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Next Generation Broadband Forum

  • 24-09-2008 2:15pm
    #1
    Eamon Ryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭


    Hi, Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, here. I am holding a consultation forum in Dublin Castle next Tuesday afternoon on my Department’s recent Next Generation Broadband Policy Paper. If anyone is interested in coming along, perhaps you’d email me at minister.ryan@dcenr.gov.ie. Spaces are limited but I'd be happy to welcome the first few respondents along. Look forward to hearing from you, Eamon


«13

Comments

  • #2
    regi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭regi


    Merged into a new thread...


  • #3
    derfen
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭derfen


    Fack me, that sounds fackin' great. shiat, I'll go.


  • #4
    damien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    To confirm, that is Eamon Ryan above. The event on Tuesday will pair off Civil Service people, telco people, consumers and other demographics into small groups where between them they share their opinions on the future of broadband etc. People should sign up to go if they can even with this short notice. It's worth having your voice heard and it will be listened to.


  • #5
    Kelter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 393 ✭✭Kelter


    Fair play to Minister Ryan, and all involved in organising this. Great stuff.

    I'm not enough of a broadband geek myself to go, but this place of full of them


  • #6
    Thomas-G
    Closed Accounts Posts: 414 ✭✭Thomas-G


    Nice to see Ministers joining us at Boards.ie! I certainly hope "the next generation" sort out the lack of broadband in western Ireland sometime soon, a 2kb/s upload rate really is tough when you're uploading 2'600 files!


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  • #7
    PogMoThoin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    Welcome to Boards Minister Ryan, hope you'll spend some time dwelling over the threads


  • #8
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    sounds like a great idea.

    I can't see it happening if he wasn't interested in hearing what people have to say.

    maybe a mod could collate a list of the questions asked in this thread to be put to the minister at the forum.


  • #9
    zonEEE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭zonEEE


    Eamon Ryan wrote: »
    Hi, Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, here. I am holding a consultation forum in Dublin Castle next Tuesday afternoon on my Department’s recent Next Generation Broadband Policy Paper. If anyone is interested in coming along, perhaps you’d email me at minister.ryan@dcenr.gov.ie. Spaces are limited but I'd be happy to welcome the first few respondents along. Look forward to hearing from you, Eamon

    Forget your nextgen how about giving broadband to us people who cant get it first.


  • #10
    DECEiFER
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭DECEiFER


    Welcome to Boards, Eamon!

    I certainly am happy to see a minister posting on a distinguished public forum, such as this.

    I can't attend, because I will be stuck in Tralee, but will there be any records or minutes published on the world wide web once the event has taken place?


  • #11
    godskitchen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    There is plenty of reading and info on these boards that will tell you how the future of BB in this country should go. Some of the guys on here know more and have better vision than any Telco worker/consultant.

    I hope they go along.........we all know who they are.


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  • #12
    jbkenn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 919 ✭✭✭jbkenn


    For those who are new around here, with high hopes, a little history lesson, and interesting reading

    Progress Report on the recommendations made in the Second Report of the Joint Committee - Provision of a national high speed broadband infrastructure
    March 2006

    AvAilable here http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Committees29thDail/CommitteeReport2006/sixth_report_CMNR.doc
    To save you the trouble of wading through it here is a summary

    List of Members of the sub-Committee on Information Communication Technology

    Deputies:
    Noel O’Flynn (FF) (Chairman)
    Denis O’Donovan (FF)
    Fiona O’Malley (PD)
    Bernard Durkan (FG)
    Tommy Broughan (Lab)
    Eamon Ryan (GP)

    Senators:
    Brendan Kenneally (FF)

    Summary of the Recommendations made in the Second Report of the Joint Committee.

    The Joint Committee’s Second Report the Joint Committee made 12 recommendations under the three over-arching themes of ‘Planning to succeed’, ‘Market Failure’ and ‘Broadband Usage’.

    Under the Theme ‘Planning to succeed’ the Joint Committee made six recommendations:
    1. Defines broadband as a service that provides at least 512kb connectivity and sets as a target 5Mps connectivity by 2006 with widely available 10Mps connectivity in 2008 being the further target.

    2. Develop a workable national broadband infrastructure plan. The current national broadband infrastructure strategy as detailed in New Connections needs to be updated, a role for the private sector needs to be mapped out and detailed implementation plans, timeframes and responsibilities need to be agreed.

