What to do with my Journalism Degree?

speedboatchase · 11-05-2008 4:12pm #1

Honestly, perhaps I'm being a little naive by trying jobs sites but anytime you look for publishing or media jobs all you're confronted with is SALES SALES SALES! Just finished my Media Print Journalism BA last week, hold a Diploma too from BCFE and I freelance for a Videogames PDF - however I CANNOT see any openings for me anywhere aside from writing for my local newspaper. I hate local newspapers. Does anyone have any knowledge to impart? Starting to get a little frustrated :mad:

jdivision · 11-05-2008 11:57pm

speedboatchase wrote: »

! Just finished my Media Print Journalism BA last week, hold a Diploma too from BCFE and I freelance for a Videogames PDF - however I CANNOT see any openings for me anywhere aside from writing for my local newspaper. I hate local newspapers. Does anyone have any knowledge to impart? Starting to get a little frustrated :mad:

Where did you get that degree from? Never heard of it.

The key is to get work experience. Apply to a bunch of newspapers - find out beforehand whom you should be applying to - and go in with an I'll do anything attitude even if it's making the tea. Have some ideas. Don't expect to be writing politics.

Nobody will make you staff straight out of college. you need to prove yourself.

speedboatchase · 12-05-2008 12:00am

University of Huddersfield its from - so unpaid work experience you reckon? Its the lack of funds from studying abroad that is one of the driving factors behind this thread!

santosubito · 12-05-2008 11:16am

speedboatchase wrote: »

Honestly, perhaps I'm being a little naive by trying jobs sites but anytime you look for publishing or media jobs all you're confronted with is SALES SALES SALES! Just finished my Media Print Journalism BA last week, hold a Diploma too from BCFE and I freelance for a Videogames PDF - however I CANNOT see any openings for me anywhere aside from writing for my local newspaper. I hate local newspapers. Does anyone have any knowledge to impart? Starting to get a little frustrated :mad:

Why do you hate local papers?
If you get the right one, there is no better place to learn the ropes.
Have you contacted any papers or newsrooms trying to get shifts?

speedboatchase · 12-05-2008 12:02pm

If you're not interested then it's not interesting my tutor used to say. I never read local newspapers and I don't have any desire to write about GAA Fundraisers etc. I've done work experience 3 times with one local newspaper and once with another but it really wasn't for me

santosubito · 12-05-2008 12:31pm

Well then, I suggest you apply to the nationals immediately.
Honestly, do you think every reporter who starts off in a local believes they've made it.
I did 18 months in a weekly after my postgrad (I did it in Scotland and thought I was far too important to wrok in a local, but I soon wised up).
I hated every minute of it.
But it made me the reporter I am. I see young ones coming into my office after DCU or whatever. Some are kept on because they show promise.
Very few of them live up to it because they haven't learned the skills they need to be a good reporter.
BUt then again maybe you're a natural genius and will walk into a staff/contract job on a national. Best of luck.

santosubito · 12-05-2008 1:04pm

jdivision wrote: »

Nobody will make you staff straight out of college. you need to prove yourself.

That's the nub of it, I'm afraid. But Flogen should be able to give you some good avice.

zenith · 12-05-2008 1:08pm

Here ya go.

Deputy editor - Official Xboxfrom Jobs from Journalism.co.uk
You will have a demonstrable passion for and knowledge of Xbox gaming and established network of contacts in the industry
Salary: On application
Location: London - Central
Closing date: 28/05/08

Got a media vacancy? Advertise it on Journalism.co.uk

speedboatchase · 12-05-2008 1:15pm

Santos, I'm just looking for a good application for my own journalism skills, I never said that I even want to be a reporter! Personally I'd enjoy in the long-run writing for a magazine but I'm trying to see from experiences with other posters if there is (and there must be) a different way to crack into the media industry with this degree and not write for local newspapers.

monument · 12-05-2008 1:54pm

zenith wrote: »

.... Deputy editor - Official Xboxfrom Jobs from Journalism.co.uk ....

