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Ryanair emergency diversion

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  • 26-08-2008 9:03am
    #1
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Just read that an FR flight lost cabin pressure and diverted into Limoges. Flight was Bristol-Girona.
    16 pax required medical aid after the descent.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7581492.stm

    Interview on the BBC site shows the incident was handled technically well by the cockpit but that the pax got no info for 15 mins. The english guy doesn't seem impressed by the cabin crew a all. However I personally think his assumption that there was no oxygen from the masks is a bit much and will be in the redtops tomorrow. Those masks do not provide a strong flow of O2.


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    #2
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    I think Ryanair handled it exceptionally well, ie they got the plane down safely. We have heard of other horrific stories involving cabin pressure I.E Helios Airways Flight 522. I was surprised to hear that just a Ryanair technician is being flown out to investigate the matter, I would have thought that someone from Boeing would be called out because of the seriousness of the incident seen as these aircraft are relatively new.


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    #3
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I think Ryanair handled it exceptionally well, ie they got the plane down safely. We have heard of other horrific stories involving cabin pressure I.E Helios Airways Flight 522. I was surprised to hear that just a Ryanair technician is being flown out to investigate the matter, I would have thought that someone from Boeing would be called out because of the seriousness of the incident seen as these aircraft are relatively new.

    As I said above it was handled technically well. It seems the cabin crew didn't do much. Not sure of the FR drills for a decompression but after the a/c leveled off they should have been in the cabin ensuring that all pax had masks on or placed masks on any unconscious pax. They should have been comms between cockpit and cabin which then would have allowed the cabin crew to give some basic info to the pax. Obviously the cockpit crew would be busy so unable to make announcements until the quoted 10-15 mins before landing.
    Am sure FR will look at the plane as well as Boeing.


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    #4
    highlydebased
    Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    See http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/plane/boeing/B737/instructor/0052/


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    #5
    alpha2zulu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭alpha2zulu


    As others have said above, it would seem Ryanair handled the situation by the book. In an emergency all pleasentries rightly go out the window. If i was in that situation i would be perfectly happy for the crew, both CC and flight deck, to concentrate on the job in hand instead of a big announcement of whats going on.Any crew member will risk Hypoxia by removing their oxygen masks to make a PA for even a short period. Incapacitated crew members is certainly not needed in an emergency situation.


    As for the comments by the explorer, seems as if hes got a bit of a grudge against the airline.Came across a bit of a plonker looking for his 15 minutes of fame. By this morning he managed to hit all the major UK news outlets. Unfortuenetly his wild and unsubstantiated claims went unchallenged by any of the interviewers.


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    #6
    Flyer1
    Registered Users Posts: 664 ✭✭✭Flyer1


    Well done to the pilots and the cabin crew. They kept cool heads as they were trained and kept the pax as relaxed as possible.


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    #7
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    alpha2zulu wrote: »
    As for the comments by the explorer, seems as if hes got a bit of a grudge against the airline.Came across a bit of a plonker looking for his 15 minutes of fame. By this morning he managed to hit all the major UK news outlets. Unfortuenetly his wild and unsubstantiated claims went unchallenged by any of the interviewers.
    +1

    He was whinging on about being 'kept in the dark'.

    Myself, I'd have rather been kept in the air than kept in the dark, obviously the flight crew were busy trying to arrange an emergency landing at what probably was an unfamiliar airport to them.

    Well done to the crew.


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    #8
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,701 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    It's a very disturbing story.

    21 unsold seats on a flight to Spain in peak season.

    My thoughts are with the board at this difficult time.


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    #9
    Foggy43
    Registered Users Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭Foggy43


    Hold on a minute here. We do not know whose fault this is. It could just as easily have been a cock up by the crew.

    A report that Ryanair are sending a technician to investigate the matter sounds suspicious to me. Maybe is was a simple oversight on the pre-flight checklist.

    It been a while since I worked the B737's. I presume the cabin oxygen is self generating.


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    #10
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Foggy43 wrote: »
    Hold on a minute here. We do not know whose fault this is. It could just as easily have been a cock up by the crew.

    A report that Ryanair are sending a technician to investigate the matter sounds suspicious to me. Maybe is was a simple oversight on the pre-flight checklist.

    It been a while since I worked the B737's. I presume the cabin oxygen is self generating.
    I thought it was stored in two bottles next to the cargo hold doors, one blew up recently on a Quantas 747 400. It would be up to the air crew to check the valves and gauges for leaks and pressure on these cylinders.


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    #11
    alpha2zulu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭alpha2zulu


    thought it was stored in two bottles next to the cargo hold doors,

    As far as I know , on the 737NG series each row of 3 seats has its own oxygen generator in the overhead panel.
    Dyflin
    It's a very disturbing story.

