On the subject of vetos

thelordofcheese · 06-06-2008 2:27pm #1

Right i have searched for this question before and i can't see it being asked, but appologies if i'm duplicating an earlier thread.

Anyway, as the title says, vetos. One of the claims i've seen by people on the 'No' side is that ireland will lose it's veto in 31 areas with the introduction of MQV.

Now, my question is did ireland have an actual veto in 31 or so areas prior to the introduction of MQV (as in, regardless of the vote we could just stamp our foots and go "NO!") and is that actual veto is being removed with the switch to MQV or is this an extension of the "we'll lose 60% of our vote" myth, reasoning that if we've lost so much of our votes worth that we can't realistically veto anything.

Sorry if that's not clear, i've phrased it as best i can.

The_Minister · 06-06-2008 2:38pm

We do lose actual vetoes.

However, most of the areas that we lose them in aren't crucial, and since Europe works on consensus, we have used them about twice AFAIK.

molloyjh · 06-06-2008 2:57pm

http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/LisbonTreaty_QMV_new_English.pdf

Dave! · 06-06-2008 3:15pm

Don't all countries lose the veto? Therefore it can be as beneficial as detrimental to Ireland...

Daftendirekt · 06-06-2008 3:44pm

Yes, in fact, there are around 50 areas being changed to QMV, but with our opt outs it's more like 34-ish for us.

The reason vetoes are being lost is because in a 27+ state EU it's extremely impractical for any one country to be able to block any legislation it wants. But as The_Minister said, Europe usually operates by consensus, and if you check the list, the vetoes we're losing aren't majorly important ones.

thelordofcheese · 07-06-2008 3:03am

grand, i've got it now.
The fact that everyone loses their veto makes sense to me, the way it was phrased seemed to imply Ireland would be the only one who's veto would be removed.

BlitzKrieg · 07-06-2008 4:06pm

also arent alot of these vetoes things that are inter european, things that directly affect numerous member states directly but not anyone singuler.

what i mean its things like inter european transport and inter european market and fisheries boarders between states etc.

sink · 07-06-2008 4:15pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

also arent alot of these vetoes things that are inter european, things that directly affect numerous member states directly but not anyone singuler.

what i mean its things like inter european transport and inter european market and fisheries boarders between states etc.

Pretty much so yes. Anything that only affect states individually should be dealt with at national level through the principle of subsidiary.

dlofnep · 07-06-2008 5:03pm

Ok so - Anyone care to list the supposidly unimportant areas in which we do not really need to veto? I think it's up to the public to decide what's important to them, and not a random poster stating it's unimportant for the sake of it.

Stabshauptmann · 07-06-2008 5:07pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Ok so - Anyone care to list the supposidly unimportant areas in which we do not really need to veto? I think it's up to the public to decide what's important to them, and not a random poster stating it's unimportant for the sake of it.

The list is in the 3rd post in this thread

sink · 07-06-2008 5:11pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Ok so - Anyone care to list the supposidly unimportant areas in which we do not really need to veto? I think it's up to the public to decide what's important to them, and not a random poster stating it's unimportant for the sake of it.

I was referring to the areas were we have opt outs.

referendum commission wrote:

Arrangements for how Member States evaluate the implementation of EU policies in
the areas of freedom, security and justice*
Administrative cooperation within the area of freedom, security and justice after
consulting the European Parliament*
Measures concerning border checks*
Measures concerning an asylum system*
Measures concerning an immigration policy*

The other areas I believe it will be more beneficial to Ireland that no other country has veto's either, so they can't protect the special interests of a minority. This is just my opinion take it or leave it.

referendum commission wrote:

