Basic Manners on the Forum

Dragan · 28-08-2008 7:01pm #1

Hey folks,

Hopefully everyone will be able to read this objectively. One of the issues myself and the rest of the Mods have discussed about the forum is basic manners. We had a fine example of this earlier today, someone wanted photographs done for free and people flocked to shoot them down and indirectly shoot down anyone who would actually do it. Some of the posts in that thread were rude at best and this type of behaviour will no longer be tolerated.

What people seem to be forgetting at times is this is an amateur forum. Some people have incredible talent, support themselves through their work and will possibly go on to do genuinely fantastic things in the world of photography. I think however that the majority of us would be hard pressed to put ourselves into this category. If you do not want to do something for free, then so be it, but remember there are people here who can and will jump at these chances and are perfectly entitled to. I doubt there are very many people here who when starting out would not have done the same thing. Posting in a thread purely to deny someones request is pointless and smacks of arrogance.

If you see a subject being discussed that you do not like, or a post that you might disagree with then please, feel free to just not post if you are unable or unwilling to do so in a polite and helpful manner. It's a pretty futile effort to go into a post that you have no intention of offering advice or help in purely to express your opinion in a rude manner. It portrays the poster in a negative light, makes the forum look like a very unwelcoming place and is doing nothing but help to breed a sense of "elitism".

I'm sure people would disagree but it is not that long ago since I first started posting here and within a month had been told either directly or indirectly that subjects and styles I was interested in had no merit. Now, have a think back to when you first got interested in photography and your desire to learn, experiment and try out new things. We all have to go through the motions that have helped those who have gone before us.

In short, a bit more manners would not go astray from certain people at certain times and it's something that we WILL be coming down hard on in an effort to bring the board back to more friendly terms.

While this is the Photography Forum as Mods we judge people purely on posting content, not talent. So if you feel your own level of talent somehow entitles you to be rude or ill mannered to other posters then this may not be the Forum for you.

CONMIKE12 · 28-08-2008 7:16pm

I agree wholeheartedly with this.The forum has become an unwelcoming and daunting place for even us old dogs. Some of the comments in the threads I have read lately were simply shocking. Something this forum has lacked in the past, are moderators willing to pull people up on unacceptable behaviour,then penalise them accordingly and basically perform their roles as mods. then people wonder why the forum is branded an elitist one. It would be good to see that attitude change and i look forward to a more supportive environment for both beginners and advanced photographers. Conor.

Calina · 28-08-2008 7:31pm

Please, if you do have an issue with posts on this forum, we would be extremely grateful if you could report them.

What is terrific about this forum is that a lot of people often remark on how informative and helpful it is. We would like it to stay that way.

0utpost31 · 28-08-2008 7:38pm

Nice one Dragan.

The reaction to that guy who offered an interesting job to beginner photographers was insane. I, as a beginner, would jump at the opportunity!

The same type of thing happens in film production you know; young wannabe spielbergs are drafted in to do simple crap jobs for free all the time, for the benefit of their portfolio.

The fact that somebody would volunteer to photograph a band for free shows that he/she is dedicated to their hobby and not up their own arses.

kensutz · 28-08-2008 8:09pm

Dragan you're probably better to sticky this for a while so the topic doesn't get lost amongst the new posts.

mcyclist · 28-08-2008 8:27pm

I have just read the post you are refering to.
To be honest the only rude comments were from the OP in my opinion. I assume therefore that you deleted the rude replies.

Having visited other photographic fora I don't feel this one is rude. I am surprised at the request of the OP. However I think that those who replied were entitled to let the OP know that they disagrred with her using the forum to solicit free work. That surely is not the purpose of the forum.

By the way, I am not a professional photographer and would do such work for free. The rudeness of the OP would kill that possibility though.

BanzaiBk · 28-08-2008 8:41pm

While I don't know what thread you are reffering to, I whole heartedly agree with your post Dragan. I personally find this forum crazy at times, definitely agree with the arrogance point, and I hate to admit that I'm too intimidated to post my images most of the time:o

Dragan · 28-08-2008 8:42pm

@ mcyclist

The OP has also been infracted for her post and plans will be drawn up to deal with just this type of request in the future. These will detail the correct way to go about such things.

deRanged · 28-08-2008 8:55pm

This morning I was going to suggest splitting the forum off into something like amateur and pro sections, so that people could ask questions/post images 'in safety'.
I just registered on a different photo forum instead.

