Fire regs and open plan

sydthebeat · 20-05-2008 9:27pm #1

Is there any circumstance where an open plan kitchen / living / dining arrangement can have a stairs accessed off it?

I know the fire regs state that the stair shall not discharge into a kitchen, so does that mean it can discharge into the living space once its at least 3 m away from the 'kitchen' area? What are others views on this? to date i havent been designing this as ive seen it as a fire hazard, but these clients are particularly determined.

This particular situation is occuring in a design for an extension. The open plan stair is discharging into the living area and will be located 6.8 m away from any kitchen area. The bottom stair is located 1.5 m from an access door.

Is this ok?

Gumbo · 20-05-2008 10:29pm

i was in a newly built (within the last 3 years) house up in Rath Lodge in Ashbourne and the staircase from upstairs landed in the sitting room and the siiting room was separated from the kitchen by standard double doors ie. not fire doors etc.

so in essence this was all open plan too. hope this helps.

sinnerboy · 20-05-2008 11:43pm

An open-plan arrangement, where the stairway rises
directly from the ground storey accommodation is
less preferable than the arrangement at (ii) above
and is only acceptable where:
- the stairway discharges to within 4.5 m of a door
at the ground storey leading directly to the open
air;
- the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen
and either:
• any ground storey kitchen is enclosed in
storey height construction which need not
be fire resisting or;
• where the stairway passes within 3 m of the
kitchen, the stairway should be enclosed in
storey-height construction which need not
be fire-resisting;
- a fire detection and alarm system is provided, in
accordance with 1.5.5;
- all habitable rooms at the upper storey are
provided with windows for escape or rescue in
accordance with 1.5.6; and
- the design meets the general provisions for
dwelling houses, outlined in 1.5.8.

Syd - i think not - i have highlighted the parts of text which leads me to this conclusion

Mellor · 21-05-2008 12:04am

kceire wrote: »

i was in a newly built (within the last 3 years) house up in Rath Lodge in Ashbourne and the staircase from upstairs landed in the sitting room and the siiting room was separated from the kitchen by standard double doors ie. not fire doors etc.

so in essence this was all open plan too. hope this helps.

The fact that it was built like that has no bearing on the regs and weither or not it should be done.
Also, that stairs discharges into the sitting room, not the kitchen, so that is ok from the regs point of view,

Focus;
Sinnerboys posts highlights the regs, and to me the regs are pretty clear.
It can't discharge into the kitchen, and when it discharges to an open plan area the kitchen must be walled off (or the stairs when its within 3m)

sydthebeat · 21-05-2008 12:20pm

thats my reading of it as well however, there is a bit of ambiguity also....

- the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen
and either:
• any ground storey kitchen is enclosed in
storey height construction which need not
be fire resisting or;
• where the stairway passes within 3 m of the
kitchen, the stairway should be enclosed in
storey-height construction which need not
be fire-resisting;

on reading the bold sections above, that may mean that it can discharge into the living 'area' once it doesnt come within 3 m of the kitchen 'area'.... no?

I think ill contact the dept this afternoon for a definition....

Slig · 21-05-2008 12:41pm

I can never get an answer from the Dept. they always fob me off to the LA enforcement section, who are generally no help at all.

sinnerboy · 21-05-2008 12:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats my reading of it as well however, there is a bit of ambiguity also....

- the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen
and either:
• any ground storey kitchen is enclosed in
storey height construction which need not
be fire resisting or;
• where the stairway passes within 3 m of the
kitchen, the stairway should be enclosed in
storey-height construction which need not
be fire-resisting;

on reading the bold sections above, that may mean that it can discharge into the living 'area' once it doesnt come within 3 m of the kitchen 'area'.... no?

I think ill contact the dept this afternoon for a definition....

underlined text here in your case Syd has the same pracitcal affect I would think -
i.e. "no" to open plan

sinnerboy · 21-05-2008 12:57pm

sorry syd I re read your op - the kitchen area is 6.8m from the stairs .....

I would still be careful .

In an open plan the kitchen area may not be deemed "fixed" .

Mellor · 21-05-2008 2:39pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats my reading of it as well however, there is a bit of ambiguity also....

- the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen
and either:
• any ground storey kitchen is enclosed in
storey height construction which need not
be fire resisting or;
• where the stairway passes within 3 m of the
kitchen, the stairway should be enclosed in
storey-height construction which need not
be fire-resisting;

on reading the bold sections above, that may mean that it can discharge into the living 'area' once it doesnt come within 3 m of the kitchen 'area'.... no?

I think ill contact the dept this afternoon for a definition....

I wouldn't agree with your reading of it,

It doesn't say kitchen to be inclosed when with in 3metres.