Election of the President of the European Council by the European Council
Configurations of the Council of Ministers (other than the Foreign Affairs Council)
Appointment of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and
Security Policy by the European Council
Conclusion of a withdrawal agreement with a Member State wishing to leave the EU
Determination of the procedures and conditions required for a citizens’ initiative for
legislation
Establishment of certain measures concerning transport
Measures concerning the creation of European intellectual property rights to provide
uniform intellectual property rights protection throughout the EU
Amendment of some articles of the Statute of the European System of Central Banks
Measures necessary for use of the euro
M-5395803-2
Promotion of certain sporting issues
Incentive measures in the cultural field
Measures necessary to draw up a European Space Policy
Measures relating to energy policy
Some aspects of the common commercial policy
Measures for drawing up a framework for humanitarian aid
Decision defining the European Defence Agency’s statute, seat and operational rules
Implementation of the solidarity clause in the event of a Member State suffering a
terrorist attack or a disaster
Amendment of some of the provisions of the Court of Justice’s Statute and
establishment of specialist courts
Arrangements for the control of implementing powers

The_Minister · 07-06-2008 5:14pm

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

The list is in the 3rd post in this thread

I don't think that that is all of them.

The list was posted on boards before...I'll try and dig it up.

EDIT: Thanks Sink

dlofnep · 07-06-2008 5:14pm

Thank you. And please, if you could outline if you find all of them unimportant or any of which you feel we should have control over? Yes/No tit for tats aside.

BlitzKrieg · 07-06-2008 9:13pm

Election of the President of the European Council by the European Council
Configurations of the Council of Ministers (other than the Foreign Affairs Council)
Appointment of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and
Security Policy by the European Council

these a EU issues that I feel QMV would be a better representation and a veto by single nations would prove to be abused rather then used in a democratic manner

Conclusion of a withdrawal agreement with a Member State wishing to leave the EU

not sure on this one, I assume its addressing what agreement is finalised between the EU and the leaving state such as compensation between states for investment or new tariffs etc coming up between EU, a veto would be again abused by states demanding more from the leaving state in way of compensation I would guess

Determination of the procedures and conditions required for a citizens’ initiative for
legislation

Again to ensure that the citizens initiative is fair and equal among all states the EU must agree on a common process among all states and a veto would be again abused, more likely by the larger states if the process put more power in the smaller states (or maybe vice versa)

Establishment of certain measures concerning transport

I thought this was only inter european transport? hmm. Not sure on this one, I cant see a risk to ireland except maybe to Ryanair, but seeing as every country has a cheap airline these days I dont see QMV going against us here.

Measures concerning the creation of European intellectual property rights to provide
uniform intellectual property rights protection throughout the EU

protection for the arts across europe. I accept this and I dont see the reason why Ireland should have a veto on this

Amendment of some articles of the Statute of the European System of Central Banks
Measures necessary for use of the euro
M-5395803-2

Euro issues, I feel that it is for the best that no country has a veto when it comes to the common currency

Promotion of certain sporting issues
Incentive measures in the cultural field

Inter european cultural promotion. I rather not have a veto abused on these.

Measures necessary to draw up a European Space Policy
Measures relating to energy policy
Some aspects of the common commercial policy
Measures for drawing up a framework for humanitarian aid

Again its a matter of policies, vetoes would mostly be abused, since the matter of energy is an important agenda in the treaty I think a common energy/humanitar policy would be for the best.

Decision defining the European Defence Agency’s statute, seat and operational rules

This is one I would say would be heavily abused by larger states if vetoes existed

Implementation of the solidarity clause in the event of a Member State suffering a
terrorist attack or a disaster

Again I rather not have inter politics between two eastern european states stopping the EU as a whole with a veto.

Amendment of some of the provisions of the Court of Justice’s Statute and
establishment of specialist courts
Arrangements for the control of implementing powers

not sure on this one.

For the most part the policies we are giving up our veto on are ones that are inter european issues, ones that are not to be focused on individual states but on the eu's stance as a whole, therefore they are areas where for the most part vetoes would be an abusive and selfish ssytem for the majority who would benefit from them.

On the subject of vetos

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