is logically valid, so the only question is the truth of the premises. Premise (3) is undeniable for any sincere seeker of truth, so the question comes down to (1) and (2).

    Premise (1) seems quite plausible. Imagine that you're walking through the woods and come upon a translucent ball lying on the forest floor. You would find quite bizarre the claim that the ball just exists inexplicably. And increasing the size of the ball, even until it becomes co-extensive with the cosmos, would do nothing to eliminate the need for an explanation of its existence.

    Premise (2) might at first appear controversial, but it is in fact synonymous with the usual atheist claim that if God does not exist, then the universe has no explanation of its existence. Besides, (2) is quite plausible in its own right. For an external cause of the universe must be beyond space and time and therefore cannot be physical or material. Now there are only two kinds of things that fit that description: either abstract objects, like numbers, or else an intelligent mind. But abstract objects are causally impotent. The number 7, for example, can't cause anything. Therefore, it follows that the explanation of the universe is an external, transcendent, personal mind that created the universe—which is what most people have traditionally meant by "God."

    The kalam cosmological argument. This version of the argument has a rich Islamic heritage. Stuart Hackett, David Oderberg, Mark Nowacki, and I have defended the kalam argument. Its formulation is simple:

    1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    2. The universe began to exist.
    3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

    Premise (1) certainly seems more plausibly true than its denial. The idea that things can pop into being without a cause is worse than magic. Nonetheless, it's remarkable how many nontheists, under the force of the evidence for premise (2), have denied (1) rather than acquiesce in the argument's conclusion.

    Atheists have traditionally denied (2) in favor of an eternal universe. But there are good reasons, both philosophical and scientific, to doubt that the universe had no beginning. Philosophically, the idea of an infinite past seems absurd. If the universe never had a beginning, then the number of past events in the history of the universe is infinite. Not only is this a very paradoxical idea, but it also raises the problem: How could the present event ever arrive if an infinite number of prior events had to elapse first?

    Moreover, a remarkable series of discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics over the last century has breathed new life into the kalam argument. We now have fairly strong evidence that the universe is not eternal in the past, but had an absolute beginning about 13.7 billion years ago in a cataclysmic event known as the Big Bang.

    The Big Bang is so amazing because it represents the origin of the universe from literally nothing. For all matter and energy, even physical space and time themselves, came into being at the Big Bang. While some cosmologists have tried to craft alternative theories aimed at avoiding this absolute beginning, none of these theories have commended themselves to the scientific community.

    In fact, in 2003 cosmologists Arvind Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin were able to prove that any universe that is, on average, in a state of cosmic expansion cannot be eternal in the past but must have had an absolute beginning. According to Vilenkin, "Cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning." It follows then that there must be a transcendent cause that brought the universe into being, a cause that, as we have seen, is plausibly timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and personal.

    The teleological argument. The old design argument remains as robust today as ever, defended in various forms by Robin Collins, John Leslie, Paul Davies, William Dembski, Michael Denton, and others. Advocates of the Intelligent Design movement have continued the tradition of finding examples of design in biological systems. But the cutting edge of the discussion focuses on the recently discovered, remarkable fine-tuning of the cosmos for life. This finetuning is of two sorts. First, when the laws of nature are expressed as mathematical equations, they contain certain constants, such as the gravitational constant. The mathematical values of these constants are not determined by the laws of nature. Second, there are certain arbitrary quantities that are just part of the initial conditions of the universe—for example, the amount of entropy.

    These constants and quantities fall into an extraordinarily narrow range of life-permitting values. Were these constants and quantities to be altered by less than a hair's breadth, the life-permitting balance would be destroyed, and life would not exist.

    Accordingly, we may argue:

    1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due either to physical necessity, chance, or design.
    2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
    3. Therefore, it is due to design.

    Premise (1) simply lists the present options for explaining the fine-tuning. The key premise is therefore (2). The first alternative, physical necessity, says that the constants and quantities must have the values they do. This alternative has little to commend it. The laws of nature are consistent with a wide range of values for the constants and quantities. For example, the most promising candidate for a unified theory of physics to date, superstring theory or "M-Theory," allows a "cosmic landscape" of around 10500 different possible universes governed by the laws of nature, and only an infinitesimal proportion of these can support life.

    As for chance, contemporary theorists increasingly recognize that the odds against fine-tuning are simply insurmountable unless one is prepared to embrace the speculative hypothesis that our universe is but one member of a randomly ordered, infinite ensemble of universes (a.k.a. the multiverse). In that ensemble of worlds, every physically possible world is realized, and obviously we could observe only a world where the constants and quantities are consistent with our existence. This is where the debate rages today. Physicists such as Oxford University's Roger Penrose launch powerful arguments against any appeal to a multiverse as a way of explaining away fine-tuning.

    The moral argument. A number of ethicists, such as Robert Adams, William Alston, Mark Linville, Paul Copan, John Hare, Stephen Evans, and others have defended "divine command" theories of ethics, which support various moral arguments for God's existence. One such argument:

    1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
    2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
    3. Therefore, God exists.

    By objective values and duties, one means values and duties that are valid and binding independent of human opinion. A good many atheists and theists alike concur with premise (1). For given a naturalistic worldview, human beings are just animals, and activity that we count as murder, torture, and rape is natural and morally neutral in the animal kingdom. Moreover, if there is no one to command or prohibit certain actions, how can we have moral obligations or prohibitions?

    Premise (2) might seem more disputable, but it will probably come as a surprise to most laypeople to learn that (2) is widely accepted among philosophers. For any argument against objective morals will tend to be based on premises that are less evident than the reality of moral values themselves, as apprehended in our moral experience. Most philosophers therefore do recognize objective moral distinctions.

    Nontheists will typically counter the moral argument with a dilemma: Is something good because God wills it, or does God will something because it is good? The first alternative makes good and evil arbitrary, whereas the second makes the good independent of God. Fortunately, the dilemma is a false one. Theists have traditionally taken a third alternative: God wills something because he is good. That is to say, what Plato called "the Good" is the moral nature of God himself. God is by nature loving, kind, impartial, and so on. He is the paradigm of goodness. Therefore, the good is not independent of God.

    Moreover, God's commandments are a necessary expression of his nature. His commands to us are therefore not arbitrary but are necessary reflections of his character. This gives us an adequate foundation for the affirmation of objective moral values and duties.

    The ontological argument. Anselm's famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue:

    1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists.
    2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
    3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
    4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
    5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world.
    6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists.
    7. Therefore, God exists.

    Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God's existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God's existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it's impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn't appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, allknowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God's existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist.

    Why Bother?

    Of course, there are replies and counterreplies to all of these arguments, and no one imagines that a consensus will be reached. Indeed, after a period of passivity, there are now signs that the sleeping giant of atheism has been roused from his dogmatic slumbers and is fighting back. J. Howard Sobel and Graham Oppy have written large, scholarly books critical of the arguments of natural theology, and Cambridge University Press released its Companion to Atheism last year. Nonetheless, the very presence of the debate in academia is itself a sign of how healthy and vibrant a theistic worldview is today.