It say kitchen must be inclosed.
Or, when stairs is within 3 metres, stairs must be inclosed.

If you are within 3 metres you have to comply with second, if you are beyond this you have a choice, but one must be dealt with. Putting it as continous text makes it quite clear.

cont text wrote:

An open-plan arrangement, where the stairway rises directly from the ground storey accommodation is less preferable than the arrangement above and is only acceptable where;

the stairway discharges to within 4.5 m of a door at the ground storey leading directly to the open air and the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen and any ground storey kitchen is enclosed in storey height construction which need not be fire resisting

OR WHERE

the stairway discharges to within 4.5 m of a door at the ground storey leading directly to the open air and the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen and where the stairway passes within 3 m of the kitchen, the stairway should be enclosed in
storey-height construction which need not be fire-resisting;

sinnerboy · 21-05-2008 3:09pm

Yeah Mellor , reckon you got it

sydthebeat · 21-05-2008 3:35pm

yep, i agree... thats my reading... time to let the clients know....

Mellor · 23-05-2008 9:08am

I just thought of an extra bit,
If a sprinkler system was installed, the limitations would be reduced,
im not sure where you would get guidence on that though, fire consultant??

Garroldy · 09-06-2008 2:05pm

I know the thread is old, but just came across it.

The only helpful aspect is that the enclosure of either the kitchen or the stairs does not have to be fire resistant. This could be completed with a glazed screen, giving an 'open plan' impression.

Sprinklers are can be expensive in domestic situations. Additional water storage and pumps are required if your domestic water pressure is not up to the job. (BS 9251: 2005 Sprinkler systems for residential and domestic occupancies –Code of practice. )

sydthebeat · 09-06-2008 2:39pm

ive always wondered why they say the construction need not be fire resisting.....

surely if it was seperated by say, cardboard, it would be worse than if its left open....

topcatcbr · 09-06-2008 2:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

ive always wondered why they say the construction need not be fire resisting.....

surely if it was seperated by say, cardboard, it would be worse than if its left open....

My opinion

I think it is due to the transfere of toxic fumes.
Therefore the openplan option would not be a runner.
see page 399 of hb manual

My understanding is either the kitchen is enclosed or the stairwell and exit is enclosed.

Mellor · 09-06-2008 5:59pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

My opinion

I think it is due to the transfere of toxic fumes.
Therefore the openplan option would not be a runner.
see page 399 of hb manual

My understanding is either the kitchen is enclosed or the stairwell and exit is enclosed.

I think syds was refering to the fact that story height construction is not defined (and should be imo)

Obviously a stud or blockwork wall do the job, but what about a perforated steel panel wall or a paper partition.

topcatcbr · 09-06-2008 8:36pm

Mellor wrote: »

I think syds was refering to the fact that story height construction is not defined (and should be imo)

Storey height in this situation would be from top of string to ceiling allowing for the (lined) under side of the stairs to be utilised within the room space.
(open Plan)

Mellor wrote: »

Obviously a stud or blockwork wall do the job, but what about a perforated steel panel wall or a paper partition.

I think common sense would dictate a more suitable material then paper or perforated metal as these would provide no measurable benifit.

Mellor · 10-06-2008 9:11am

You post above has just proved the point.
You have to assume what is allowable,
byw when I said story height construction was undefined I refered specficly to the construction part. There is little room for taking story height any other way.

icbarros · 17-01-2012 11:52am

Mellor wrote: »

I think syds was refering to the fact that story height construction is not defined (and should be imo)

I came across this query myself, but I'm not questioning the construction materials but the height that needs to be enclosed. What exactly do they mean with "the stairway should be enclosed in storey-height construction" ?

topcatcbr mentioned:

Storey height in this situation would be from top of string to ceiling allowing for the (lined) under side of the stairs to be utilised within the room space.
(open Plan)

Is this allowed? This is not exactly a "storey-height construction" in my opinion...

I am looking at an option where the stairs discharge on the living room where there is a door within 4.5m. But the staircase will be in the kitchen area (kitchen is fully enclosed and connected to living room by a door), and ideally the staircase will not be enclosed to the floor (so we can give the space underneath the stairs to the kitchen).

sydthebeat · 17-01-2012 1:04pm

icbarros wrote: »

I came across this query myself, but I'm not questioning the construction materials but the height that needs to be enclosed. What exactly do they mean with "the stairway should be enclosed in storey-height construction" ?

topcatcbr mentioned:
Is this allowed? This is not exactly a "storey-height construction" in my opinion...

I am looking at an option where the stairs discharge on the living room where there is a door within 4.5m. But the staircase will be in the kitchen area (kitchen is fully enclosed and connected to living room by a door), and ideally the staircase will not be enclosed to the floor (so we can give the space underneath the stairs to the kitchen).

to a degree it is "storey height construction" as the string will run from floor to ceiling. Protecting the underside has always been seen as an acceptable means of fire separation.