I think that that the original post in that thread was actually fine, but exposed an unpleasant undercurrent in this forum.

I realise that for some here photography is a way of life but for people like me it's a hobby. I have a real job and sure, amateurs can try to do it, and try to do it for less. Good luck to them if they can - I don't take offence or think I have some divine rights or that it's unethical for someone to offer a cheap(er) service.

The rudeness thing is unpleasant, but hopefully that'll be sorted. Fantastic to see mods taking decisive and timely action.

5uspect · 28-08-2008 9:04pm

I hadn't really noticed the rudeness aspect but I'm been busy lately and haven't posted much. There's a big difference between being critical and being rude, hopefully new posters won't be intimidated by the former and can ignore the latter.

whyulittle · 28-08-2008 11:35pm

While some people can be a bit blunt at times, I certainly didn't find anything 'rude' in the thread in question. I read this thread first, and was expecting a lot worse.

challengemaster · 29-08-2008 12:00am

Blunt but fair imo.

Borderfox · 29-08-2008 12:13am

Where is the thread? I wouldnt mind doing a bit of music work..

none in my portfolio so it would be TFP..

I had noticed a bit of rudeness/people being abrupt lately and good on the mods for taking it to task, we all started small and worked our way up and I have no problems giving/taking advice.

mehfesto2 · 29-08-2008 12:14am

I agree to an extent with the points made so far in this thread. Manners do cost nothing, ...but I don't think a professional service should too!

The thread in question was a strange one. I think people wanted to get the point across that you can't come in looking for somebody you don't know to do a professional service for you for free, but were goaded into making a bigger deal with it because of the OP's reaction to the posts within the thread. I mean, you wouldn't ask a doctor you don't know for medical advice for nothing!

Photoghraphy is a hobby to me, but I'm aware that many people here make a living from it. For the poster in the thread in question to rubbish professional photographers as too expensive and usless (paraphrasing here) on a photography forum without expecting a bit of a fuss, is a bit silly. Would you rush to the model forum looking for a model to work for free stating "you've had a professional model before, but it was crap you only got a few decent shots out of the time and it was FAR too expensive?" I doubt you'd get a reply that wasn't frosty.

Why should the professional photographers on the forum not be entitles to a say in a thread based on the industry in which they make their living in?!

I'm not condoning what happened, but I think it was an individual case based on particular cicumstances, attitudes and lack of understanding.

I'm pretty new here, but I don't see any rudeness on the board itself. I don't think I'd have hung around if I had! If anything I think the talent and mutual respect on show here has made a better photographer of me.

Hugh_C · 29-08-2008 12:49am

hussey · 29-08-2008 1:08am

When did the red card system appear? is this just for Photography forum or site wide.

MagicMarker · 29-08-2008 5:47am

Personally, as someone who is not even an amateur at this thing, i would also offer my services for free without thinking twice. However, if i were to ask someone for their time and services then i would of course offer something in return, be it a few beers or some Burger King after all the hard work is done:) It's just common courtesy. So it's not surprising that the OP in that thread got some people's backs up by posting ''i want something for nothing''.

Looking back over that thread, it seems the person most guilty of bad manners, was the OP herself, she certainly didn't help herself with the replies she gave.

r3nu4l · 29-08-2008 5:58am

hussey wrote: »

When did the red card system appear? is this just for Photography forum or site wide.

It's across the entire site and it appeared a good few months ago, around the time that the user profile view changed to allow you leave public messages on a users profile, in keeping with social network sites such as bebo and facebook...

magicbastarder · 29-08-2008 7:07am

i *like* the controversial threads. i'd hate for people to be shot down for expressing beliefs - photography should be a passion, which is almost by a definition irrational. i also like to think that we're all adults and will treat comments made by strangers on an internet forum with the gravity the context implies.

oeb · 29-08-2008 8:22am

Since I was the first to start piling on in the tread in question I would like to apologise to the board in general if they found my posts in any way insulting or without reason. They were not intended to be that way, and were only there to bring accross my viewpoint in what I thought was a reasonable way.