    However all this may be, some might think that the resurgence of natural theology in our time is merely so much labor lost. For don't we live in a postmodern culture in which appeals to such apologetic arguments are no longer effective? Rational arguments for the truth of theism are no longer supposed to work. Some Christians therefore advise that we should simply share our narrative and invite people to participate in it.

    This sort of thinking is guilty of a disastrous misdiagnosis of contemporary culture. The idea that we live in a postmodern culture is a myth. In fact, a postmodern culture is an impossibility; it would be utterly unlivable. People are not relativistic when it comes to matters of science, engineering, and technology; rather, they are relativistic and pluralistic in matters of religion and ethics. But, of course, that's not postmodernism; that's modernism! That's just old-line verificationism, which held that anything you can't prove with your five senses is a matter of personal taste. We live in a culture that remains deeply modernist.

    Otherwise, how do we make sense of the popularity of the New Atheism? Dawkins and his ilk are indelibly modernist and even scientistic in their approach. On the postmodernist reading of contemporary culture, their books should have fallen like water on a stone. Instead, people lap them up eagerly, convinced that religious belief is folly.

    Seen in this light, tailoring our gospel to a postmodern culture is self-defeating. By laying aside our best apologetic weapons of logic and evidence, we ensure modernism's triumph over us. If the church adopts this course of action, the consequences in the next generation will be catastrophic. Christianity will be reduced to but another voice in a cacophony of competing voices, each sharing its own narrative and none commending itself as the objective truth about reality. Meanwhile, scientific naturalism will continue to shape our culture's view of how the world really is.

    A robust natural theology may well be necessary for the gospel to be effectively heard in Western society today. In general, Western culture is deeply post-Christian. It is the product of the Enlightenment, which introduced into European culture the leaven of secularism that has by now permeated Western society. While most of the original Enlightenment thinkers were themselves theists, the majority of Western intellectuals today no longer considers theological knowledge to be possible. The person who follows the pursuit of reason unflinchingly toward its end will be atheistic or, at best, agnostic.

    Properly understanding our culture is important because the gospel is never heard in isolation. It is always heard against the background of the current cultural milieu. A person raised in a cultural milieu in which Christianity is still seen as an intellectually viable option will display an openness to the gospel. But you may as well tell the secularist to believe in fairies or leprechauns as in Jesus Christ!

    Christians who depreciate natural theology because "no one comes to faith through intellectual arguments" are therefore tragically shortsighted. For the value of natural theology extends far beyond one's immediate evangelistic contacts. It is the broader task of Christian apologetics, including natural theology, to help create and sustain a cultural milieu in which the gospel can be heard as an intellectually viable option for thinking men and women. It thereby gives people the intellectual permission to believe when their hearts are moved.

    As we progress further into the 21st century, I anticipate that natural theology will be an increasingly relevant and vital preparation for people to receive the gospel.

    William Lane Craig is research professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology. He is the coeditor with J. P. Moreland of the forthcoming Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. His website is reasonablefaith.org. All of the traditional arguments for God's existence find intelligent and articulate defenders in the contemporary philosophical scene.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Of course god is not dead. For that he would have had to exist in the first place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    This is the same old tired nonesense and its all been debunked before.


    1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
    2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
    3. The universe exists.
    4. Therefore, the explanation of the universe's existence is God.

    (1) is an assumption, we do not know that the universe has an explanation.
    (2) is a comically absurd leap of logic. Even if the universe has an explanation God is an extraordinarily complex one that defies occams razor.

    Also, if the universe has a cause then that cause is part of the universe and is subject to the same argument. Yay, infinite causal loop.
    This argument is logically valid

    No its not, its completely retarded.


    1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
    2. The universe began to exist.
    3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

    The premise is completely unfounded. Any cause would, by definition, be part of the universe.
    The teleological argument. The old design argument remains as robust today as ever -- Advocates of the Intelligent Design movement have continued the tradition of finding examples of design in biological systems.

    This deserves nothing more than a disdainful shaking of the head and derisive laughter.
    1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due either to physical necessity, chance, or design.
    2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
    3. Therefore, it is due to design.

    (2) is utterly invalid, as any universe that can be observed would by definition have such constants.
    1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
    2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
    3. Therefore, God exists.

    Objective moral values and duties do not exist.

    I must insist that anyone who opposes this position proves otherwise. Popularity is not objectivity.
    1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists.
    2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
    3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
    4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
    5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world.
    6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists.
    7. Therefore, God exists.

    It is possible that a maximally great Island exists etc.

    Perfect island, perfect hat, perfect pineapple...



    Is this really the best that millennia of God worship has to throw at us? Is there not a single pro-God argument that is based on something other than faulty a priori logic? Infinitely powerful entities with a habit of directly interfering with human life should really leave more of a trail than...well...nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Mena wrote: »
    Of course god is not dead. For that he would have had to exist in the first place.

    Well that settles it for me :D

    Joking aside though I respect your position that 'of course he's not dead, for he would have to exist in the first place' in order to die at some point, which equates to the position that if He existed in the first place then it logically follows that He still exists being eternal and all. So yeah He either never ever ever existed and thus cannot exist and therefore will not ever exist OR always did and still does exist. Tis one or t'other. The OP gives some positive arguments for the existence of God what are the positive arguments for the non existence of God? Or what are the rebuttals to the positive arguments that God exists?

    Oh and I've heard all the "He just doesn't exist just like invisible pink unicorns don't exist" arguments before, yaaaawwwnnn!!! Give us some positive ‘God doesn't exist arguments’ because such and such. We are not talking about invisible pink unicorns. Let someone who wants to disprove their existence do so, I don’t care if they do or don’t exist or if there is in fact a teapot orbiting Mars again that is not an argument to prove that God doesn’t exist, it is just an empty rebuttal to positive arguments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I believe its a more dramatic iteration of the notion that "Belief in God is dead"...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    If he does (he doesn't) exist who's god is he? Does this not make religions redundant? It was this kind of thinking that brought me happily to atheism.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Zillah wrote: »
    This is the same old tired nonesense and its all been debunked before.

    When? By whom?
    Zillah wrote: »
    (1) is an assumption, we do not know that the universe has an explanation.

    Is it possible that it might have an explanation though? And if not why not?
    Zillah wrote: »
    (2) is a comically absurd leap of logic. Even if the universe has an explanation God is an extraordinarily complex one that defies occams razor.

    What does that prove though? When they rewind the universe like a video tape back to its furthest reaches they find that the laws of physics as we understand them do not apply so why should Occam’s Razor apply?

    Zillah wrote: »
    Also, if the universe has a cause then that cause is part of the universe and is subject to the same argument. Yay, infinite causal loop.

    I'm intrigued please go on. If the universe has its beginning in a big bang which is the most accepted and attested to hypothesis in science today then why would its causal agent be subject to the same laws that govern the caused universe? I really want to know what makes you think this is the case.


    Zillah wrote: »
    No its not, its completely retarded.

    Explain why though. We know that you think it's retarded but if you were my college professor then I would have to ask you why you think that.

    Zillah wrote: »
    The premise is completely unfounded. Any cause would, by definition, be part of the universe.