You're not going to walk into a deputy editor job straight out of college. UK games journalism is as competitive - maybe even more so - than normal journalism.

santosubito · 12-05-2008 2:12pm

speedboatchase wrote: »

Santos, I'm just looking for a good application for my own journalism skills, I never said that I even want to be a reporter! Personally I'd enjoy in the long-run writing for a magazine but I'm trying to see from experiences with other posters if there is (and there must be) a different way to crack into the media industry with this degree and not write for local newspapers.

Well, as I have already written, best of luck.
I'm just pointing out the reality...no point having any delusions.

flogen · 12-05-2008 2:40pm

I'm not really sure what the OP is looking for - I'm not even sure if the OP is all that sure.

Firstly off - you won't find a job very quickly unless you're an amazingly talented journalist and you'll have to get by on contributing or shift-work at best for now. Once you start to earn a good reputation and get to know people in the industry doors will start to open up and you'll start hearing about more permanent positions as they become available. In other words, assuming you want to be a journalist of whatever description, you're just going to have to plug away at it and stick it out until it pays off.

My overarching advice to anyone starting out in journalism is to expect a frustrating time and a potentially long-haul... I graduated in 2006 and I'm still chugging away as a freelance while looking out for more permanent positions; things get better but slowly.

If you're looking to be a reporter I'd take santo's advice and go looking for some work experience in a national if you can - my own spin on that advice would be to try and get into a daily because working for a Sunday makes you fare more reliant on good contacts which as a fresh-outta-college journalist you may not have. With the likes of Sunday newspaper you can't follow the news agenda so you have to either break stories or find a news angle for an existing one. That said if you get the chance to work in a Sunday take it as there are plenty of ways to get by while you try and establish yourself; finding a niche is always a good one. If you do end up in a Sunday and do well quickly it'll only be all the more impressive, too.

Either way, newsroom experience is vital on any number of levels so try and get some.

If you're not so keen on being a news reporter then you have to decide what else you want. Do you want to write features? If so, find out who to pitch to and start pitching ideas. A lot of ideas. Expect most pitches to go unanswered or get rejected but always follow up; also expect the minority of your ideas to actually go anywhere, but that's all you need to get the ball rolling.

Other than that there are plenty of potential jobs that are only a side-step or two away from journalism; you could make your way into PR or marketing, you could teach (2nd level English, journalism etc.), you could become a runner or researcher (check the IFTN website for those kind of jobs) or you could go do a post grad in something entirely different and see where that takes you...

speedboatchase · 12-05-2008 2:52pm

What interests me Flogen (should've been clearer to be honest) would be perhaps an editorial assistant role, reasercher or some freelance features work. In terms of work experience with a National, is it simply a case of ringing the numbers on their websites or is there a particular position I should seek out to call within each paper?

zenith · 13-05-2008 7:19am

monument wrote: »

You're not going to walk into a deputy editor job straight out of college. UK games journalism is as competitive - maybe even more so - than normal journalism.

I really wonder about the standard of many journalism degrees if they don't offer basic career guidance/placement.

(Job was posted partially in jest.)

Xavi6 · 13-05-2008 7:28am

I think being so dismissive of local papers is a bit silly considering it is probably the easiest way into the industry. Even if you only do it for a couple of months at least you have the articles as part of your portfolio as well as references from editors etc. That's how I started out and I know that there wouldn't have been a hope of me getting the staff job I have now without that practical writing experience.

If you want to be a researcher of some type then ring the likes of Newstalk. They were always looking for people to do donkey work when I was in college.

santosubito · 13-05-2008 12:12pm

Xavi6 wrote: »

I think being so dismissive of local papers is a bit silly considering it is probably the easiest way into the industry. Even if you only do it for a couple of months at least you have the articles as part of your portfolio as well as references from editors etc. That's how I started out and I know that there wouldn't have been a hope of me getting the staff job I have now without that practical writing experience.