Dragan, thank you for taking the time to clarify the position of the moderators on this board.

(For the record, I am an amature photographer, only been at is seriously about a month now. However, I work as a web developer for a living, which is another industry where people constantly expect people to work for free (either because "it's a good idea", or "For your portfolio"), and it is something that I will always challange, regardless of the field in question. Threads like that will attract reactions like mine in any public discussion forum where they arise.)

Dragan · 29-08-2008 9:12am

Hugh_C wrote: »

Perhaps they belong in the Angry Bastard Forum? Sorry Dragan but my irony-meter is all a-twitch.

Hugh

Even the proposed Angry Bastard Forum has basic rules around manners and treatment of other people Hugh. Actually, even the dreaded Thunderdome has rules in place now.

Thanks to everyone for all the replies, i'm a tad busy in work at the moment but when i get the chance i will answer any of the questions that we asked.

sineadw · 29-08-2008 9:32am

First off - thanks Dragan for clarifying on the original post. I've only recently started to be paid for the type of work the OP was after, and did it for free for a long time. You get what you pay for IMHO. The attitude in the original post though - not stating terms - copyright, usage, credit, any future payment - was more than a little silly coming from someone in the industry who you'd assume really should know better (maybe some structure like that could be incorporated into requests of that kind in the future? Maybe placed in the charter so any posts could be referred back to it?). And subsequent OP replies only flamed things further. IMHO she really was by far the rudest thing about that thread. I'm really glad that side is being addressed.

As for basic manners, I'm 100% wholeheartedly in agreement. It really doesn't cost anything. I've often wondered if people who are rude here would have the balls to do it to your face. I don't think thinking twice (or once in some cases) about what way your words could be interpreted stifles discussion. And as I said in the thread about C&C shooting someone down gets no-one anywhere.

Personally I think its kind of sad that in a group of adults the mods even have to address this.

stcstc · 29-08-2008 10:00am

i think one of the big problems with internet forums in general, is that the communication is a little two dimensional. ie your not seeing the real context of whats being said. you dont see body language etc. or even the circumstances of the text

this can mean that things are often mis-interpreted dramatically. and often people coming across as abrupt or harsh, wouldnt coma across the same in a face to face discussion.

decsramble · 29-08-2008 10:15am

I have to say I've also noticed a trend to jump on people lately. If someone asks a question they get a "Look at this thread" response. I realise that it can be annoying for people to see the same topics discussed over and over again but sometimes it does get a little like "why dont you search, stop bothering us, go away and look at old posts". Thats just my opinion. Remember not everyone has been on this forum for years and not everyone finds the search function useful.

Now on the original topic. I can see it from both sides. We shouldnt be rude, if we dont like a request in a thread we should stay out of the thread and not post. Many people dont want to give away their services for free but there are many others, like myself, who will willingly give their amature abilities away for free if the T&Cs are fair and in exchange for the credit or a free pass to events. However when you spend thousands on a hobby and people show up expecting you to do work for free and expect to own the work at the end of the day it can be gauling. It is best to just ignore those people and not get into an argument on the forum. They believe they are right, you believe you are right and no amount of posts will convince them or you to change so dont even start.

There is a trend in todays world to devalue photography. It's not just individuals short on cash and looking for free wedding or potrait work, I can understand those people, its the newspapers stealing photos and printing them with no credit or payment assuming the photographer wont spot their work in print. It's companies harvesting photos from flickr, sticking them on the web and reselling them with no reference to the photographer. It's organisations who want free work but also want to own the copyright and rights to the work basically telling the photographer to be glad of the chance to use their cameras. I'd rather complain about those people making money from my free photos than the people who cant affor the work but will appreciate it.

deRanged mentioned an idea of splitting the forum into amature and pro. I (as an amature) personally think that would be a bad idea. I like the mix of talents and value the feedback people me give on threads. If we took all the good and professional people and gave them their own forum that would be a major loss to this forum. Perhaps we need a Work Wanted sub forum instead? If people want photographs taken they could post there and people who dont want to work for free could avoid that sub-forum?

gandalf · 29-08-2008 10:15am

My understanding is that the forum is not a professional forum but one covering people of all levels interested in this subject. The kind of elitism being displayed by some of the responders is not welcome and should be stopped (and will be stopped going forward).