    No it wouldn't. If the universe came into existence from a singularity of nothingness then the cause for its beginning cannot be part of what it caused. It is outside of space-time which also has it beginning in the big bang if we are to submit to that theory which as already stated is the most accepted and attested to in science today as to how the universe came into being.


    Zillah wrote: »
    This deserves nothing more than a disdainful shaking of the head and derisive laughter.

    Why though? I'm sure you broke down laughing but tell us why. There are former ardent atheists who now subscribe to the view that the universe was designed for life due to the life permitting attributes in the early universe. For this alone to come about by chance is in the order of magnitude more unlikely that it cannot be comprehended, forget Occam’s razor.


    Zillah wrote: »
    (2) is utterly invalid, as any universe that can be observed would by definition have such constants.

    Huh? ACCORDING TO GROWING NUMBERS OF SCIENTISTS, the laws and constants of nature are so "finely-tuned," and so many "coincidences" have occurred to allow for the possibility of life, the universe must have come into existence through intentional planning and intelligence. In fact, this "fine-tuning" is so pronounced, and the "coincidences" are so numerous, many scientists have come to espouse "The Anthropic Principle," which contends that the universe was brought into existence intentionally for the sake of producing mankind. Even those who do not accept The Anthropic Principle admit to the "fine-tuning" and conclude that the universe is "too contrived" to be a chance event. More here



    Zillah wrote: »
    Objective moral values and duties do not exist.

    I must insist that anyone who opposes this position proves otherwise. Popularity is not objectivity.

    Then by your definition they do exist, because many people including atheists believe that objective moral values do in fact exist, they just don't attribute them to have come from God. They call them evolutionary byproducts or something like that.


    Zillah wrote: »
    It is possible that a maximally great Island exists etc.

    Perfect island, perfect hat, perfect pineapple...

    That's just more empty rebuttals. To say that its also possible that a maximally great island exists is not proving that God does not exist.


    Zillah wrote: »
    Is this really the best that millennia of God worship has to throw at us?

    Hey you haven't even begun to give positives for the proof that there is no God, so until you do people are entitled to believe in Him without being adjudge as primitive for doing so. If you cannot prove its simple primitiveness by showing that there is no God then your methods are also primitive at this point.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Is there not a single pro-God argument that is based on something other than faulty a priori logic?

    I thought you liked logic? And a priori assumptions for that matter? You pre-conclude that God cannot exist without any proof whatsoever. That my friend is an a priori assumption.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Infinitely powerful entities with a habit of directly interfering with human life should really leave more of a trail than...well...nothing.

    Well what would constitute a valid trail IYO? Every molecule in the universe having the label "Made by God" stamped on it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    God is not dead, he's just sleeping..


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,573 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
    2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
    3. The universe exists.
    4. Therefore, the explanation of the universe's existence is God.

    Ah, but what about steps 5, 6 and 7?

    5. If God has an explanation for His existence, that explanation is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    6. God exists (see point 4)
    7. Therefore the explanation of God's existence is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    If he does (he doesn't) exist who's god is he? Does this not make religions redundant? It was this kind of thinking that brought me happily to atheism.

    Well yeah it sort of does unless one of them is actually right. Most far eastern religions don't believe in a God just a reality that is beyond our reality so they cannot really be called religions in the sense that they belive in a creator all powerful being called God. So what we are left with are for the most part are the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They all believe in the same God (the God Abraham) they just differ when it come to Jesus. The Jews think Jesus was a blasphemer because of the outrageous claims He made about himself. Muslim believe He was a great prophet second only to Mohamed, who did many miracles. And the Christian believe He was God incarnate in the flesh who rose from the dead, they could be all wrong. And sure even if we can prove that all religions are wrong then that still does not prove that there is no God, it just proves that all religions are wrong nothing else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Certainly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,154 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    As Zillah showed quite well the article's most basic points are easily rebuttable. Like most articles i read on this they make a leap from one fact to a conclusion (usually using poor William of Ockham's grave as a jump board).

    1. Universe exists
    2. We don't fully understand why
    3. ????
    4. God exists

    I don't know about most people but I'm perfectly happy admitting my ignorance and society's ignorance in a huge number of areas explaining our existence and the universe's. What I won't do is assume the answer is the most complex, unexplainable and unlikely one we can think of. But I guess thats because I'm intellectually arrogant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    When? By whom?

    Perhaps you have not encountered them before, but these arguments have been making the rounds for years. We've dealt with every single one of them here on this forum at one stage or another. I don't mean for that to be a rebuttal, merely pointing out that this is nothing new.
    Is it possible that it might have an explanation though? And if not why not?

    The universe is all that exists. We don't have a verb tense that transcends all concepts of energy, space and time, but if we did, I'd conjugate "exist" into that tense. Nothing can cause "the universe" as if something caused it then that thing is a thing and therefore a part of the universe, so we must explain what caused that thing if we're to answer the question of what caused the universe.

    What does that prove though? When they rewind the universe like a video tape back to its furthest reaches they find that the laws of physics as we understand them do not apply so why should Occam’s Razor apply?

    Well that's just the thing. Logic, cause and effect and other such notions may be an attribute of the universe that we live in. We don't know what the hell existed "before" the universe, what caused it, if it needs a cause, if that cause was anything special or quite mundane. We don't know, and anyone that claims they have an answer, such as "God did it" is making stuff up.
    I'm intrigued please go on. If the universe has its beginning in a big bang which is the most accepted and attested to hypothesis in science today then why would its causal agent be subject to the same laws that govern the caused universe? I really want to know what makes you think this is the case.

    Its a matter of definition. The universe is all that was, is and ever shall be. By definition one cannot be outside the universe.
    Explain why though. We know that you think it's retarded but if you were my college professor then I would have to ask you why you think that.

    In addition to what I said above, I'll explain this: There is absolutely no evidence or argument for a hypothetical universe causing agent to be anything like what human religions describe as God. If occams razor and such like do not exist then it could be anything or nothing, and if they do apply then its an absurdly irrational leap of logic to go from "Something must have caused the universe" to "An extra-universal, all seeing, all powerful, all loving super intelligence created it".

    No it wouldn't. If the universe came into existence from a singularity of nothingness then the cause for its beginning cannot be part of what it caused.

    You're not getting it. The universe is everything. Everything everything everything. If the universe has a cause then that's not the cause of the universe, just part of the universe changing other parts of the universe.

    Why though? I'm sure you broke down laughing but tell us why. There are former ardent atheists who now subscribe to the view that the universe was designed for life due to the life permitting attributes in the early universe. For this alone to come about by chance is in the order of magnitude more unlikely that it cannot be comprehended, forget Occam’s razor.

    1 - Intelligent Design is a broken hypothesis. Its been thoroughly demolished by real scientists. Only the most stubborn, irrational (or ignorant) people cling to it.

    2 - Any universe that can be perceived would have such "suspiciously" finel tuned parameters. Its like a puddle going "Wow! Who made this perfectly designed hole for me to live in!" A puddle will always have a hole that is suited to it, in the same way sentient life will always have a universe suited to it.

