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Government watching everything we do online !

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  • 29-02-2008 2:15pm
    #1
    christophicus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,969 ✭✭✭


    "By the end of March 2008, the Irish Government will begin mass digital surveillance, noting when we log on and log off the internet, as well as every email we send and who we send it to. We have entered into a new democratic state where our entire digital footprint is recorded and stored for up to two years by our internet service providers (ISPs)."

    http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single10383

    This must be being discussed somewhere on boards.ie ?? I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum etc.


Comments

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    #2
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Government, if you are reading this, your broadband policy stinks.


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    #3
    c - 13
    Registered Users Posts: 5,584 ✭✭✭c - 13


    Is that actually true or is it just scare mongering ?


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    #4
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Erm, isn't this been done since a few years back. T'was only 18 months at the time, so I don't see what all the fuss is about: it's as if it never happened before o0


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    #5
    gerky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭gerky


    Unfortunately this is true and while some company's have been doing this for a while this is a lot more intrusive than most people know.

    It will involve keeping track of when you go on the net,
    What sites you visit,
    What emails you send and who you send them to (not whats in the email),
    What emails you receive and who from (not whats in the email).
    Instant messages who your talking to and for how long,
    I think Voip is covered although I'm not sure,

    There's also rules for phones not sure if they are in place yet
    Who your ringing and texting,(also I think roughly where you are and where they are)
    How long your on the phone for,
    And who's ringing and texting you.

    There's other stuff for both I just can't think of them now.
    http://www.digitalrights.ie/ is a good site for info and keeping up to date.

    1984 here we come.


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    #6
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Some of this is impossible.


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    #7
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    1984 was NOT about the future.
    It and Animal Farm was the result of Orwell (who had been a communist) realising the already oppressive nature of many States, Not just Stalin's. 1984 is an allegory/parable, not a prophesy. 1984 and Animal Farm was to warn people about what had already arrived. Fahrenheit 451 OTH (Bradbury) was a warning of things to come. He was right too. Greatorex's 1999 (Made as TV series starring Edward Woodward) was a chilling portrayal of a future Conservative Like Police State in UK. He got one detail wrong, Labour running it.

    Also worth reading if you believe Web2.0 hype and that a Aborigine/Native American simpler society is the answer to all our ills (The Humanist ideal that we can be naturally good) and that Anarchy as a political system is possible, read "Lord of the Flies" (Golding). Those boys are full grown and running the Corporations.

    I'm not dogmatic about "Brave New World" (Huxley) was supposed to be Prophetic or Allegory / Parable.


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    #8
    gerky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭gerky


    I'm just putting up what I read about it , I'll admit that you know a lot more about the tech end of things but all of these are fairly easy to track are they not?even though it makes little sense as there's several ways around them.

    I wasn't referring to 1984 as a future tense world we are turning in it so much as I see these little steps against privacy bringing us a little closer to a similar kind of society to what was portrayed in the book, apologies if it came across different I tend to talk better then I write. :o


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    #9
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    watty wrote: »
    1984 was NOT about the future.

    regardless of what it's "supposed" to mean, it doesn't change what it "does" mean... nobody thinks Orwell was a prophet, but what they do see is his writings in 1984 slowly coming true in modern society. The number one thing that people are most shocked about from reading this book was how long ago it was written.

    In fairness i've been waiting for this to happen, the problem is the people who this law will target will be smart enough to find ways around it, the only people who will suffer will be the common internet user.


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    #10
    Nick_oliveri
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    Sure we are all either terrorists or suspects these days. Its a war we fight dont ya know.


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    #11
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sadly some people already had the "1984" society by the 1930s. That's what Orwell was writing about. We are maybe getting worse.

    Some of these things can be tracked and some can't be.


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    #12
    Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    L31mr0d wrote: »
    .. the problem is the people who this law will target will be smart enough to find ways around it, the only people who will suffer will be the common internet user.

    I don't think that's being fair. There has been case after case in the news in the past few years where (sometimes wannabe-)terrorists have acted like complete idiots in how they conduct themselves online.

    There will always be people who know how to bypass things like this, but they're in the minority and that's where the rest of the security services come in. The more idiots which are rumbled early on, the more time and resources which can be spent on a smaller group of people who know what they're doing.