    21 unsold seats on a flight to Spain in peak season.

    My thoughts are with the board at this difficult time.

    Where have I seen that post already this morning....:P
    Although your right, it is a bit of a tragedy, but hopefully there was just a large number of no-shows at Bristol:D


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    #12
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Foggy43 wrote: »
    It been a while since I worked the B737's. I presume the cabin oxygen is self generating.

    Drop down masks are supplied by a container of chemically generated oxygen which is acivaed by the act of tugging on the masks. This then supplies o2 to all 4 masks in that row.

    If masks have not been tugged there will be no oxygen supplied. Which is why the cabin crew check all rows once the aircraft has leveled at a lower altitude and they get cleareance from the captain to move aound with their own portable oxygen supply.


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    #13
    wittymoniker
    Registered Users Posts: 205 ✭✭wittymoniker


    Foggy43 wrote: »
    Hold on a minute here. We do not know whose fault this is. It could just as easily have been a cock up by the crew.

    A report that Ryanair are sending a technician to investigate the matter sounds suspicious to me. Maybe is was a simple oversight on the pre-flight checklist.

    It been a while since I worked the B737's. I presume the cabin oxygen is self generating.


    hardly think they would have been as far as limoges without cabin pressure and there are no oxygen generators on a 737, there are 2 tanks, one crew and one pax. what work did you do on 737s, washing them?


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    #14
    Biro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Biro


    Bramble wrote: »
    Drop down masks are supplied by a container of chemically generated oxygen which is acivaed by the act of tugging on the masks. This then supplies o2 to all 4 masks in that row.

    If masks have not been tugged there will be no oxygen supplied. Which is why the cabin crew check all rows once the aircraft has leveled at a lower altitude and they get cleareance from the captain to move aound with their own portable oxygen supply.

    This is true alright, but isn't it a bit late for the crew to check this after they're at the altitude where masks are no longer needed? :D I know they can't do anything during the high rate of decent, but is there much point afterwards? Also, don't the masks just give about 3 minutes of oxygen or something? Just enough to get to levelling off point?


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    #15
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    If people paid attention to the cabin crew's briefing before take off instead of chatting and reading the papers probably none of this would ever have happened. Instructions on how to use these masks are also printed on the headrests of the foreward facing seats.


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    #16
    *Kol*
    Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭*Kol*


    wittymoniker wrote: »
    hardly think they would have been as far as limoges without cabin pressure and there are no oxygen generators on a 737, there are 2 tanks, one crew and one pax. what work did you do on 737s, washing them?

    You should have read up two posts before making that smart alec comment.

    Pax oxygen bottles on the B737 haven't been used since the B737-200. As was already correctly stated above the passenger oxygen system is by means of individidual chemical oxygen generators in the passenger service unit (PSU) above your head.

    What work have you done on B737?? Baggage loading?


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    #17
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    If people paid attention to the cabin crew's briefing before take off instead of chatting and reading the papers probably none of this would ever have happened. Instructions on how to use these masks are also printed on the headrests of the foreward facing seats.

    When the masks have to be used, there should be an automatic recorded voice announcement in English other main European languages telling people what to do again, stressing the need to pull down on the mask to start the flow of oxygen. They should then be told by the same automated system why this is happening in general terms - to reduce anxiety.

    If cabin crew can't use the PA system for 15 minutes - it is unreasonably to expect an aircraft load of people to sit down and think everything is hunky dory. The aircraft was presumably registered in Ireland, and in my view it is negligent of the IAA not to require automated instructions to be issued again in the event of mask deployment, at that point.

    .probe


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    #18
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    probe wrote: »
    The aircraft was presumably registered in Ireland, and in my view it is negligent of the IAA not to require automated instructions to be issued again in the event of mask deployment, at that point.

    .probe
    No negligence involved on Ryanairs or the IAA's behalf as there is no international law required for recorded messages in any emergency. What if the pilot spent several minutes fumbling around with a tape recorder in the cockpit trying to broadcast these messages and lost the plane in the process as what could have happened on Helios Airways flight HCY 522

    I bet those 16 people that ended up in hospital were fumbling through their handbags or listening to their IPods during the drill. A lesson learned and they will know in future what to do. Ryanair should bar them for future flights for causing such a nuisance including the cost of hiring a coach.

    Ryanairs official statement: http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=aug&story=pro-en-260808


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    #19
    MOH
    Registered Users Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭MOH


    probe wrote: »
    When the masks have to be used, there should be an automatic recorded voice announcement in English other main European languages telling people what to do again, stressing the need to pull down on the mask to start the flow of oxygen. They should then be told by the same automated system why this is happening in general terms - to reduce anxiety.