Slig · 17-01-2012 6:29pm

I really dont see how a sprinkler system would be advisable in this situation, while we are on the topic of common sense vs. regs.

Surely the most likely source of fire is cooking oils or possibly gas and the inevitable presence of multiple electrical goods could only make the situation worse.

Bubbling · 19-04-2016 11:34am

Taking the above Part B Building Regs: "the stairway should be enclosed in storey-height construction", this would typically require a wall to enclose the stairway. However at the bottom of the stairway, is a door required to the stairway to consider the stairway fully enclosed?

In the scenario described here, the stairway discharges within an Open Plan Living Space and within 4.5m of an external door.

Thanks!

sydthebeat · 19-04-2016 11:40am

Bubbling wrote: »

Taking the above Part B Building Regs: "the stairway should be enclosed in storey-height construction", this would typically require a wall to enclose the stairway. However at the bottom of the stairway, is a door required to the stairway to consider the stairway fully enclosed?

In the scenario described here, the stairway discharges within an Open Plan Living Space and within 4.5m of an external door.

Thanks!

the regs are quite clear:

An open-plan arrangement, where the stairway rises
directly from the ground storey accommodation is
less preferable than the arrangement at (ii) above
and is only acceptable where:
- the stairway discharges to within 4.5 m of a door
at the ground storey leading directly to the open
air;
- the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen
and either:
• any ground storey kitchen is enclosed in
storey height construction which need not
be fire resisting or;
• where the stairway passes within 3 m of the
kitchen, the stairway should be enclosed in
storey-height construction which need not
be fire-resisting;

- a fire detection and alarm system is provided, in
accordance with 1.5.5;
- all habitable rooms at the upper storey are
provided with windows for escape or rescue in
accordance with 1.5.6; and
- the design meets the general provisions for
dwelling houses, outlined in 1.5.8.

magnethead · 23-10-2018 7:50pm

Excellent thread on open plan stairs

just lacking a few pictures...

Do you think this is covered by the rules? ....or is the ceiling area to the left of the stairs going to need to be capped off?
and where does the Kitchen start?

Stair1.jpg?raw=1

Gumbo · 23-10-2018 9:53pm

2 stores or 3 stores house?
You need to check TGDB Volume 2, dwelling houses. 2017.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/technical_guidance_document_b_fire_safety_volume_2_dwelling_houses.pdf

Page 18, diagram 1

Victor · 23-10-2018 10:16pm

Note that you have the utility room as an inner room off the kitchen. Or does that not have a door either and you get to listen to the spin cycle on the washing machine during dinner / while the children are trying to get to sleep?

I would pull the bottom of the stairs back by a few steps to prevent collisions.

BryanF · 23-10-2018 11:02pm

1.1.6 tgd k

Mellor · 24-10-2018 12:31am

magnethead wrote: »

Excellent thread on open plan stairs just lacking a few pictures...

Do you think this is covered by the rules? ....or is the ceiling area to the left of the stairs going to need to be capped off?
and where does the Kitchen start?

It's not strictly covered by TGD B as the stairs doesn't rise directly from the habitable room. But even though it isn't directly in the living room. If we assess it as such, it looks like it is compliant as the escape is within 4.5m.

That assumes it's 2 story dwelling. If there is a 3rd story, you'll need a fire protected stairs (fire doors and closers)

Victor wrote: »

Note that you have the utility room as an inner room off the kitchen.

Inner rooms are perfectly acceptable under TGD B.

BryanF wrote: »

1.1.6 tgd k

Potentially an issue. But the TGD is a bit wishy washy in that regard.

"you shouldn't have tapered steps...unless you have them"

Gumbo · 24-10-2018 7:43am

Also worth noting that if the OP uses the kitchen slider as a final exit, then it cannot contain any key locks internally. Must be thumb turn.

magnethead · 24-10-2018 9:32am

Thanks Very much guys,

kceire: It's a 2 story and the exit, is actually a door, with a large fixed pane beside it, but thanks for the thumb turn lock point.(I actually way prefer these to leaving the key hanging there, I know it's not as safe)
Victor: Yes the Utility will have a hidden door, to match it in with the presses. excellent tip on pulling in the step, will do.
Mellor Thanks for your inputs, the kids rooms are upstairs ;p and it's a solid concrete floor, but who knows, there probably will be a bit of sound travel up the stairs void, and also with the HRV, you have to leave 10mm under each doorway unfortunately, could be plenty of fart sounds coming out of the toilets, I was in an apartment recently with the under door gap setup and it was like sitting in the toilet with the person, even though I was 4M away in the Kitchen.

Fire regs and open plan

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