    3. Appoint a single Minister of State with cross department responsibility for the rollout of a national broadband infrastructure and the development of e-Government services.

    4. Encourage closer co-operation between the Government, the telecoms industry and the end-users of broadband services.

    5. Mandate that all national, regional, county and city development plans incorporate the provision of broadband infrastructure with such plans.

    6. Ensure that all new developments are ‘future-proofed’ for broadband.

    Under the Theme ‘Market Failure’ the Joint Committee made two recommendations:
    7. Focus on “bridging of the first mile” as the first key policy issue.

    8. Establish the proposed Management Service Enterprise (MSE) to ensure all existing broadband assets are put to full use.

    Under the Theme ‘Broadband usage’ the Joint Committee made four recommendations:
    9. Introduce measures to widen the ‘reach’ of broadband technologies.

    10. Improved broadband access necessitates the skills to make use of it

    11. Encourage business to increase their usage of broadband technologies.

    12. Fully examine the potential of Government to use broadband.

    Very sensible recommendations don't you agree? no rocket science there.

    Now, for the Ministers attention, if we call these recommendations the "Mark 1" and NGN the "Mark 9", would'nt your time be better spent implenmenting the "Mark 1", and making real progress now, then at your leisure, your can spend the day wittering on about the "Mark 9" NGN's, Warp Drives and Intergalactic Space Travel.

    To those of you attending, enjoy the day, and, witness bull$hit in action

    jbkenn


  • #13
    Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭Praetorian


    I wasn't expecting this. The country is in a bad way telecommunications wise no matter what the propoganda tells you.

    LLU has failed, the regulator is gutless and seemingly toothless and is walked all over by the incumbant. We have to stop counting 3g connections as broadband.

    We need to aim high with our NGN solution. FTTH in every development with 50 or more houses. FTTC for the rest in towns and cities and the best we can do for the rest. We should open up the various fibre networks in the country, what is the point in running 3 or 4 networks side by side? Companies should tender for providing fibre to new areas and then the other companies should pay reasonable fees for access. If we put fibre everywhere it’s as future proofed as it can be. If we go for something cheaper it’ll be inadequate before it’s completed. The M50?

    We should be aiming for beyond the recession. High tech jobs is where Ireland’s future lies. Regular manufacturing jobs are going to dwindle.


  • #14
    Magzr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭Magzr


    godskitchen wrote: »
    There is plenty of reading and info on these boards that will tell you how the future of BB in this country should go. Some of the guys on here know more and have better vision than any Telco worker/consultant.

    I hope they go along.........we all know who they are.
    Yes, like the 13 year olds who post here who have such an outstanding vision of the industry as a whole.

    Not to mention all the back slapping that go one here by the Dublin Mafioso.

    Good to see a minister taking the time to post on here and try and look for some balanced input. Hopefully he will get some good views from the few adults that bother anymore to post on here but I suspect the kids will ruin it and will once again make the broadband forum a joke.


  • #15
    Eamon Ryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Eamon Ryan


    All,

    many thanks for all the replies and input above. We have now reached the maximum number of people that can be accommodated at our event on Tuesday. However, I am delighted to welcome along the people who have already responded and would encourage you all to continue contributing to the debate on this issue.

    Best regards,

    Eamon Ryan


  • #16
    clohamon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭clohamon


    Minister, while you're here you might look at the leading thread in this broadband section; it concerns 3 Mobile Broadband (Hutchinson 3 Ireland). This is the company that will win the NBS contract if Eircom does not.

    And perhaps you might also pay a courtesy call to those that don't have broadband at all but who are nonetheless looking ahead.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=60


  • #17
    kaizersoze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭kaizersoze


    With all due respect Eamon, the time for talk has long since passed. Please do something.


  • #18
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    If 3 get the NBS, we will be the laughing stock of Europe :(

    eircom are bad enough but at least they have decent service where they are available. 3's service is a joke and everyone who has it is just waiting for something better to come along.

    While we are on it, Ice Broadband are cowboys that need to be sorted too and Clearwire. Fleeching Irish Broadband customers and not providing anything much better than dial up for the money they get. Friend on Ice constantly has no service for 30 euro a month becuase he can't get anything else.

    lol, didn't believe it was Eamonn Ryan until Damien posted. I wouldn't put it past someone to pull a prank. More ministers should probably reserve their user names here in case someone decides to make them look like fools by signing up and posting nonsense. This board has basically become a consumer forum powerhouse, more powerful than any regulator so far anyway :p


  • #19
    Dellas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Dellas


    I would urge the minister to do something about rural areas and forget the cities. They have failed the people that need the service and line upgrades. Why are so many different companies offering broadband in cities and none in many rural areas??