    The "derisive laughter" part was directed at Intelligent Design. When I say its been thoroughly debunked, I do mean thoroughly. The eye, the bacterial flagellum, the blood clotting mechanism, the immune system; they were all held up as perfect examples of intelligent design and have since been very well explained by evolutionary theory.

    Intelligent Design was an ingenius notion at first, a very clever way of looking for the hand of God...but the thing is, it showed there was no hand of God. Its faith-fuelled proponents just can't accept that.

    Huh? ACCORDING TO GROWING NUMBERS OF SCIENTISTS, the laws and constants of nature are so "finely-tuned," and so many "coincidences" have occurred to allow for the possibility of life, the universe must have come into existence through intentional planning and intelligence. In fact, this "fine-tuning" is so pronounced, and the "coincidences" are so numerous, many scientists have come to espouse "The Anthropic Principle," which contends that the universe was brought into existence intentionally for the sake of producing mankind. Even those who do not accept The Anthropic Principle admit to the "fine-tuning" and conclude that the universe is "too contrived" to be a chance event. More here

    Refer to my puddle example above. A universe that could allow for intelligent life by definition has to have such parameters.

    Then by your definition they do exist, because many people including atheists believe that objective moral values do in fact exist, they just don't attribute them to have come from God. They call them evolutionary byproducts or something like that.

    I think you misread my post. I said popularity does not equal objectivity. Morality is a result of evolution. There is no ideal, perfect, objectively correct morality in existence. We simply have behavioural biases that allowed our ancestors to function together.

    That's just more empty rebuttals. To say that its also possible that a maximally great island exists is not proving that God does not exist.

    Its an argument that shows the flaw in the logic. The "maximally great" argument can be used to "prove" the existence of an infinite number of perfect things. Its useless, it doesn't mean anything.
    Hey you haven't even begun to give positives for the proof that there is no God, so until you do people are entitled to believe in Him without being adjudge as primitive for doing so. If you cannot prove its simple primitiveness by showing that there is no God then your methods are also primitive at this point.

    Wait, I said nothing about "primitive".

    That aside, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I'm sure this has been explained to you before. There are an infinite number of things that one can claim exists, we dismiss their existence unless evidence is presented to the contrary. Vampires, fairies, God, invisible unicorns. Frankly I'm tired of explaining this so often.
    I thought you liked logic? And a priori assumptions for that matter? You pre-conclude that God cannot exist without any proof whatsoever. That my friend is an a priori assumption.

    I like good logic. I do not pre-conclude that God cannot exist, I, and the rest of humanity, operate on the initial presumption that the universe is as we can perceive it. Everyone uses this initial assumption, its just that in the case of religion otherwise rational people throw this essential principle aside.
    Well what would constitute a valid trail IYO? Every molecule in the universe having the label "Made by God" stamped on it?

    He could have done that! If he existed that is. I'm talking about the parting of the red sea, the miracles of Jesus, the supposed constant intervention through prayer...all those ways in which the faithful claim God interacts with the universe leave the exact kind of evidence as he didn't exist. I find that just a little too convenient. Don't you?

    Its just really suspicious that the amount of obviously divine manifestations in the world has decreased in perfect proportion to our ability to understand the world using science. God is on the run and he has few places left to hide. He used to be in every clap of thunder or successful child birth...now he's retreated to the non-existence before time and space. (Didn't Q do that in Star Trek?)


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Also, damn you for making such a detailed original post. Normally any one of these arguments could fill a thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    That was a well needed lol. Thanks for that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Nietzsche is dead - God


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Zillah wrote: »
    Perhaps you have not encountered them before, but these arguments have been making the rounds for years. We've dealt with every single one of them here on this forum at one stage or another. I don't mean for that to be a rebuttal, merely pointing out that this is nothing new.

    OK.


    Zillah wrote: »
    The universe is all that exists. We don't have a verb tense that transcends all concepts of energy, space and time, but if we did, I'd conjugate "exist" into that tense.

    Yes but surely if what existed before and caused what we call “the universe” then how can you call it part of the universe that it caused? It might be part of all things that do exist but that includes and is not confined to the universe that we observe. If I make a cup of tea do I become part of that cup of tea? No! If the universe came from a singularity of nothingness and was caused by nothing, then why do we have something instead of just nothing? If all space-time that ever was and is was enveloped into this singularity of nothingness and it by accident organized itself into the universe as we know it by a big bang then why doesn’t this happen all the time? Why don’t things pop into existence from nothingness all the time if that’s the case? Why only the universe? Everything in our universe that we can observe that does come into existence has a prior cause, so why not the universe? I find it harder to believe that everything that is (i.e. the universe) can come into existence from nothing and by nothing than to believe that the universe has a first cause and therefore a first causer be that God or otherwise. How can everything come from nothing and by nothing? Because that is how it happened as science is discovering more and more if God didn’t create it.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Nothing can cause "the universe" as if something caused it then that thing is a thing and therefore a part of the universe, so we must explain what caused that thing if we're to answer the question of what caused the universe.

    Well no I disagree. We don’t have to answer that question in order to know what caused the universe. If we can deduce that I made a cup of tea at 4.30pm today then we do not need to know what made me in order to deduce that it was me who in fact made that cup of tea. Same with the creator of the universe assuming there is one, all we need to know is whether the universe was made or not. We do not need to know who made it in order to find out whether it made the universe. If it can be deduced that the universe has a creator then we do not need to know what created the creator to know that.



    Zillah wrote: »
    Well that's just the thing. Logic, cause and effect and other such notions may be an attribute of the universe that we live in. We don't know what the hell existed "before" the universe, what caused it, if it needs a cause, if that cause was anything special or quite mundane. We don't know, and anyone that claims they have an answer, such as "God did it" is making stuff up.

    No that is not what is being said. What is put forth by atheists is that they absolutely don’t know what created the universe or how it was created or what was there if anything beforehand, but they absolutely know for sure that it wasn’t God. And you talk about leaps of unfounded logic. On one hand you admit that you don’t know who did it but you absolutely know for sure that it wasn’t God. And when it is proposed that the universe has too many attributes finely tune for permitting life as we know it to be mere accidental and by deduction it is postulated that what caused the universe was not part of it and therefore not bound by the laws that hold it together and similarly able to act outside those laws within and outside of the universe you poo poo it as rubbish without any foundation at all. It might well be but you don’t know that yet.


    Zillah wrote: »
    Its a matter of definition. The universe is all that was, is and ever shall be. By definition one cannot be outside the universe.

    I beg to differ. Science which you claim to embrace has given definitive proof with the most current discoveries that the universe was not eternal in the past. It had a beginning. So therefore it was not all that ever was if it had a beginning. It can only be that if it was eternal in the past but it wasn’t as science itself has shown conclusively. But you think that it doesn’t need a causer so therefore you conclude that nothing created the universe and like I said that takes more faith than belief that God it even if that is just made up.


    Zillah wrote: »
    In addition to what I said above, I'll explain this: There is absolutely no evidence or argument for a hypothetical universe causing agent to be anything like what human religions describe as God.