If you want to be a researcher of some type then ring the likes of Newstalk. They were always looking for people to do donkey work when I was in college.

+1

Pen1987 · 13-05-2008 12:12pm

if you went to BCFE you would have gotten a lot of career guidance.

Youre hardly gonna jump into a job in the nationals without any experience in the locals.

Dublin's Finest · 13-05-2008 5:48pm

To be fair, you're not in a position to rule anything out when you're starting out. I know your focus is in a niche area but aim to be a generalist for now.

Local papers get a bad rep but you'll learn a lot and will get some surprising opportunities (during general elections for example, when the party leaders turn up in your area).

Build up a body of work, keep an open mind and don't be too precious. Everyone's been used and abused in this industry - it's a cold hard truth. Just keep chugging away and apply for everything.

Happy scribbling.

DublinWriter · 13-05-2008 6:21pm

speedboatchase wrote: »

however I CANNOT see any openings for me anywhere aside from writing for my local newspaper. I hate local newspapers. Does anyone have any knowledge to impart? Starting to get a little frustrated :mad:

Well, FYI there's a post on this exact subject every month. Congratulations Miss. May!

I'll start by saying what I say everytime someone asks this question: the media business in Ireland is a clique. It's not what you know, it's who you know, etc, etc.

Consider yourself lucky if you can even get a job with your local newspaper. There's plenty in here that have asked the exact same question as you and who can't even get on that first rung.

If you're young and green then it's better to learn on the job and and make all your published mistakes in the local free Ballydahob Observer whilst getting paid for it.

You'll quickly learn than it's a cruel, cruel world out there if you expected to get snapped up by Reuters or The Irish Times when you graduated.

santosubito · 13-05-2008 6:38pm

DublinWriter wrote: »

Well, FYI there's a post on this exact subject every month. Congratulations Miss. May!

I'll start by saying what I say everytime someone asks this question: the media business in Ireland is a clique. It's not what you know, it's who you know, etc, etc.

Consider yourself lucky if you can even get a job with your local newspaper. There's plenty in here that have asked the exact same question as you and who can't even get on that first rung.

If you're young and green then it's better to learn on the job and and make all your published mistakes in the local free Ballydahob Observer whilst getting paid for it.

You'll quickly learn than it's a cruel, cruel world out there if you expected to get snapped up by Reuters or The Irish Times when you graduated.

Yes, indeed. And it is a long, hard, depresssing, dispiriting slog.
Realistically, you are talking the best part of a decade before you really do start to get where you want.
I qualified in 1994. But it was the year 2000 before I got on to a national and a few years before I got to be a correspondent. It's not an overnight thing, by any means.
But, at the same time, it's vaguely comforting to know that, in most cases, the harder you work, the better you do. Flashes in the pan tend to disappear - in a flash!:)

silvine · 13-05-2008 8:56pm

Which is more useful a journalism degree or this http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/clavvs/clavvs2.jpg?

speedboatchase · 13-05-2008 8:59pm

So any kind of roles such as editorial assistant or building up a portfolio of freelance features etc is pointless in Ireland without writing for a local newspaper? Its literally the only way? Gahhh

silvine · 13-05-2008 9:02pm

It's not literally the only way. A porfolio of stories always looks good as does a thick contacts book.

A local paper is just the fastwest way to get this, saving knowing someone in a national who will hire you.

speedboatchase · 13-05-2008 9:11pm

True, I'll keep on trucking until I have to get onto my local (prob by thurs

)

flogen · 13-05-2008 9:29pm

speedboatchase wrote: »

So any kind of roles such as editorial assistant or building up a portfolio of freelance features etc is pointless in Ireland without writing for a local newspaper? Its literally the only way? Gahhh

No - you should know by the nature of the course you did that there is never just one way to progress in journalism.

One thing you have to learn (and it's something I'm having to remind myself all the time) is that for every straight path there are 100 winding ones that all lead to the same place, albeit with a bit more effort and/or time involved.