    There should be a massive investment in upgrading rural lines and cables. Many people feel cut off and forgotten and nothing ever gets done. You have to fight and fight with Eircom who dont care about anyone.

    Next generation ??? Many are still waiting in rural areas for the first generation !!


  • #20
    nacimroc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭nacimroc


    Money has to be a factor. Speeds and conectivity are a major issue but I cannot see how line rental charges are justified.

    The most expensive line rental in Europe!!! ISP costs are competitive but are dwarfed by the criminal cost of line rental. I would prefer a reducion in line rental even this margin was given back to ISP's to provide a better service, that way at least its money well spent.

    The way in which Eircom operate in this country would not be tolerated in any other country. Why do we have to lie down like sheep and except it.

    P.S. Hands up to Minister Ryan for a pro-active approach and willing to seek out 'everyday, realistic' opinions and not just consultants who are the cause of these problems.


  • #21
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    What snake oil is this ?? :(

    You are the only shareholder in the ESB Fibre network which is an NGN, that is you Ryan the minister who owns the ESB on behalf of the state and the citizen.

    You are the only shareholder in the Bord Gáis Fibre network which is an NGN, that is you again Ryan the minister who owns Bord Gáis on behalf of the state and the citizen.

    You are about to pull a special dividend of over €500m out of those two companies in the budget next month as you know perfectly well

    You have made no effort to ringfence any monies for the extension of these NGN networks such as the empty Bord Gáis ducts along Gas pipes into Mayo and Navan and Mullingar and into other population centres not served by the ESB fibre.

    Until you show a fraction ( even 5%) of the vision and competence of Dermot Ahern who forced the ESB to use their ring in a meaningful way and which action by Dermot Ahern was the only useful leverage applied in recent years to progress market based solutions in rural Ireland then please do not come back here ever again .

    You were his shadow on the opposition benches at the time lest you forget.

    If I find out that you have not ringfenced monies specifically for NGN deployment before you rape the wallets of the ESB and BG in a fortnight I will remind you very forcefully of your myriad failings .Please make sure you abolish Comreg in the same budget and replace them with something useful clearsighted and principled . For example 2 Lollipop ladies could be taken in off the street and would do a better job than the whole lot of them and it would be cheaper.

    Nor do I care to attend your NGN round table . This endless prevarication sickens me :(

    May I quote your useless predecessor Dempsey at you. Almost a year and a half back he said ( quoted here ) , of NGN !

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055075248&highlight=ngn
    We haven’t the luxury of endless discussions, task forces or inter-departmental groups

    I said ( quoted in the same link)
    The state ALREADY has an NGN , its called ESB Fibre. All NGN really is 1000base ( Gigabit capable) fibre or 10GE which is 10 Gigabit Fibre.

    You have not the first idea of what to do with what you already have. How inutterably sad for any semblance of a 'knowledge' economy that you do not realise what you could do with what you already have and more so with a bit more of the same :(

    Gahhh!


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  • #22
    Daithi McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Daithi McGee


    Eamon Ryan wrote: »
    Hi, Eamon Ryan, Minister for Communications, here. I am holding a consultation forum in Dublin Castle next Tuesday afternoon on my Department’s recent Next Generation Broadband Policy Paper. If anyone is interested in coming along, perhaps you’d email me at minister.ryan@dcenr.gov.ie. Spaces are limited but I'd be happy to welcome the first few respondents along. Look forward to hearing from you, Eamon

    There is a very high probability that this is Bubbles.


    /Checks.

    /Re Checks.

    /Checks a third time.

    On the off chance that it is you Minister, Sir. http://wiki.boards.ie/wiki/Bubbles


  • #23
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Damien Mulley vouched for him otherwise I would agree daithi, feckin Bubbles is probably registering Dick Roche and Pat The Cope as we speak :D

    Have a Card

    bubbleidcrisis.jpg


  • #24
    Daithi McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Daithi McGee


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Damien Mulley vouched for him otherwise I would agree daithi, feckin Bubbles is probably registering Dick Roche and Pat The Cope as we speak :D

    But did Damien really? :eek:

    You are probably right though :) He seems to be ahead of the ball so to speak :D


  • #25
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Post number 4 in this very thread Daithí . Can we get back to the NGN that Ryan already has please !