    You sure about that? All the Abrahamic religions believe that God created the universe from nothing. I can give you chapter and verse if you like. That places God outside the universe because He was around before it was created. Most other religions claim that their God formed the worlds from stuff that was already there so you could argue that scientific discoveries do make them void. Not the Abrahamic religions though. They’ve being saying this right from the start.
    Zillah wrote: »
    If occams razor and such like do not exist then it could be anything or nothing, and if they do apply then its an absurdly irrational leap of logic to go from "Something must have caused the universe" to "An extra-universal, all seeing, all powerful, all loving super intelligence created it".

    I disagree. Why can’t the causer assuming there is one, be all powerful, and all loving and so forth? I see no reason to believe that such a being assuming it is the creator cannot have these attributes simply because it is deduced that He is the creator. Why not?



    Zillah wrote: »
    You're not getting it.

    I know.
    Zillah wrote: »
    The universe is everything. Everything everything everything. If the universe has a cause then that's not the cause of the universe, just part of the universe changing other parts of the universe.

    Hold on. “If the universe has a cause then that is not the cause”? How so? How can the cause of the universe not be the cause of the universe?

    Zillah wrote: »
    1 - Intelligent Design is a broken hypothesis. Its been thoroughly demolished by real scientists. Only the most stubborn, irrational (or ignorant) people cling to it.

    Like me? :D
    Zillah wrote: »
    2 - Any universe that can be perceived would have such "suspiciously" finel tuned parameters. Its like a puddle going "Wow! Who made this perfectly designed hole for me to live in!" A puddle will always have a hole that is suited to it, in the same way sentient life will always have a universe suited to it.

    But if one of those finely tune life permitting parameters is off by percentages of percent then you cannot have a life permitting universe. You either have a universe that expands too quickly for stars to and therefore end up with a universe full of nothing but hydrogen or helium or something , or a universe that expands to slowly and thus squashes all the subatomic particles so that not even atoms can exist never mind anything else up the chain. It is the narrow knife edge of life permitting parameters that the universe is actually on that enables it to permit life as we know it. You may call it chance but I’m open to a creator concept until this concept is totally blown out of the water by science instead of science strengthening it all the time.
    Zillah wrote: »
    The "derisive laughter" part was directed at Intelligent Design. When I say its been thoroughly debunked, I do mean thoroughly. The eye, the bacterial flagellum, the blood clotting mechanism, the immune system; they were all held up as perfect examples of intelligent design and have since been very well explained by evolutionary theory.

    I’ve seen Ken Miller’s talk on the bacterial flagellum and I thought he explained very well that there is no need for a designer but it doesn’t prove that they’re wasn’t a designer. And Dawkin’s approach to the development of the eye was pretty poor. It is all hypothesized not proven and only tries to explain it on the basis that no designer need apply. There are many postulated hypothesis which are all based on the assumption that there is no designer. The better approach would be to say that we don’t know if there is a designer and we are not sure if this is how it happened but we are giving it you on the basis that there is no designer.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Intelligent Design was an ingenius notion at first, a very clever way of looking for the hand of God...but the thing is, it showed there was no hand of God. Its faith-fuelled proponents just can't accept that.

    Well personally I don’t need ID in order to have a faith in God. I believe Jesus rose from the dead because I fail to see any other plausible explanation to all the accepted as facts by the majority of historians including atheistic historians in the story itself. But then that’s just me researching something and coming to a conclusion based on that research. If that story is true then it is a supernatural story and cannot be explained in natural terms and should not be.



    Zillah wrote: »
    Refer to my puddle example above. A universe that could allow for intelligent life by definition has to have such parameters.

    A mixture of water, gravity and some sort of indentation in the ground caused the puddle though. What caused water and gravity?



    Zillah wrote: »
    I think you misread my post. I said popularity does not equal objectivity. Morality is a result of evolution. There is no ideal, perfect, objectively correct morality in existence. We simply have behavioural biases that allowed our ancestors to function together.

    If morality is a result of evolution then the doing of some socially unacceptable behaviors like premeditatedly and for no reason at all killing somebody cannot equate to murder any more than a lion killing a zebra equates to murder. Why? Because all we are is accidental, purposeless, meaningless DNA propagating spinoffs of an evolutionary process which accidentally evolved relatively late on the scene, on an infinitesimal and insignificant speck of dust we call planet earth floating around in a hostile meaningless and destined to die in a heat death of the universe along with everything else. Why do we call the killing of children immoral when there are no objective moral values? The fact is that is not only socially unacceptable behavior but reprehensible behavior. Why though? From where comes this morality if not from God?


    Zillah wrote: »
    Its an argument that shows the flaw in the logic. The "maximally great" argument can be used to "prove" the existence of an infinite number of perfect things. Its useless, it doesn't mean anything.

    I agree.


    Zillah wrote: »
    Wait, I said nothing about "primitive".

    I know, I said it for you. I could have used terms that are not so nice that have also been used to describe religious people but I thought I’d be kind and stick with “Primitive”.
    Zillah wrote: »
    That aside, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I'm sure this has been explained to you before. There are an infinite number of things that one can claim exists, we dismiss their existence unless evidence is presented to the contrary. Vampires, fairies, God, invisible unicorns. Frankly I'm tired of explaining this so often.

    I’m tired of reading it. What you fail to see is that what is presented to you is not accepted as adequate by you which is not our fault. You want molecules marked with “Made by God” sorry but you’re not going to get that.
    Zillah wrote: »
    I like good logic. I do not pre-conclude that God cannot exist, I, and the rest of humanity, operate on the initial presumption that the universe is as we can perceive it. Everyone uses this initial assumption, its just that in the case of religion otherwise rational people throw this essential principle aside.

    Well yes that maybe the case for some people but not so for everyone. The theory of evolution does not explain everything nor does science or religion but we are only talking about whether the universe had a causer or not, and based on the scientific evidence that we have, there is very strong indication to suggest that it had a causer. Is that causer God? Well that if we define God as being all powerful and as such able to create a universe then it might be a good start. Even a logical one.


    Zillah wrote: »
    He could have done that! If he existed that is. I'm talking about the parting of the red sea, the miracles of Jesus, the supposed constant intervention through prayer...all those ways in which the faithful claim God interacts with the universe leave the exact kind of evidence as he didn't exist. I find that just a little too convenient. Don't you?

    No. The events recorded are miraculous happenings. Did they happen? I believe so but my faith is not based on them. My faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus which if true gives credence for the other ones because He quotes from the books that have these events in them. Did Jesus rise though? Well I’ve given the reason why I believe that to be true many times. I think it is the best starting point and sure if it’s not true it can be researched and concluded as such if one takes the time to do so. Many people because they presuppose that these events cannot happen and therefore did not happen based on what they can observe in nature. Why not study the books and read the record? Many people even atheists have done this and come away convinced that there is no other plausible explanation if you take the facts as they are. Yes you can explain the facts individually but once you apply that explanation to the other facts then no explanation is more plausible than the original explanation which was that Jesus rose from the dead.
    Zillah wrote: »
    Its just really suspicious that the amount of obviously divine manifestations in the world has decreased in perfect proportion to our ability to understand the world using science. God is on the run and he has few places left to hide. He used to be in every clap of thunder or successful child birth...now he's retreated to the non-existence before time and space. (Didn't Q do that in Star Trek?)