Unless you know someone in high places it's unlikely that you'll find yourself on any kind of straight path for very long.

So you might earn your stripes in a local newspaper, by contributing to a national or a magazine or by doing something completely left-of-field. You may want to end up writing, say, about environmental issues but you may get to that position by writing about everything but environmental issues for 5 years until you see an opening.

In the beginning it's about gaining experience and keeping yourself fed, little more than that.

foreverchanges · 16-05-2008 11:06am

As has been said locals are a great way to learn the business, you cover such a wide variety of topics, from politics to courts to charity and community events. And it's not very easy to get into them either, I floated around freelancing sport and odd features for a year, till I got a chance to cover for a reporter gone on maternity leave for six months. But even though I thought I'd done well there and had a chance of being kept on was told there was no job for me after the six months. But those months helped me build up a good contacts book and portfolio and a reference from the editor, which in turn led me to getting a staff job with another local paper a month or so later and I'm still there.

I may have had dreams of walking into a national as soon as I left college but they soon disappeared when I found out how tough it was to even get a local job for a few months.

ronano · 23-06-2008 3:57pm

as a recent journalism graduate what would be the best way of approaching the local papers? pop in and talk or?

DublinWriter · 23-06-2008 7:21pm

ronano wrote: »

as a recent journalism graduate what would be the best way of approaching the local papers? pop in and talk or?

Cover letter + a couple of articles from your portfolio. Appear humble and keen. FFS don't just arrive on the doorstep in person.

Not wanting to sound rude, but don't they teach you that in journo college anymore?

I remember Damien Corless used to teach his kids how to approach publications for work when he was running a *cert* course in the VEC behind Northside Shopping Centre (name escapes me).

Dudess · 24-06-2008 12:48pm

OP, you can't be fussy. If you want a job, you've got to go with local/regional papers - try the Gazette Group if you're in Dublin. I'm kinda surprised you're dismissing them - what do you expect? Sure, it may not be glamorous to write for The Corkman in Mallow or whatever, but it will be experience and something on your CV. If you only want to write for bigger papers, be prepared to freelance. If you need structure, routine etc, you'll hate freelance.

I did a masters in journalism in 2005/06 purely because I wanted to be an arts/culture/features writer - no way did I want to be a news reporter. There are no jobs in arts/cultural/features journalism - just freelance. Then I tried to get into current affairs journalism (of considerable interest to me sure, but not an area I want to work in - I don't have the knowledge or the passion required) and got bits and bobs of radio research. Don't know what I was doing really, all I've ever wanted to do in radio was present music shows. Eventually it dawned on me that I was only trying to put my qualification to use and I hated life as a freelancer, so I went back to doing office work and now work as a university administrator - sweet hours and great money. And plenty of time to write articles on the side.

That said, newspapers do look for sub-editors - ever considered that?

jdivision · 24-06-2008 1:11pm

Dudess, you should try and get on Anna Livia if you're still interested in presenting. Good way into it.

Dudess · 24-06-2008 1:29pm

Yeah I got involved with them when I lived in Dublin, but I'm back in Cork now so Cork Campus Radio is an option - handy since I work in UCC.

yamo · 24-06-2008 4:12pm

In my experience, the best thing you can do is be open to writing for anyone. As someone else mentioned, sending in a portfolio is always a good start - along with one or two ideas for articles/features - just to show that you have an idea of what might make for a good story.

I basically wrote for anyone that would have me when I was in college - college papers, the Voice magazine (run by the USI) and any of the old free mags that were going back then (Dubfly etc) - I also did unpaid work for websites - mainly travel stuff, but occasional rambling features. Off the back of that, I managed to get regular gigs in the GAA magazine High Ball and In Dublin. I also did a few bits and pieces for the Herald and the Times.