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    #13
    gerky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭gerky


    I'm posting this straight from the directive,it actually covers more than I thought.
    Categories of data to be retained
    1. Member States shall ensure that the following categories of
    data are retained under this Directive:
    (a) data necessary to trace and identify the source of a
    communication:
    (1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile
    telephony:
    (i) the calling telephone number;
    (ii) the name and address of the subscriber or registered
    user;
    (2) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet
    telephony:
    (i) the user ID(s) allocated;
    (ii) the user ID and telephone number allocated to any
    communication entering the public telephone
    network;
    (iii) the name and address of the subscriber or registered
    user to whom an Internet Protocol (IP) address, user
    ID or telephone number was allocated at the time of
    the communication;
    (b) data necessary to identify the destination of a
    communication:
    (1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile
    telephony:
    (i) the number(s) dialled (the telephone number(s)
    called), and, in cases involving supplementary services
    such as call forwarding or call transfer, the
    number or numbers to which the call is routed;
    (ii) the name(s) and address(es) of the subscriber(s) or
    registered user(s);
    13.4.2006 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 105/57
    (2) concerning Internet e-mail and Internet telephony:
    (i) the user ID or telephone number of the intended
    recipient(s) of an Internet telephony call;
    (ii) the name(s) and address(es) of the subscriber(s) or
    registered user(s) and user ID of the intended recipient
    of the communication;
    (c) data necessary to identify the date, time and duration of a
    communication:
    (1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony,
    the date and time of the start and end of the
    communication;
    (2) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet
    telephony:
    (i) the date and time of the log-in and log-off of the
    Internet access service, based on a certain time zone,
    together with the IP address, whether dynamic or
    static, allocated by the Internet access service provider
    to a communication, and the user ID of the
    subscriber or registered user;
    (ii) the date and time of the log-in and log-off of the
    Internet e-mail service or Internet telephony service,
    based on a certain time zone;
    (d) data necessary to identify the type of communication:
    (1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony:
    the telephone service used;
    (2) concerning Internet e-mail and Internet telephony: the
    Internet service used;
    (e) data necessary to identify users’ communication equipment
    or what purports to be their equipment:
    (1) concerning fixed network telephony, the calling
    and called telephone numbers;
    (2) concerning mobile telephony:
    (i) the calling and called telephone numbers;
    (ii) the International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI)
    of the calling party;
    (iii) the International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI)
    of the calling party;
    (iv) the IMSI of the called party;
    (v) the IMEI of the called party;
    (vi) in the case of pre-paid anonymous services, the date
    and time of the initial activation of the service and
    the location label (Cell ID) from which the service
    was activated;
    (3) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet
    telephony:
    (i) the calling telephone number for dial-up access;
    (ii) the digital subscriber line (DSL) or other end point
    of the originator of the communication;
    (f) data necessary to identify the location of mobile communication
    equipment:
    (1) the location label (Cell ID) at the start of the
    communication;
    (2) data identifying the geographic location of cells by reference
    to their location labels (Cell ID) during the period
    for which communications data are retained.
    2. No data revealing the content of the communication may be
    retained pursuant to this Directive.

    (I edited this as I had only half the information included sorry about that)


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    #14
    boomslang
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭boomslang


    Someone is going to be buying a lot of HDD from PCworld haha.

    If you are doing nothing illegal then why worry.

    They probably do far more than that too!!


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    #15
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    boomslang wrote: »
    If you are doing nothing illegal then why worry.
    With enough data, they'll be able to see patterns. If they see a pattern, they may lock you up "to save you from yourself".


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    #16
    gerky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭gerky


    boomslang wrote: »
    Someone is going to be buying a lot of HDD from PCworld haha.

    If you are doing nothing illegal then why worry.

    They probably do far more than that too!!

    I don't support the argument (well if your not doing anything wrong) I'm guessing you wouldn't fancy someone following you everyday tracking what you do and who with.

    But the biggest worry is if this information falls in to the wrong hands as has already happened with several guards using information for their own personal uses,and information being given to insurance company's.

    To me this seems to be going against innocent until proved guilty, it seems to be saying we are going to keep this information on you on the off chance you might do something wrong in the future.


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    #17
    Random
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,082 ✭✭✭✭Random


    This **** is pretty bad already.

    I phoned up an old ISP to get some information on an old account of mine and they couldn't find it. They asked if I had the IP that I used back then. I was able to find this from old forum historys.

    I gave them the IP and they proceeded to list out the various people who have used the IP.

    Yay for data protection and stuff.


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    #18
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    i wouldn't wrry too much about all this as the Government are hardly able to provide basic services and infrastructure as it stands and the police do not even have a properly functioning computer system so it will be a long time before i will be worried about who i am in contact with!


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    #19
    PixelTrawler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,299 ✭✭✭PixelTrawler


    What I have seen printed on many occasions relates to email tracking, IM messages and when you log on and off the internet

    I havent seen it confirmed anywhere whether they will track the websites you visit and if is so, to what detail

    i.e. theres a big difference in recording

    www.boards.ie
    or
    www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=259
    or
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=55288929

    Urls can be extremely revealing...

    Also at the moment it seems the ISP's themselves are unclear of what to store and how to store it. I dont think the government have thought through at all how they will search and shift through what could be a massive amount of data

    However, whatever happens, this is both very invasive and worrying - and not just if you are up to no good.