    I disagree. If God was so on the run as you suppose then why do so many people including many atheists turn up to debates on the subject? I mean why listen to anyone who puts forth their arguments for God’s existence when discussing these things is futile and worthless because it is rock solid confirmed fact that that God does not exist? Oh and as for God retreating to the before space and time arena. I’m sorry but the Abrahmic religions at least have been saying that He was there long before Darwin was glint in his great great great great great grandfathers eye.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,573 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    We don't know what created the universe. That's enough reason for some people to assume that God created it, but for me, that just moves the goal posts. If God created it, how does he exist? Who created God? We're left with the same question as the original, only now we've added God in there too. It doesn't answer or explain anything.

    Throughout history, God(s) has been used as an explanation about things we didn't know or understand. Early man looked in the sky and saw a Sun God, because they didn't understand the concept of celestial bodies or the orbit of planets. Modern man doesn't understand the origins of the universe, so it is assumed God created it.

    For some people, there's God. For other people, there's an unknown, a question mark.

    And hey - even if a God did create the universe, what evidence would lead one to believe that He is the Christian God? Is it not equally possible that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    And hey - even if a God did create the universe, what evidence would lead one to believe that He is the Christian God? Is it not equally possible that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?
    Recalling John Hume, one could also suggest that the entity that created the universe died. Or there could have been many entities creating all at the same time, some of which survived, or gave birth to little godlets, or succumbed to a hostile takeover from the next dimension, or more variations that I can't think of just now.

    Always seems to me that in the absence of any other explanation, the conclusion that the christian god created the universe says much more about the open-mindedness of the thinker than anything specifically about the conclusion itself.

    WRT to William Lane Craig's warblings up top, most of those arguments have been around for centuries. Some of them have been around for millennia. And all of them have been very effectively disposed of too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    robindch wrote: »
    WRT to William Lane Craig's warblings up top, most of those arguments have been around for centuries. Some of them have been around for millennia. And all of them have been very effectively disposed of too.

    Well obviously they haven't been that effectively disposed of to everyone, otherwise they would not be still doing the rounds. Maybe every generation needs to be reminded of their effective disposal somehow, because as far as I’m concerned they are still valid arguments, and sure if they can be effectively disposed of then please re-dispose again for the benefit of those who have yet to hear the effective disposal for the first time. Excuse our ignorance and all that but as it is all for the betterment of mankind that their effective disposal be revisited I think it is worth the effort.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    We don't know what created the universe.


    My point exactly. So why assume that it wasn't God?
    That's enough reason for some people to assume that God created it, but for me, that just moves the goal posts.


    Nope. Nobody said anything about assuming who created the universe. Nobody really cared until the Abrahamic religions claimed that territory. Science didn’t even get involved in the debate until millennia later.
    If God created it, how does he exist? Who created God?

    To answer the question of who created the universe this is not a valid question. Once we can conclude that God did create the universe only then can we start asking that question. It is not a question that needs to be answered in order to answer the "who created the universe" question.
    We're left with the same question as the original, only now we've added God in there too. It doesn't answer or explain anything.

    Well it does if one can conclude that the universe had a creator. Which can be deduced simply from the scientific evidence alone. Everything from nothing cannot come about by nothing, it had to have a causer just like everything else in the universe cannot have a beginning without a causer.
    Throughout history, God(s) has been used as an explanation about things we didn't know or understand. Early man looked in the sky and saw a Sun God, because they didn't understand the concept of celestial bodies or the orbit of planets.

    Yes but that does not account for the Abrahamic religions. They all claim that their knowledge came by revelation form an outside source which called itself the creator of the universe. They did not invent Him like other religions did with their God. They claim that God came to them and revealed Himself to them, they do not project their understanding of things about the universe onto the universe. Only now is science verifying what they have been claiming for millennia, that the universe has a beginning and the causer of it is not part of that universe, rather is a transcendent being beyond time and space. Science is starting to agree with them.
    Modern man doesn't understand the origins of the universe, so it is assumed God created it.

    No, modern man does understand the universe very well and is only now catching up with what the Abrahanmic religions have been saying for centuries. That it had a beginning and a beginner, ok science does not admit that it necessarily had a beginier yet but its getting there, it does admit that it had a begining at least.
    For some people, there's God. For other people, there's an unknown, a question mark.

    You are right about that.
    And hey - even if a God did create the universe, what evidence would lead one to believe that He is the Christian God? Is it not equally possible that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe?

    Well you show me the evidence that a historical Spaghetti Monster ever existed, who has been worshiped as God for centuries who it is claimed rose from the dead as a historical fact for just as long, who when he was alive claimed to be the Spaghetti Monster incarnate, and who was to fulfill ancient Spaghetti Monster prophecies about himself and I'll show you Jesus. Now that is not to say that there is no spaghetti monster but no matter what you say, he hasn't had the influence on history that the Jesus of the Gospels has had.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    This is bloody pathetic.

    At least when JC posts inane drivel, it's couched in enough rhetorical and linguistic gymnastics to render you paralysed with confusion for a few seconds.

    This is just a poor troll attempt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Dave! wrote: »
    This is bloody pathetic.

    At least when JC posts inane drivel, it's couched in enough rhetorical and linguistic gymnastics

    :pac::P:D :p:p:D :P :P:P ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    My point exactly. So why assume that it wasn't God?

    Why assume it was god?
    Nope. Nobody said anything about assuming who created the universe. Nobody really cared until the Abrahamic religions claimed that territory. Science didn’t even get involved in the debate until millennia later.

    Early religion = poor attempt at science.
    To answer the question of who created the universe this is not a valid question. Once we can conclude that God did create the universe only then can we start asking that question. It is not a question that needs to be answered in order to answer the "who created the universe" question.

    Well I think thats purely opinion.
    Well it does if one can conclude that the universe had a creator. Which can be deduced simply from the scientific evidence alone. Everything from nothing cannot come about by nothing, it had to have a causer just like everything else in the universe cannot have a beginning without a causer.

    What about the causer of the causes? Does this causer have a causer?
    I'm not trying to be funny. If everything needs a cause then everything needs a cause.
    Yes but that does not account for the Abrahamic religions. They all claim that their knowledge came by revelation form an outside source which called itself the creator of the universe. They did not invent Him like other religions did with their God. They claim that God came to them and revealed Himself to them, they do not project their understanding of things about the universe onto the universe. Only now is science verifying what they have been claiming for millennia, that the universe has a beginning and the causer of it is not part of that universe, rather is a transcendent being beyond time and space. Science is starting to agree with them.

    Science is doing this?
    No, modern man does understand the universe very well and is only now catching up with what the Abrahanmic religions have been saying for centuries. That it had a beginning and a beginner, ok science does not admit that it necessarily had a beginier yet but its getting there, it does admit that it had a begining at least.

    And of course in the beginning there was god, don't worry SW science is nearly there lolz a little bit slow.