  • #26
    Daithi McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Daithi McGee


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Post number 4 in this very thread Daithí . Can we get back to the NGN that Ryan already has please !


    Work away my little Sponge bobbie Friend. You ask question to answers.

    I like that.


  • #27
    Headshot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,621 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    Dellas wrote: »
    I would urge the minister to do something about rural areas and forget the cities. They have failed the people that need the service and line upgrades. Why are so many different companies offering broadband in cities and none in many rural areas??

    There should be a massive investment in upgrading rural lines and cables. Many people feel cut off and forgotten and nothing ever gets done. You have to fight and fight with Eircom who dont care about anyone.

    Next generation ??? Many are still waiting in rural areas for the first generation !!

    yap totally agree rural areas are a joke when it comes to broadband

    rural areas are being treated dreadfully

    even a petition with well over 200 names doesnt work


  • #28
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    I'll hopefully be attending, I've heard back froms someone in his office asking for some more info, but have yet to get confirmation that i'll be allowed to attend.


  • #29
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    Pm sent.


  • #30
    Daithi McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Daithi McGee


    barnicles wrote: »
    Pm sent.

    Same :)


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  • #31
    Wcool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Wcool


    So could people that go, come forward? Please? to ensure it's not a hoax?

    And if they have the guts, think about their position they are going to take?

    If Eamon is serious here, it's utterly important to debate the State of the Onion. It would be good to have a coherent view of how to handle the next 5 years, NOT to make it into a shouting match how bad the last 5 years were, we all know that...


  • #32
    damien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭damien


    I'm going. I didn't get invited to ComReg's wankfest on Wednesday though. I asked Ryan's people to sit me next to ComReg so they can explain where my invite went to. Liveblogging is also permitted at the event, should people want to. Dublin Castle has wifi and not just via insecure eircom modems. No 3g signal from 3 though.


  • #33
    Wcool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Wcool


    Well great Damien, any take on what your position will be in the discussion?

    Lot's of possible futures spring to mind:

    - the government invests, builds and exploits a national fiber network, all ISP's can buy bandwidth from it.

    - the government facilitates an industry body that jointly put down a nation wide fiber

    - the goverment tenders a contract that enables a company to do business ultra cheap in some way but enforces that the whole country is serviced. (Eircom Plus :))

    - the government gives ComReg a LOT more power and let them sort it out

    - the government does nothing, but does not favour Eircom at all

    - Eircom is stripped from it's A status somehow

    - Hybrid models: nationalised fiber up to all parts of Ireland, but the last mile is serviced by wireless (my take)

    - etc, please add if you have more ideas!


  • #34
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Wcool wrote: »
    - Hybrid models: nationalised fiber up to all parts of Ireland, but the last mile is serviced by wireless (my take)

    Mine too. A Nat Fibre Asset within 50km of everyone in phase1 and 30km in phase2 then commercial wireless . But not if the companies have their wallets raped by Ryan Lenihan and Cowen in the form of a special dividend as they will do in the budget.

    Fibre any closer is

    a) very very expensive although the UK is muttering about it , eg ftth fttc is to the door or the end of the road
    b) we have the wireless operators in most parts of Ireland by now who can pick up on this cheap large scale bandwidth .

    BUT Bord Gáis have not even had a website for 3 years now :( , look at it Here .

    Look at the gas map now , were there usable fibre in the ducts it would be great . It would be NGN too.

    pipeline_map.gif

    But not if the companies have their wallets raped by Ryan Lenihan and Cowen in the form of a special dividend as they will do in the budget.


  • #35
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Mine too. A Nat Fibre Asset within 50km of everyone in phase1 and 30km in phase2 then commercial wireless . But not if the companies have their wallets raped by Ryan Lenihan and Cowen in the form of a special dividend as they will do in the budget.

    We need fibre within 1 - 2km of most people (at least in the cities and most towns), with carrier neutral curb side boxes (FTTC) and effective LLU, allowing Eircom and other LLU operators to make use of the curb side boxes to supply VDSL2 (or DOCSIS 3) over existing phone cables and TV coax to most people.