When Newstalk started up, I went in and met them and basically volunteered myself for everything that was available, from reporting on GAA matches to researching the breakfast show. I even ended up doing a stint as a sound operator in there. While I was there, I was still writing away, and doing occasional bits of research for TV production companies. The trick is to make yourself invaluable, and you will progress from there. I ended up getting a gig as a producer/presenter in there within a few months. I've worked for loads of media organisations since then, and I now run my own company. It wasn't easy, but it was certainly good fun, and it was definitely worth it!

You just have to put yourself out there. When you're starting out, you really are only as good as your last idea, so coming up with fresh topics and angles is really, really important. Read as much as you can, develop an interest in a whole bunch of areas (generalists are much easier to hire than people who just want to be pol corrs/war corrs/music reviewers etc). And don't be afraid to get in touch with as many people as possible - from TV production companies to local papers and local radio. And develop a thick skin - people will ignore your emails and phone calls. They may even rubbish your ideas, but that's all part of a process that will make you a better journalist as time goes on. Also, make use of the contacts that you make. If you have an editor who thinks you're good, don't be afraid to ask him if he knows anyone that works in other publications/radio/tv stations who might be looking for freelancers. The media in Ireland is a pretty small group of people, so there are quite a lot of connections you can utilise.

Also, if you're going to freelance - find a mate who's an accountant. They come in pretty useful at certain pivotal moments during the year.....

tinkletoes · 24-06-2008 5:27pm

I myself have not got a degree in Journalism but in Business and Management but I am interested in becoming a reporter. I have applied to my local newspaper and was told that they would not take anyone on for work experience until September. In the meantime, I want to do some free lancing to build up my portfolio. Has anyone got any experience of freelancing and best approach to take?

flogen · 24-06-2008 6:04pm

tinkletoes wrote: »

I myself have not got a degree in Journalism but in Business and Management but I am interested in becoming a reporter. I have applied to my local newspaper and was told that they would not take anyone on for work experience until September. In the meantime, I want to do some free lancing to build up my portfolio. Has anyone got any experience of freelancing and best approach to take?

Think of ideas, pitch them to a relevant publication/editor. Simple as that, really.

Just make sure your ideas are fully formed and something fresh that hasn't been done anywhere else (at least not recently). Identify the publication(s) you think would be interested in the idea and identify the person to approach (so if it's a business story find out who the business editor is etc.). Put the idea to them, by phone or email, and see what they think. If you don't hear anything back within a reasonable amount of time, follow it up. If they reject it, try another place (while perhaps refining the idea to make it more appealing).

Lather rinse and repeat.

Don't get dis-heartened when you get rejected or ignored and once you get a commission make sure you deliver - otherwise your other ideas, no matter how good, will be rejected before they're even considered.

If you're not sure what is expected of you in terms of article structure just do some research (read a lot of newspapers/magazines) and look at what's getting published.

DublinWriter · 24-06-2008 6:44pm

jdivision wrote: »

Dudess, you should try and get on Anna Livia if you're still interested in presenting. Good way into it.

Or Near-FM.

There are always plenty of opportunities for subs because no one wants to do it, it's one of those unsung positions.

Dudess · 24-06-2008 7:53pm

I subbed for a while - hated it. And didn't get on great at it either because I was too meticulous (and thus, slow). I found it hard to come up with good headlines too - great ideas would come into my head the day after but not at the time I needed them. It's very tedious.
Actually I subbed some of Flogen's stuff...

santosubito · 24-06-2008 8:17pm

Dudess wrote: »

I subbed for a while - hated it. And didn't get on great at it either because I was too meticulous (and thus, slow). I found it hard to come up with good headlines too - great ideas would come into my head the day after but not at the time I needed them. It's very tedious.
Actually I subbed some of Flogen's stuff...

Was his stuff any good, then?

The fact that someone only recently out of college was subbing is, of course, another thread subject...

flogen · 24-06-2008 10:32pm

Dudess wrote: »

Actually I subbed some of Flogen's stuff...

Uh-oh... looks like I'll have to get the cheque book out again in order to keep my terrible secret under wraps!

Dudess · 24-06-2008 11:24pm

Somebody needs to learn how to use an apostrophe...

santosubito wrote: »

Was his stuff any good, then?