    Well you show me the evidence that a historical Spaghetti Monster ever existed, who has been worshiped as God for centuries who it is claimed rose from the dead as a historical fact for just as long, who when he was alive claimed to be the Spaghetti Monster incarnate, and who was to fulfill ancient Spaghetti Monster prophecies about himself and I'll show you Jesus. Now that is not to say that there is no spaghetti monster but no matter what you say, he hasn't had the influence on history that the Jesus of the Gospels has had.

    A long bloody history it was too :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Mena wrote: »
    :pac::P:D :p:p:D :P :P:P ?

    I think his new thing is: BEEP!!!!!!

    Can Tourette's manifest itself in textual form...?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dave! wrote: »
    Can Tourette's manifest itself in textual form...?
    Apparently so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I came close to saying I wasn't going to bother with this thread anymore but I'll give it one more shot. Please try to understand...
    Yes but surely if what existed before and caused what we call “the universe” then how can you call it part of the universe that it caused? It might be part of all things that do exist but that includes and is not confined to the universe that we observe. If I make a cup of tea do I become part of that cup of tea? No! If the universe came from a singularity of nothingness and was caused by nothing, then why do we have something instead of just nothing? If all space-time that ever was and is was enveloped into this singularity of nothingness and it by accident organized itself into the universe as we know it by a big bang then why doesn’t this happen all the time? Why don’t things pop into existence from nothingness all the time if that’s the case? Why only the universe? Everything in our universe that we can observe that does come into existence has a prior cause, so why not the universe? I find it harder to believe that everything that is (i.e. the universe) can come into existence from nothing and by nothing than to believe that the universe has a first cause and therefore a first causer be that God or otherwise. How can everything come from nothing and by nothing? Because that is how it happened as science is discovering more and more if God didn’t create it.

    Well no I disagree. We don’t have to answer that question in order to know what caused the universe. If we can deduce that I made a cup of tea at 4.30pm today then we do not need to know what made me in order to deduce that it was me who in fact made that cup of tea. Same with the creator of the universe assuming there is one, all we need to know is whether the universe was made or not. We do not need to know who made it in order to find out whether it made the universe. If it can be deduced that the universe has a creator then we do not need to know what created the creator to know that.

    Ok, a few broad points to explain where you went wrong here:

    1 - "Singularity of nothingness" is not a collection of words that means anything. This is not a thing.
    2 - All of your tea metaphors are completely useless unless you are defining tea as "All that exists, has existed or will exist". We're talking about ALL THINGS, not one small thing.
    3 - All your questions about how and why the universe popped into existence from apparently no where are valid...we don't have an answer. Super powerful intelligent entity beyond space and time is not something you have evidence for.
    4 -God is a member of the set of "something" in terms of the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Not only that, but he's an amazingly complex and baffling thing to simply be there always. That's far more puzzling than matter and energy popping into existence for no apparent reason.
    No that is not what is being said. What is put forth by atheists is that they absolutely don’t know what created the universe or how it was created or what was there if anything beforehand, but they absolutely know for sure that it wasn’t God. And you talk about leaps of unfounded logic. On one hand you admit that you don’t know who did it but you absolutely know for sure that it wasn’t God. And when it is proposed that the universe has too many attributes finely tune for permitting life as we know it to be mere accidental and by deduction it is postulated that what caused the universe was not part of it and therefore not bound by the laws that hold it together and similarly able to act outside those laws within and outside of the universe you poo poo it as rubbish without any foundation at all. It might well be but you don’t know that yet.

    1 - Atheists such as myself are not saying that we know for sure it wasn't God. I'm not in the habit of inventing answers about stuff from before time. I'm saying: We have no evidence as to what caused the big bang. Therefore any answer to the question of what caused it is made up. All of the following are baseless assumptions that a sane person should reject pending further investigation: It was an unknown super particle, God did it, it was an explosion from a previous big bang's collapse, Santa sneezed.

    2 - Yes I poo poo the extra-universal God theory as its a contradition in terms and you have no evidence. Evidence please.
    I beg to differ. Science which you claim to embrace has given definitive proof with the most current discoveries that the universe was not eternal in the past. It had a beginning. So therefore it was not all that ever was if it had a beginning. It can only be that if it was eternal in the past but it wasn’t as science itself has shown conclusively. But you think that it doesn’t need a causer so therefore you conclude that nothing created the universe and like I said that takes more faith than belief that God it even if that is just made up.

    Please read a dictionary. Universe does not mean "matter and energy that came from the big bang". It means "all that is, was and will be". This is important for when we ask the question "Why is there something rather than nothing"? God is something.

    You sure about that? All the Abrahamic religions believe that God created the universe from nothing. I can give you chapter and verse if you like. That places God outside the universe because He was around before it was created. Most other religions claim that their God formed the worlds from stuff that was already there so you could argue that scientific discoveries do make them void. Not the Abrahamic religions though. They’ve being saying this right from the start.

    Please read a dictionary. I was asking for evidence, the insane ramblings of ancient Israelites do not constitute evidence from the dawn of existence.

    I can't believe I just had to say that to another human being.
    I disagree. Why can’t the causer assuming there is one, be all powerful, and all loving and so forth? I see no reason to believe that such a being assuming it is the creator cannot have these attributes simply because it is deduced that He is the creator. Why not?

    Its baseless assumption. One baseless assumption among a hundred billion other baseless assumptions. I'm saying we do not know the answer yet, whereas you're plucking one you like out of the air and insisting its true because you think its plausible.
    Hold on. “If the universe has a cause then that is not the cause”? How so? How can the cause of the universe not be the cause of the universe?

    1 - The universe is "everything".
    2 - Any hypothetical cause is "something".
    3 - "Something" is a part of "everything".

    You must understand that the question "What caused the big bang?" is subtly different to the question "Why is there something other than nothing"?
    But if one of those finely tune life permitting parameters is off by percentages of percent then you cannot have a life permitting universe. You either have a universe that expands too quickly for stars to and therefore end up with a universe full of nothing but hydrogen or helium or something , or a universe that expands to slowly and thus squashes all the subatomic particles so that not even atoms can exist never mind anything else up the chain. It is the narrow knife edge of life permitting parameters that the universe is actually on that enables it to permit life as we know it. You may call it chance but I’m open to a creator concept until this concept is totally blown out of the water by science instead of science strengthening it all the time.

    You're still making a gigantic assumption. I've explained the reason for why its a very poor assumption but I'll try again. God help me, I'll try again. With a hypothetical:

    Lets say there's no God for now. Lets take a look at 100,000 versions of the universe. In all but, lets say, three versions it implodes or flies apart due to parameters unlike our own. By chance those three get life. That life looks around and goes "God must have fined tuned the universe to suit our existence as its far too unlikely!"

    Please tell me you understand?
    I’ve seen Ken Miller’s talk on the bacterial flagellum and I thought he explained very well that there is no need for a designer but it doesn’t prove that they’re wasn’t a designer. And Dawkin’s approach to the development of the eye was pretty poor. It is all hypothesized not proven and only tries to explain it on the basis that no designer need apply. There are many postulated hypothesis which are all based on the assumption that there is no designer. The better approach would be to say that we don’t know if there is a designer and we are not sure if this is how it happened but we are giving it you on the basis that there is no designer.