With regard to requests for photographers to do free work. I always believe you get what you pay for. If you are looking for free then you are going to get a hit and miss result. People are entitled to get experience as well and if they are willing to carry out this service then let them. The original requester is not going to pay professional rates anyway.

Of course there needs to be some structure to these requests and we will be putting something together to cover this.

Photography is a hobby that I have taken seriously now for a year and a half and a lot of the enjoyment and growth I have experienced from it has come directly from the advice and friendship I have garnered from this forum. I want to ensure that anybody who is considering photography as a creative outlet get the same welcome that I did when I first started to post here.

Paulw · 29-08-2008 10:36am

I think, that overall, this is still a brilliant place with brilliant people. Yeah, every now and then there is a thread that goes a bit OTT and people get worked up over. IMHO that's not a bad thing. It clears the air.

The vast majority of people who post here do it as a hobby, and it's something they have a great passion for.

I also think that many people post to a forum like this because they are lazy. They don't want to make an effort to find the information themselves - google search, search the forum, etc. A lot of questions are answered, if you bother to look. I know any time I want info, the first thing I do is search. The last thing I do is post asking for info. The search function here doesn't seem to be nearly as bad as some think. It's all about how you phrase the search.

Many of the people here I've had the pleasure of meeting. The group activities are always a great way to put people to the posts, to have a laugh, to share info/tips and also share gear.

It's a great way to try someone else's lens or such.

Overall, there's a wonderful depth of knowledge and variety of styles/tastes here that keeps the place fresh and interesting. But, it's true, manners cost nothing, but also, respect is a two way street.

CabanSail · 29-08-2008 11:24am

decsramble wrote: »

I have to say I've also noticed a trend to jump on people lately. If someone asks a question they get a "Look at this thread" response. I realise that it can be annoying for people to see the same topics discussed over and over again but sometimes it does get a little like "why dont you search, stop bothering us, go away and look at old posts". Thats just my opinion. Remember not everyone has been on this forum for years and not everyone finds the search function useful.

I have only been active here a short while & do not know all the topics that have been cover. I have been pointed to past threads & found that helpful. I have now also pointed people to previous threads too. It was not an annoyance but rather an assistance so they can see all the information previously posted.

Calina · 29-08-2008 11:42am

Paulw wrote: »

I think, that overall, this is still a brilliant place with brilliant people. Yeah, every now and then there is a thread that goes a bit OTT and people get worked up over. IMHO that's not a bad thing. It clears the air.

Usually it causes the air to be full of vitriol and is extremely unhelpful to OPs who are trying to swim and are being pushed down by some of the responses they get. There is no excuse for being rude and unhelpful and it will be dealt with under the charter, under the bit that asks you not to flame other posters.

Paulw wrote: »

The vast majority of people who post here do it as a hobby, and it's something they have a great passion for.

This includes me.

Paulw wrote: »

I also think that many people post to a forum like this because they are lazy. They don't want to make an effort to find the information themselves - google search, search the forum, etc. A lot of questions are answered, if you bother to look. I know any time I want info, the first thing I do is search. The last thing I do is post asking for info. The search function here doesn't seem to be nearly as bad as some think. It's all about how you phrase the search.

It is not, however, for you to judge whether people are lazy or not, and it is not for you to pass comment on it. Ultimately, people deal with information seeking in different ways. Frankly I find the search on boards to be less than helpful - probably because of the wealth of information in it - and therefore will never criticise a new user for asking what might appear to me to be an obvious question.

As such, if you are unhappy that someone didn't use the search function or google ftw, then don't comment at all. It wastes your time and it wastes mine.

Paulw wrote: »

Many of the people here I've had the pleasure of meeting. The group activities are always a great way to put people to the posts, to have a laugh, to share info/tips and also share gear. It's a great way to try someone else's lens or such.

This is true. But it is worth remembering that if the online version of the community is intimidating - and the feedback I am getting right now is that it can be extremely so - people are less likely to come along and meet some internet monsters. As such it is important that you don't hide behind the "Ah IRL, everyone's really great".

Paulw wrote: »

Overall, there's a wonderful depth of knowledge and variety of styles/tastes here that keeps the place fresh and interesting. But, it's true, manners cost nothing, but also, respect is a two way street.