    Anything less and we will continue to fall behind the rest of the developed world.

    Wireless is an ineffective solution that should only be used in certain rural areas to fill in the gaps with widely dispersed homes.

    I know this will cost a lot of money and there is no chance of it happening now, but it is what needs to happen.

    BTW I hope to be attending also.


  • #36
    anthony4335
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭anthony4335


    And to any one who is going maybe they can ask ,Mr Ryan, Eircom, and Comreg how and why are Eircom been allowed to use carrier lines when connecting up a house knowing that this will eliminate this house from ever getting broadband. As is the case with my house that is less than 4 years old, and now appears to be on a carrier line. Although is the newest house on the road.


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  • #37
    LKLad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭LKLad


    I think some of the language used here diminishes/eliminates the credibilty of the points being made and those making them.

    The idea that the ESB/Bord Gais will do anything in the telecoms space that requires any capital investment is a non runner - maybe back in 2000 when the business case supported such investment but not now. The 500 mill will most likely be used within those organisations to keep the increases in gas and electrical prices moderate.

    NGN will not make it to the top table in a recessionary environment - traditional economy, health and education spending will dominate.

    No fixed/mobile/cable operator will invest significantly in capital projects outside the urban centers over the next 3 years.

    Most likely NGN developments will be delayed for several years here because of the impending economic environment.


  • #38
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    LKLad wrote: »
    Most likely NGN developments will be delayed for several years here because of the impending economic environment.
    Completely disagree, in recessionary times its much much better to invest in infrastructure because its the cheapest time to do it and also infrastructure projects can kickstart the economy

    Ignoring idiots who comment "far right" because they don't even know what it means



  • #39
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    LKLad wrote: »
    The 500 mill will most likely be used within those organisations to keep the increases in gas and electrical prices moderate.

    The €500m + is to be taken off them in the budget. Therefore they can do nothing with it.

    Had they a plan to deploy NGN more widely I would reduce the special dividend by the capital cost of this plan.

    They have no such plan and nor does their sole shareholder, E Ryan. Ryan will make sure the dividend goes through as planned .

    BK. in urban areas with HIGH population density you are correct in saying c.1km but the regulator must force sub loop unbundling as well .


  • #40
    Wcool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Wcool


    LKLad wrote: »
    I think some of the language used here diminishes/eliminates the credibilty of the points being made and those making them.

    The idea that the ESB/Bord Gais will do anything in the telecoms space that requires any capital investment is a non runner - maybe back in 2000 when the business case supported such investment but not now. The 500 mill will most likely be used within those organisations to keep the increases in gas and electrical prices moderate.

    NGN will not make it to the top table in a recessionary environment - traditional economy, health and education spending will dominate.

    No fixed/mobile/cable operator will invest significantly in capital projects outside the urban centers over the next 3 years.

    Most likely NGN developments will be delayed for several years here because of the impending economic environment.

    Isn't it exactly this (market conditions, economy) why the government is such an important factor. The problem is that major player Eircom has no money and no will to invest and the other companies are too small and/or have no cheap/fair base to invest on.

    Reason more for the government to step in and actively play a part.
    Even if the government does not put money on the table, at least they could change certain laws (like making Comreg more powerful, or forcing access to exchanges). They are so much more important than when broadband started in this country (only 3-4 years ago)

    In the case above: the gov could put in place a law which makes it possible to use land owned by Irish Rail, ESB and Board Gais by other parties for broadband?


  • #41
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    threasd stuck


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  • #42
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Cabaal wrote: »
    thread stuck

    I have nothing further to add unless Eamon Ryan comes back in here and confirms that some directions to ESB / Bord Gáis are in order and what they are .

    This consultation is a low farce unless he indicates their part of the envelope .

    Eamon Ryan is the 100% shareholder in ESB and Bord Gáis who also own the bulk of the states existing long range NGN assets . Eamon Ryan OWNS the only substantial NGN in the state .

    The MANs are much of the rest of it but rely on the others for interconnectivity .

    Of further note there is Heanet which is very substantial albeit not under Eamons control and CIE .


  • #43
    Firetrap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭Firetrap


    All I want to say is that I hope that mobile internet (as in what's supplied by Vodafone/O2/3) isn't cited as a way to get broadband to rural areas. I've used 3's mobile internet which was as awful as the sticky says) and O2's better version of same but neither are proper broadband.