The fact that someone only recently out of college was subbing is, of course, another thread subject...

Oh absolutely. To be fair though, I had actually worked in the production departments - editorial and advertising - of a national newspaper for four years prior to doing the masters. I was only doing basic administrative work - e.g. inputting - but I gained a fairly significant understanding of the processes. But yeah, I remember veteran subs in there being utterly dismayed at the low standard of sub-editing and the way people were practically being taken in off the street to do subbing shifts. Back in their day, trainees would spend several years in the reading room, then they would be gradually introduced to actual sub-editing. Today, there aren't journalist apprenticeships like back then.
And now Independent Newspapers has outsourced its sub-editing staff to god knows where.

jdivision · 25-06-2008 12:17pm

Dudess wrote: »

And now Independent Newspapers has outsourced its sub-editing staff to god knows where.

Upstairs actually! And once the computers went down apparently and the outsourced staff just came in and sat down in the Indo!

flogen · 25-06-2008 12:34pm

jdivision wrote: »

Upstairs actually! And once the computers went down apparently and the outsourced staff just came in and sat down in the Indo!

They're in the same building now? They (RE&D) were based in Hanover Quay and there were rumours that a floor was being cleared in Independent House for them to be moved in there - didn't think it had happened, though.

jdivision · 25-06-2008 12:50pm

Think so, last year I think

Dudess · 25-06-2008 12:58pm

I applied for a job at RE&D and got it. I was advised to run, run, RUN!!!

monument · 25-06-2008 4:42pm

santosubito wrote: »

The fact that someone only recently out of college was subbing is, of course, another thread subject...

Comments like the above have been posted around these parts a number of times... maybe as if to imply subeditors can somehow go into the job fully trained?

Dudess · 25-06-2008 5:05pm

Well back in the day, there was rigorous training for a very long period. To be fair, this was when newspaper production was largely manual. But really, I know subs whose grammar and punctuation is so bad it blows my mind they haven't been fired. They ain't getting much money though...

santosubito · 25-06-2008 6:20pm

monument wrote: »

Comments like the above have been posted around these parts a number of times... maybe as if to imply subeditors can somehow go into the job fully trained?

Well, they should have experience before they go on the subs' desk. You can't really be suggesting that they should be subbing what reporters write without the necessary experience to spot mistakes, rewrite and, crucially, highlight any legals that may arise? All that, in my opinion, comes with experience.
It used to be that you got your experience - and made your mistakes - as a reporter before being elevated to the subs' desk. Sounds like a sgood system to me.

monument · 25-06-2008 6:30pm

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

santosubito · 25-06-2008 6:56pm

monument wrote: »

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

I have no idea - but I know that getting experience comes before going on the subs' desk. Subs have to correct what we write - how can they do this if they haven't the writing or reporting skills themselves? Yoiu simply cannot be a good sub without that experience.

jmcc · 25-06-2008 7:12pm

santosubito wrote: »

I have no idea - but I know that getting experience comes before going on the subs' desk. Subs have to correct what we write - how can they do this if they haven't the writing or reporting skills themselves? Yoiu [sic] simply cannot be a good sub without that experience.

Indeed.

Regards...jmcc

santosubito · 25-06-2008 10:39pm

Ah well.:D I didn't write that my copy didn't need subbing...

jdivision · 25-06-2008 11:06pm

santosubito wrote: »

I have no idea - but I know that getting experience comes before going on the subs' desk. Subs have to correct what we write - how can they do this if they haven't the writing or reporting skills themselves? Yoiu simply cannot be a good sub without that experience.

You can actually, many of the best subs I know have never worked as reporters. They went straight from journalism degrees into subbing because they knew they had the mindset for it. On the other hand some of the former reporters/editors I've seen become subs are terrible. Quality varies tremendously and I know some great ones and I know some where if I knew they were editing my copy I'd read it again afterwards to ensure they haven't filled it with inaccuracies.