Respect can be lost too and I am not afraid to infract or ban old-timers if they overstep the mark. As such, it is far more worth everyone's while to recognise that manners cost nothing because respect once lost is hard to regain.

I have not made myself popular this week with a variety of infractions. I am stunned, in many ways that Photography has taken up much more of my moderating time than Commuting & Transport does. I concur with sineadw's view that it is sad that this even needs to be discussed.

____________________

On the subject of a split off, I am not in favour of this. I think the forum, when it is running properly pretty much as it usually does, benefits greatly from the input of some extremely talented photographers.

thebaz · 29-08-2008 12:44pm

nice one dragan -- i think we should all remember we all have different styles and likes , and more improtantly we are different people with ranging moods -- certainly i am :eek:, and on any day can be over sensitive or angry -- when i was a teen i only liked Punk and Reggae , all other music was bad -- how closed minded -- what i like today i might hate tomorrow --

having said that i think we all learn from negative feedback , but its more helpfull when done constructivly , thats how we will all learn -- if we all were perfect photographers , we would have no need to post here , and could ignore everyone elses thoughts --

bernard0368 · 29-08-2008 12:49pm

I think it is a little sad that peoples manners or lack of has to be addressed here. Good manners in society is sadly becoming a thing of the past.

It costs nothing to have good manners but it can reap lots.

I do agree that some of the OP replys were a tad inflammatory. That doesnt mean you have to lower your self to their level. They will quickly get the point by been ignored.
spliting the forum would be of no benifit to anyone and really should not be considered.

Dragan · 29-08-2008 1:01pm

With regards to splitting the forum between Pro and Amateur I would sincerely doubt that will happen and can honestly say it is something the Mods have not even concerned themselves with and probably won't. I can see it leading to nothing except the advancement of a sense of elitism on the board.

The main goal should be that people here all share a love of photography, we all have different goals and lessons to be learned and we can help each other to acheive them in a healthy and polite environment on this forum.

CraggyIslander · 29-08-2008 1:25pm

Well put Dragan and Calina.

As a regular lurker and irregular poster I too have noticed a slight change in attitude and tone of some of the threads. Thankfully they're only a minority but they're impacting the general atmosphere of the place nonetheless.

I've a personal photo challenge at the moment that will take plenty of attempts and experimenting to achieve the result I'm after. Was thinking of starting a thread ala the readinglogs to document some of bigger improvements in my results along with what I'm doing different so that others can learn from my mistakes or point out my own ones.

For fear of being shot down I'll probably end up putting it in a photo blog instead. And thats coming from someone with an aversion to anything web 2.0

Also I'd be dead against the splitting of the forum in pro / beginner, it'd only breed elitism which is what this place is NOT about.

MistressPandora · 29-08-2008 3:16pm

Awesome, so I can stop lurking and start posting here again without fear of looked down upon!

f1_jb · 29-08-2008 3:42pm

I don't post much in the forums but I do read them all the time. I have over the years posted on many forums and I kind of lost interest in posting recently.

My reason for not posting is because not just on here but in most forums there seems to be a few people who try use there positions either time on the forums or number of posts to make new comers feel stupid when they ask questions which may well have been asked a hundred times before. I have asked a few questions on here and got good advice. I also gave some people advice but mostly by PM, reason being that when I posted in the forum someone came along and told me I was wrong and preceded to argue with me, funny thing is I work for the company who manufacture the produce a technical manager and run courses every week and know what I'm talking about LOL, I just thought it was so funny at the time.

Overall most people on here are sound, a few like to stur things up from time to time and some do think there better than the rest of us but if you just take it on the chin and ignore it this can be a good place to waste an hour or two each day. I would like to post more and help people if I can but I do feel sorry when someone new is made to feel stupid after posting here. I think this thread has more to do with the forum in general rather than the thread that lead to this thread been started.

John

gandalf · 29-08-2008 3:54pm

John that thread was just the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. What you are saying there is exactly the reason we are reminding people to be civil.

Pan great to see you're still around, your captures are great and show a wonderful spark of imagination.

MistressPandora · 29-08-2008 4:07pm

gandalf wrote: »

Pan great to see you're still around, your captures are great and show a wonderful spark of imagination.

thanks Gandalf!