    Mobile internet shouldn't be included in figures for broadband. It distorts the statistics.


  • #44
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Firetrap wrote: »
    Mobile internet shouldn't be included in figures for broadband. It distorts the statistics.


    Eamon GLEEFULLY includes 3g dialup substitute subscriptions in all of his announcements on Broadband figures.

    Only in Ireland would a failure metric like 3G subscription growth be spun as a success metric by a minister of Communications. Mind you Dempsey was as bad before him.


  • #45
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    strongr wrote: »
    Forget your nextgen how about giving broadband to us people who cant get it first.

    Ye sure build a big tescos out there as well :pac:


  • #46
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    well much as this state is in crap as regards BB at the moment whats the point moaning when the point of it( this thread ) is the BB we want/need and how our money should be spend on achieving it

    read this - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Minister+Ryan+publishes+Government+plan+for+next+generation+broadband.htm

    and the consultation paper and give your views on it
    http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Communications/Regulation+and+Postal+Division/Public+Consultations/

    Yes we have our own individual crap circumstances( and im one of those burnt also,i.e. moving house to get decent BB ) but educated discussion on whats on offer would be far more productive

    Ignoring idiots who comment "far right" because they don't even know what it means



  • #47
    barnicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭barnicles


    Just as a matter of interest,

    How big is your connection that your'e posting with,Eamon???:)


  • #48
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    (I can't resist cross posting this..)

    Everyone should have to quote:
    Off peak average (3am .. 5am)
    Office hours average (9am .. 11am)
    Peak Time home Average (7pm .. 9pm)

    Specs quoted should be (for each of these times)
    • Upload speed
    • Download speed
    • Average latency and % Latency Jitter average
    • % Packet loss Upload
    • % Packet loss Download
    • Type of IP (Static, Dynamic, Shared)
    • Explicit Fair Use Policies, no "hidden" caps should be allowed. All caps and throttle schemes should be explicit and transparent. Caps should be rolling 30 days and separate for upload and download.
    It should be explicit if self hosting at all or specific services are not allowed (Torrents, Video Stream(VLC, Media Encoder, Orb, Slingbox & etc), Web, FTP, VPN, POP, SMTP, IMAP ) "servers", not clients. Or even VOIP (SIP, Skype etc which is also a kind of self hosting/Service).

    Security:
    MS dangerous ports should be blocked (137 etc) but NO other port blocking, unless totally obvious as part of "Fair Use Policy".

    Anti-Spam Engine:
    SMTP port (in or out) by default should only work with the ISP's own server (which should demand user name & password), but be unblocked to Internet by request from user.


    Packages should be rated as
    Casual Browser / Email: Can use shared IP and almost all port blocking. No self hosting. SMTP & MS port limitations as above. Explicit Traffic cap.

    Power User/Home Office/Small Business: Never a shared IP, but can be Dynamic IP. Only MS dangerous ports blocked by default. May have self hosting limitations in FUP. SMTP limitation as above. May have traffic cap.

    Corporate: No ports at all blocked by default, not even the dangerous MS port. No Fair use policy. No Traffic Cap. Static IP. No self hosting limitations. No SMTP limitation.

    It shouldn't be allowed to be called Broadband unless Latency < 70ms, Upload > 250kbps and Download > 600kbps and 100% ability to have a connection for all these at all 3 times periods.
    (Thus EDGE/HSDPA/3G fails on Latency and Connectivity, Satellite fails on Latency).

    (Latency and speed all measured to same agreed Irish server such as heanet as it can be much worse to arbitrary UK, US or Irish servers even for a very good connection)

    I'd sort all this out and true Universal Broadband Access before NGN.

    I'd use term Midband for less than Broadband
    (Satellite, HSDPA, Ripwave etc), but more than Dialup/ISDN, i.e. better than 128k up and down at peak times. 3G/HSDPA services still might not qualify as Midband in some cases unless at least EDGE performance and 100% always connect (at same OK signal location) is possible.

    Most of the Mobile services are just high speed Dialup. It's not really always on nor even if signal is good can they ensure you always connect.


  • #49
    godskitchen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    watty wrote: »
    (I can't resist cross posting this..)