    It could very easily reveal health issues you are researching or worried about, new business ideas, legal and financial advice you are seeking etc - it will reveal a huge amount about you. The arguement if you have nothing to hide you've nothing to fear is nonsense.
    You never know how this information could be accessed and misused against you in the future.

    The rules for the gardai to access such information seem very lax and there seems to be little awareness of how to protect the data. Frankly, its only a matter of time before theres a major cock up...


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    #20
    gerky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭gerky


    However, whatever happens, this is both very invasive and worrying - and not just if you are up to no good.

    It could very easily reveal health issues you are researching or worried about, new business ideas, legal and financial advice you are seeking etc - it will reveal a huge amount about you. The arguement if you have nothing to hide you've nothing to fear is nonsense.
    You never know how this information could be accessed and misused against you in the future.

    The rules for the gardai to access such information seem very lax and there seems to be little awareness of how to protect the data. Frankly, its only a matter of time before theres a major cock up...

    Thats pretty much my feelings on it also I not to happy that there wont be a court order needed to access it as I said already there has already been several cases of similar information being used for personal purposes by guards and others.

    I'd ask people who don't have any problem about this information being kept on them how do they feel that any guards they know let they be friends,family or just neighbors may without to much hassle be able to see what they do online or who they ring or text.


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    #21
    Nick_oliveri
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    Next they'll be monitoring real life conversations, why not?, they already own our phucking phone and internet conversations.


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    #22
    thund3rbird_
    Registered Users Posts: 866 ✭✭✭thund3rbird_


    check this out


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    #23
    boomslang
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭boomslang


    Of course you could encrypt your e-mails etc. Although this will look like you have something to hide. Could even get you a trip to Guantanamoland :eek: and an orange jump suit he he.

    On the face of it almost anything we do digitally is probably being filtered en-route to it's destination. We are being watched!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance


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    #24
    Duiske
    Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    gerky wrote: »
    There's also rules for phones not sure if they are in place yet
    Who your ringing and texting,(also I think roughly where you are and where they are)
    How long your on the phone for,
    And who's ringing and texting you.

    Surely all the info relating to mobile and fixed phone services is already kept for billing purposes ? The only thing that will change is the amount of time the info is kept for. And being able to tell where you make a mobile call from, and the location of the reciever, is old news. The Omagh bombers were tracked by cell id's all the way from Monaghan to Omagh, and more recently it was used in the O'reilly murder case.


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    #25
    buachaillbeoir
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭buachaillbeoir


    this is fantastic, its like were actually moving into a prison. i shall declare my land a republic unto itself, outside of the eu and browse peacefully............


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    #26
    mathias
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,174 ✭✭✭mathias


    All this is very similar to a trashy paperback I bought for a plane trip last week , its called the Traveller , its a sort of anti technology / Sci fi / mystical , work of fiction by a writer known only as John Twelve Hawks , and he lives " Off the grid " , meaning no credit cards or anything that can be tracked over the net , and has all that stuff about Echelon and Carnivore and all that woven into the plot ,

    Like I said , its a bit trashy , but some of the more paranoid on here will lap it up !!

    Myself , I dont think I do anything remotely interesting enough for anybody to be watching , so Im not too bothered , identity theft though , thats another thing.

    What has to be kept in mind though , is that if the Government or anybody else is storing or requires all that info to be stored , that doing anything useful with it is going to cost huge amounts of money and a lot of expertise , Data mining such a mountain of information takes time and some serious equipment , and our government is still wrapped up in finding out what Bertie did with his pocket money 20 years ago never mind whats going on now !!


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    #27
    gerky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭gerky


    Duiske wrote: »
    Surely all the info relating to mobile and fixed phone services is already kept for billing purposes ? The only thing that will change is the amount of time the info is kept for. And being able to tell where you make a mobile call from, and the location of the reciever, is old news. The Omagh bombers were tracked by cell id's all the way from Monaghan to Omagh, and more recently it was used in the O'reilly murder case.

    I think this goes beyond what they normally keep and the length of time they keep it.
    And apart from that its the fact that this is mixed with all the other info that will be kept is a huge invasion of privacy not least because there wont be a court order needed to access it and the potential it has for dangerous leaks.
    The systems already in place have been hugely abused by people with access to them so it will happen with this also.


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    #28
    BarryM
    Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭BarryM


    As usual with these kinds of discussions there is right and wrong.... Right that the present setup couldn't cope with the data flow, right that the 'authorities' couldn't collect/find/use the data anyway EXCEPT that they used the mobile phone stuff to catch O'Reilly, but the used the same source to 'scare' about the Afghanies in St Pats Cath. Wrong that 'if you've nothing to hide, etc' there are all sort of ****es out there who'd manufacture stuff, all sorts of chiselers who'd scam you, all kinds of abusers....

    My view - be very afraid, mostly because of the incompetence of 'the authorities'
    The hope - Digital Rights Ireland have a case coming in the High Court


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