    Ok, this is how it went:

    1 - Over a couple of centuries science works out that life appears to have emerged without inteligent direction due to natural selection.
    2 - Some guy comes up with ID and says "Lets see if we can find something that would definately need to have been designed rather than developed via natural selection".
    3 - The afformentioned guy and his colleagues either fail utterly or lie.
    4 - Afformentioned guy's rich powerful Christian friends spend millions spreading those lies because it supports their beliefs.

    Thats the entire ID movement right there, no embellishment.
    A mixture of water, gravity and some sort of indentation in the ground caused the puddle though. What caused water and gravity?

    Its....its a metaphor... You have to understand that, right? This is a cruel joke you're playing on your old pal Zillah, right?
    If morality is a result of evolution then the doing of some socially unacceptable behaviors like premeditatedly and for no reason at all killing somebody cannot equate to murder any more than a lion killing a zebra equates to murder. Why? Because all we are is accidental, purposeless, meaningless DNA propagating spinoffs of an evolutionary process which accidentally evolved relatively late on the scene, on an infinitesimal and insignificant speck of dust we call planet earth floating around in a hostile meaningless and destined to die in a heat death of the universe along with everything else. Why do we call the killing of children immoral when there are no objective moral values? The fact is that is not only socially unacceptable behavior but reprehensible behavior. Why though? From where comes this morality if not from God?

    We call the killing of a child immoral because we're programmed to feel that way by evolution. I don't understand why you're having such difficulty with this concept. Is it confusing because the reaction is such a strong one? How is it fundamentally any different to other very strong reactions such as the sexual arousal we feel with a mate or the rising fury of when someone threatens those we love?
    I’m tired of reading it. What you fail to see is that what is presented to you is not accepted as adequate by you which is not our fault. You want molecules marked with “Made by God” sorry but you’re not going to get that.

    The "Made by God" thing has nothing to do with it. There are a billion billion things we can assert exist for which there is no evidence. We'd go uselessly insane if we didn't reject them until we get evidence. You do this in every case that I do it except your Abrahamic God. The fact that you find this one baseless assumption quite appealing does not change my standards for evidence.
    Well yes that maybe the case for some people but not so for everyone. The theory of evolution does not explain everything nor does science or religion but we are only talking about whether the universe had a causer or not, and based on the scientific evidence that we have, there is very strong indication to suggest that it had a causer. Is that causer God? Well that if we define God as being all powerful and as such able to create a universe then it might be a good start. Even a logical one.

    1 - There is no evidence that there was a cause to the big bang.
    2 - There is no evidence that, should such a cause exist, it was God.
    3 - Thats the only logical position.
    No. The events recorded are miraculous happenings. Did they happen? I believe so but my faith is not based on them. My faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus which if true gives credence for the other ones because He quotes from the books that have these events in them. Did Jesus rise though? Well I’ve given the reason why I believe that to be true many times. I think it is the best starting point and sure if it’s not true it can be researched and concluded as such if one takes the time to do so. Many people because they presuppose that these events cannot happen and therefore did not happen based on what they can observe in nature. Why not study the books and read the record? Many people even atheists have done this and come away convinced that there is no other plausible explanation if you take the facts as they are. Yes you can explain the facts individually but once you apply that explanation to the other facts then no explanation is more plausible than the original explanation which was that Jesus rose from the dead.

    This has nothing to do with our discussion really but I'll bite: It is not rational to conclude that a man you never met broke the laws of physics based entirely upon the testimony of unknown individuals, which was in turn recorded by unknown individuals, from a time where superstition was endemic.

    Where do you think society would be today if everyone applied your absurdly sloppy standards? You think you can put a space station in orbit using maths that an unknown individual with no education insists if valid? Why do you think they're doing things like spending billions on particle accelerators? Its because getting answers is really really hard. It takes discipline and scepticism, not child-like trust and naive assumptions.

    I disagree. If God was so on the run as you suppose then why do so many people including many atheists turn up to debates on the subject?

    Where did I say the issue was entirely concluded? I said God is on the run. He is. People used to think lightning was caused by Gods. People used to think the sun was God. The moon, animals...virtually everything in existence has been thought to be divine by someone somewhere. Now, science has driven him out of all of those things by explaining what they are. God exists only in the places we don't understand. You've had to resort to putting him at the dawn of time, one of the last places we cannot yet see with the ever illuminating eye of science.
    I’m sorry but the Abrahmic religions at least have been saying that He was there long before Darwin was glint in his great great great great great grandfathers eye.

    Er, so? Yes, your beliefs were originally conceived by ancient peoples who knew less about the universe than the average modern ten year old, whats your point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    As you can see I have gone to great lengths to respond despite my better judgement and the advice of my peers. Please make a sincere effort to understand what I'm saying before you respond or I'll not deign to return.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    My point exactly. So why assume that it wasn't God?

    Why assume it was? For all the evidence you have, it could have been Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or someone we haven't made up yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    My point exactly. So why assume that it wasn't God?

    Because we (humanity) don't know what created the universe. Therefore any person that claims to know is, well, most likely wrong/making stuff up.

    This is a point that is often missed I think when people think about religion and God. It isn't simply a question of whether or not your particular god exists. It is also a question of how realistic or plausible it is that a bunch of humans know he does or does not exists.

    It is impossible to say what did or did not create the universe (or even if such a concept is valid considering time, and thus causality, appears to be a property of the universe).

    But it is relatively easy to say that we, humanity, have no clue. Anyone claiming otherwise is undoubtedly wrong.
    Nope. Nobody said anything about assuming who created the universe. Nobody really cared until the Abrahamic religions claimed that territory.

    The Abrahamic religions were not (by a long stretch) the first religions to put forward a supernatural creation story. Heck they don't appear to be the first to put forward their supernatural creation story.
    Well it does if one can conclude that the universe had a creator. Which can be deduced simply from the scientific evidence alone.

    Please demonstrate the evidence that suggests that the universe had a "creator" (one assumes you mean an intelligence)
    Everything from nothing cannot come about by nothing

    Says who?
    , it had to have a causer just like everything else in the universe cannot have a beginning without a causer.

    How can you have a "causer" without time existing?
    Yes but that does not account for the Abrahamic religions. They all claim that their knowledge came by revelation form an outside source which called itself the creator of the universe. They did not invent Him like other religions did with their God.

    ALL religions with creation stories claim revelation from an outside source. :rolleyes:

    No religion thinks they were just inventing their own gods.

    They claim that God came to them and revealed Himself to them, they do not project their understanding of things about the universe onto the universe.
    They most certainly did. Even God himself is modeled after a rather traditional concept of a authority/father figure, a mix between a father and a king.
    Only now is science verifying what they have been claiming for millennia, that the universe has a beginning and the causer of it is not part of that universe, rather is a transcendent being beyond time and space. Science is starting to agree with them.

    They got the beginning bit right, which 50/50 really, it either did or did not have a beginning and in fact most religions have a beginning of the universe in their creation stories.

    Unfortunately they got pretty much everything else wrong. Not that impressive.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The Abrahamic religions were not (by a long stretch) the first religions to put forward a supernatural creation story. Heck they don't appear to be the first to put forward their supernatural creation story.

    I lol'd


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