    Everyone should have to quote:
    Off peak average (3am .. 5am)
    Office hours average (9am .. 11am)
    Peak Time home Average (7pm .. 9pm)

    Specs quoted should be (for each of these times)
    • Upload speed
    • Download speed
    • Average latency and % Latency Jitter average
    • % Packet loss Upload
    • % Packet loss Download
    • Type of IP (Static, Dynamic, Shared)
    • Explicit Fair Use Policies, no "hidden" caps should be allowed. All caps and throttle schemes should be explicit and transparent. Caps should be rolling 30 days and separate for upload and download.
    It should be explicit if self hosting at all or specific services are not allowed (Torrents, Video Stream(VLC, Media Encoder, Orb, Slingbox & etc), Web, FTP, VPN, POP, SMTP, IMAP ) "servers", not clients. Or even VOIP (SIP, Skype etc which is also a kind of self hosting/Service).

    Security:
    MS dangerous ports should be blocked (137 etc) but NO other port blocking, unless totally obvious as part of "Fair Use Policy".

    Anti-Spam Engine:
    SMTP port (in or out) by default should only work with the ISP's own server (which should demand user name & password), but be unblocked to Internet by request from user.


    Packages should be rated as
    Casual Browser / Email: Can use shared IP and almost all port blocking. No self hosting. SMTP & MS port limitations as above. Explicit Traffic cap.

    Power User/Home Office/Small Business: Never a shared IP, but can be Dynamic IP. Only MS dangerous ports blocked by default. May have self hosting limitations in FUP. SMTP limitation as above. May have traffic cap.

    Corporate: No ports at all blocked by default, not even the dangerous MS port. No Fair use policy. No Traffic Cap. Static IP. No self hosting limitations. No SMTP limitation.

    It shouldn't be allowed to be called Broadband unless Latency < 70ms, Upload > 250kbps and Download > 600kbps and 100% ability to have a connection for all these at all 3 times periods.
    (Thus EDGE/HSDPA/3G fails on Latency and Connectivity, Satellite fails on Latency).

    (Latency and speed all measured to same agreed Irish server such as heanet as it can be much worse to arbitrary UK, US or Irish servers even for a very good connection)

    I'd sort all this out and true Universal Broadband Access before NGN.

    I'd use term Midband for less than Broadband
    (Satellite, HSDPA, Ripwave etc), but more than Dialup/ISDN, i.e. better than 128k up and down at peak times. 3G/HSDPA services still might not qualify as Midband in some cases unless at least EDGE performance and 100% always connect (at same OK signal location) is possible.

    Most of the Mobile services are just high speed Dialup. It's not really always on nor even if signal is good can they ensure you always connect.

    Best plan I have seen, simple, easy for the public to understand (in the most part). I cant for the life of me think why they would not go down this clear road.

    I am guessing they wont want to rule out 3G or Sat as broadband as it will bring the numbers down (potential or real).

    Its clear to me that you can go the way listed above and start to build an infrastructure that is use able OR you can hide behind 3G and stick your head in the sand and block your ears when people tell you they cant preform basic tasks.

    What is outlined above is honest, its clear and to the point. If implemented correctly it will force ISP's in this country to up their game, and it will be something Ireland can truely lead Europe on.

    Have some balls and make this happen.


  • #50
    Wcool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Wcool


    While Watty's suggestion are excellent, they only address advertising and statistics, not how we improve the infrastructure. Personally, I see that as more important to discuss though I would welcome an overall change in the naming of what is Broadband.

    After all naming and advertising broadband as it should be does not make it faster/cheaper.


  • #51
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Agreed we need to improve things. But unless there are clear metrics/definitions, that by law must presented identically in the same tabular fashion for each product of each ISP we can't progress to defining NGN and next gen BB performances.

    It creates a level playing field and enables people to see the real quality or lack of it of offerings. In reality a low latency (<40ms) 512k is far better for web browsing, gaming or VOIP than an "up to" 7.6Mbps 120ms HSDPA. For torrent or video streaming users a high or no cap symmetrical low packet loss offering at 3Mbps is much better than a throttled 20Mbps connection or "up to" 7.2Mbps "Mobile" product.

    Different people need different kinds of BB products. At the moment you have to be an Industry expert to know what you are buying.

    Also if we only call true BB products, Broadband, then the real scope of the pit we need to climb out of is seen. If anything that has a flat rate cost and is faster than 56k is called Broadband irrespective of what it really is, then the magnitude of what we have to achieve is greatly under-estimated.

    Without the clear rules I outline someone could launch a new product next week and call it NGN..


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