    If cabin crew can't use the PA system for 15 minutes - it is unreasonably to expect an aircraft load of people to sit down and think everything is hunky dory. The aircraft was presumably registered in Ireland, and in my view it is negligent of the IAA not to require automated instructions to be issued again in the event of mask deployment, at that point.

    .probe


    I trust you'll be writing to the IAA to inform them of their negligence?


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    #20
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    No negligence involved on Ryanairs or the IAA's behalf as there is no international law required for recorded messages in any emergency. What if the pilot spent several minutes fumbling around with a tape recorder in the cockpit trying to broadcast these messages and lost the plane in the process as what could have happened on Helios Airways flight HCY 522

    I bet those 16 people that ended up in hospital were fumbling through their handbags or listening to their IPods during the drill. A lesson learned and they will know in future what to do. Ryanair should bar them for future flights for causing such a nuisance including the cost of hiring a coach.

    Ryanairs official statement: http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=aug&story=pro-en-260808

    The pilot shouldn't have to do anything to get this recorded voice announcement to activate. It should be preferably automatic, when the mask activation takes place or the cabin crew should be able to play the message from the system - like all the other in-flight recorded messages.

    .probe


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    #21
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    MOH wrote: »
    I trust you'll be writing to the IAA to inform them of their negligence?

    I think there are enough IAA insiders both here and in the boards commuting and transport threads to read what I have to say on the matter.

    While I am at it, I came across this airworthiness directive on the FAA website concerning problems affecting the activation mechanism in the chemical oxygen generator of this model of aircraft - caused by a fracture of components between the passenger oxygen mask and the release pin in the oxygen generator. Perhaps this is why certain passengers apparently couldn't get oxygen and ended up in a Limoges hospital?

    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgAD.nsf/0/41A326ACF2EBEED9862572AC0051B919?OpenDocument

    .probe


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    #22
    *Kol*
    Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭*Kol*


    dont think there is any need to have an announcement to tell people to put on the mask when, 1. it's dangling in front of their face, 2. Even the slowest of people would notice the majority of the other pax donning the mask.3. They have been told how to do it at the beginning of the flight (whether they watched it or not is another thing).

    Also the people who were taken to hospital were complaining of earaches according to the article(presumably from the quicker than normal desent.

    People expect a hurricane of oxygen to come through the mask when in reality it's coming from a nozzle thats about 2 mm in diameter into three or four masks due to a chemical process. Its not coming from a pressurised tank (even if it was it would be regulated). If you put on a oxygen mask in the cockpit and use it there is no great pressure either.

    generator.jpg


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    #23
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    *Kol* wrote: »
    dont think there is any need to have an announcement to tell people to put on the mask when, 1. it's dangling in front of their face, 2. Even the slowest of people would notice the majority of the other pax donning the mask.3. They have been told how to do it at the beginning of the flight (whether they watched it or not is another thing).

    Also the people who were taken to hospital were complaining of earaches according to the article(presumably from the quicker than normal desent.

    People expect a hurricane of oxygen to come through the mask when in reality it's coming from a nozzle thats about 2 mm in diameter into three or four masks due to a chemical process. Its not coming from a pressurised tank (even if it was it would be regulated). If you put on a oxygen mask in the cockpit and use it there is no great pressure either.

    I don't agree. This is an important communications issue - people only retain a fraction of what they hear over a period of time. The message has to be repeated - and perhaps given in more detail in the event of an oxygen mask deployment. There are also cultural issues to be taken into consideration - in most European countries people expect detailed specific instructions on everything.

    In Ireland things tend to be somewhat vague. Irish airlines are operating on a global basis in terms of passenger flows and need to communicate accordingly.

    Once people can breathe, they won't complain. They are not expecting a gush of air into their masks. Anyway this aircraft type would appear to have a history of problems with delivering oxygen on mask deployments - see the FAA link I posted above.

    .probe


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    #24
    *Kol*
    Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭*Kol*


    probe wrote: »
    I don't agree. This is an important communications issue - people only retain a fraction of what they hear over a period of time. The message has to be repeated - and perhaps given in more detail in the event of an oxygen mask deployment. There are also cultural issues to be taken into consideration - in most European countries people expect detailed specific instructions on everything.

    In Ireland things tend to be somewhat vague. Irish airlines are operating on a global basis in terms of passenger flows and need to communicate accordingly.

    Once people can breathe, they won't complain. They are not expecting a gush of air into their masks. Anyway this aircraft type would appear to have a history of problems with delivering oxygen on mask deployments - see the FAA link I posted above.