Phototoxin · 29-08-2008 4:53pm

where people constantly expect people to work for free (either because "it's a good idea", or "For your portfolio"

I concur.. the key word however is expect. I cannot imagine the amout of 'free' photography that I've done. It costs me nothing (technically I make money as I got into see bands etc for free and sometimes even got drinks!)

manners dont cost anything but are woth gold

Gandalf:
My understanding is that the forum is not a professional forum but one covering people of all levels interested in this subject. The kind of elitism being displayed by some of the responders is not welcome and should be stopped (and will be stopped going forward).

Amen gandalf. I've had a bad experience recently on deviant art where I commented on a 'tutorial' which was basically "you cannot do this genere of photography unless you have a leica. All other cameas are useless. Fner" Gear Elitism is the worst form of elitism. (maybe I should have pointed them to TheBaz who does EXCELLENT street/uban stuff on a d300 afaik)

I also agree about the searching ≠ laziness thing. Maybe they did search. The whole "I'm a teacher here to make you learn how to educate yourself' is great if you're in Uni/college but when you JUST WANT TO KNOW it can be frustrating to be shot down. Especially if new. I've joined other forums on other things, asked a 'basic' question (not in the faq though) only to be ridiculed. hence I don't utilise said forums. Forums are only as good as the people (and mods) in them.

Dragan
I can see it leading to nothing except the advancement of a sense of elitism on the board.

this is important as it kills the fun element. Why would they be elite anyway ? because they have €1,000,000 worth of equipment ? because phtography is their job ? I've seen great photos taken on otherwise 'useless' cameras and equally 'professionals' that to look at a photo would make you ill.

I think the thing is that in photography you shouldn't take yourself or it too seriously. If you do then its beyond a hobby. If it stops becoming fun for me then I will stop doing it. I like making pictures. Occasionally I like to make pictures that have some sort of beauty or artistic merit. But if I want to take pictures of (say) a dead fly 100 times over I will as its my prerogative.

I do think that the photography section is one of the best on boards.ie, but we need to keep it that way and slip into the pitfalls that often occur in other photography forums.

30-08-2008 12:40am

Seems like a lot has happened in the past week,just noticed we have 3 new mods...Welcome our new mod overlords

As for the matter of basic manners I think we've always treated newcomers with respect regardless of the quality of their work(ignoring one C&C thread recently which was sad to see.) Apart from that thread I've seen hardly any disrespect or elitism from the members of the forum.Looking at the responses to the "take photos of me for free" thread they were evenly balanced and there was no real attack made at the OP.The posters just voiced their opinion on the matter and told the OP what they thought of such offers.I don't feel this was done in an offensive manner.

Basic manners are a necessary part of any society but I think most people here already know that.I think this might be a slight over reaction to the thread in question.I'm all for manners and make a habit of never making rude posts as do most people here.The forum hasn't exactly descended into chaos just yet.

Dragan · 30-08-2008 10:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

Basic manners are a necessary part of any society but I think most people here already know that.I think this might be a slight over reaction to the thread in question.I'm all for manners and make a habit of never making rude posts as do most people here.The forum hasn't exactly descended into chaos just yet.

I would agree with you if this were solely about that thread but it's not. And it should also be noted that 99% of of our posters behave in exactly the fashion we would like but there are one or two elements on the forum we hope to change.

This is definitively not aimed at everyone on the forum but rather is just being put out there for public consumption. I imagine in a week or so this thread will have been forgotten but hopefully those who need to take a lesson from it shall.

It's also been a great way for us Mods to get Feedback and it's clear from reading that at times some people have felt a bit put out on the forum. Hopefully it has also encouraged some people who may have drifted away to come back and some lurkers to begin posting and that can never be a bad thing.

ThOnda · 30-08-2008 10:16am

I think that we could close this thread. We have been reminded to behave like social people with respect to other peoples' opinions and I do believe that we are capable of doing so.
If I have different opinion on something, the easiest thing to do is to try to explain what and why makes me think that way. And I really think that articulated language and respectful behavior belongs to social page accessible be kids and pregnant women.
Thanks to all mods and people who took time to read, think and remind themselves that quality of this forum will be the same as we and our posts.

Basic Manners on the Forum

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