    .probe

    You are correct in saying that people dont retain the instructions, partly because they dont listen to them in the first palce and they never look at the safety cards. An automatic anouncement could work if people could hear/understand it during the inevitable commotion/talking when the masks drop.

    As for this aircraft having a history, I wouldn't agree there. The AD was issued in 2007 and has a 60 month compliance time. If it was very seriuos the remial actions would have to be complied with in a much shorter timeframe. You will notice the AD applies to B757 too.


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    #25
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    *Kol* wrote: »
    As for this aircraft having a history, I wouldn't agree there. The AD was issued in 2007 and has a 60 month compliance time. If it was very seriuos the remial actions would have to be complied with in a much shorter timeframe. You will notice the AD applies to B757 too.

    If you read the FAA document they say that "Chemical oxygen generators failing to activate during in-flight decompression events is a significant safety issue". Whether or not this took place on the FR flight in question remains to be determined.

    The aircraft in question is reportedly 5 years old, and recently had an overhaul according to some of the media reports I read/heard. One would expect that an issue of this magnitude would have been addressed during this overhaul.

    If it concerned your car, and the manufacturer notified you of a problem with the air conditioning system, where there was lets say a tiny risk that your air supply in the vehicle might be contaminated making it difficult to breathe, you'd be sure to get it fixed quickly. You wouldn't wait for five years.

    There is too much emphasis on dollars and cents in that FAA notice in my view - particularly given the clapped out condition of much of the US commercial aircraft fleet. But that's another issue. However it does reflect on the way the aviation industry is regulated, and one hopes that the European industry is not subject to the same Euros and cents pressure when safety matters are concerned.

    .probe


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    #26
    wittymoniker
    Registered Users Posts: 205 ✭✭wittymoniker


    *Kol* wrote: »
    You should have read up two posts before making that smart alec comment.

    Pax oxygen bottles on the B737 haven't been used since the B737-200. As was already correctly stated above the passenger oxygen system is by means of individidual chemical oxygen generators in the passenger service unit (PSU) above your head.

    What work have you done on B737?? Baggage loading?



    about 7000 hours, how about you?


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    #27
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    One simple solution to this problem of not paying attention during the manditory safety drill is to follow it by a test with random questions about emergency procedures among passengers and offer spot prizes of free flights for correct answers and boot any one who fails it off the plane.


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    #28
    KhanTheMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭KhanTheMan


    This has happened a few times on Ryanair flights now. Usually its swept under the carpet. I have a friend who was on a Ryanair flight from Barcelona to Dublin a few years ago wen this happned. His and many other passengers ears were damaged. No ryanair rep cam to see them for hours and when they did they wouldnt get a doctor even though people asked for one. The way they played it was to pretend it never happened.

    There are more incidents but heres one.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-200622.html


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    #29
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    probe wrote:
    Once people can breathe, they won't complain.

    Same if they can't breathe ;-p

    Obviously the event was quite a fright for any passenger on board. However, there is nothing to suggest that Ryanair did anything wrong or were found lacking in their care of passengers.

    The crew have instructed how to put on masks and it's on the seat in front. There is nothing vague about it. There is a very precise and deliberate instruction given to all passengers before take off. Isn't 'English' the international defacto language of aviation?

    While the plane is descending to a safe level and with masks on I would not expect the crew to be moving or talking. Afterall, taking off your mask could kill you.

    Passengers who were of the opinion that they were not receiving oxygen may well have not activated the flow or could have their masks on incorrectly.

    It seems that the injuries that were reported were caused by the rapid descent and depressurisation rather than lack of oxygen.

    Even with the highest standards of maintinance, failures do occur. It seems that this aircraft and crew coped well with the situation. I don't think any other airline would have done anything differently and I don't think there would have been anything to be gained by having an automated multi-lingual message.

    If the biggest gripe that people can complain about after they embarked the aircraft is that they felt there could have been more communication then so be it.


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    #30
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    KhanTheMan wrote: »
    This has happened a few times on Ryanair flights now. Usually its swept under the carpet. I have a friend who was on a Ryanair flight from Barcelona to Dublin a few years ago wen this happned. His and many other passengers ears were damaged. No ryanair rep cam to see them for hours and when they did they wouldnt get a doctor even though people asked for one. The way they played it was to pretend it never happened.

    There are more incidents but heres one.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-200622.html
    Im sure it has been swept under the carpet by many other airlines. Unfortunitally decompression problems can be expected in with any airline. People concerned about their ears popping should bring their own pack of boiled sweets or else take the ferry and be done with it.


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    #31
    Fishtits
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭Fishtits


    Pprune riddled responses... :P

    Remind me... how many died?

    Move on, nowt to see here, etc.


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