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Disbelief or Hatred ?

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  • 13-02-2008 11:30am
    #1
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭


    How many people have arrived at Atheism not though a reasoned disbelief in a supreme being but rather through a hatred of a god they feel has let them down, leaving them to their only recourse of refusal to believe in god any more?


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    #2
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    Hagar wrote: »
    How many people have arrived at Atheism not though a reasoned disbelief in a supreme being but rather through a hatred of a god they feel has let them down, leaving them to their only recourse of refusal to believe in god any more?

    A little from column A, a little from column B. I think the latter leads to a feeling of the former to be honest, but thats not to say that the disbelief in a god isn't rational at the same time.


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    #3
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Hagar wrote: »
    How many people have arrived at Atheism not though a reasoned disbelief in a supreme being but rather through a hatred of a god they feel has let them down, leaving them to their only recourse of refusal to believe in god any more?

    Groan ... :rolleyes:

    If you hate God you obviously believe in him and therefore aren't an atheist. You can't hate something you don't believe exists.


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    #4
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I'm an atheist because the priest touched me.


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    #5
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Groan ... :rolleyes:

    If you hate God you obviously believe in him and therefore aren't an atheist. You can't hate something you don't believe exists.

    But what if you grow up believing in God, realise you've been dealt a sh*t hand and denounce "him", before becoming an Atheist...


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    #6
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Column A for me.
    I was young enough when I stopped believing so nothing happened in my young life for me to hate.


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    #7
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MrJoeSoap wrote: »
    But what if you grow up believing in God, realise you've been dealt a sh*t hand and denounce "him", before becoming an Atheist...
    What if what?

    You can't believe someone doesn't exist because you hate him. That makes no sense. To hate him you have to believe he exists.

    You can hate him and then later realise, for another reason, he doesn't exist. But the two beliefs are not, by definition connected. You are an atheist because of the other reason, what ever reason lead you to conclude he doesn't exist, not because of your original hatred.

    If someone said to me "I am an atheist because I hate and denounce God" I would explain that isn't what an atheist is.


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    #8
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hagar wrote: »
    How many people have arrived at Atheism not though a reasoned disbelief in a supreme being but rather through a hatred of a god they feel has let them down, leaving them to their only recourse of refusal to believe in god any more?
    Not me -- at some point, I realised that religious stories are a load of nonsense (skilled nonsense, but nonsense nonetheless).

    Arriving at atheism because of a hatred of god seems a weird way to go, since you'd have to accept the deity's existence before you could hate it.


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    #9
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    If you profess Atheism, ie the denial of the existence of god, what does it matter how you arrived at your belief if that belief is sincerely held?

    Side issue: If we all denied god, just flat out refused to believe in him, would he exist?


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    #10
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Hagar wrote: »
    Side issue: If we all denied god, just flat out refused to believe in him, would he exist?
    Would it matter ?


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    #11
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It's more of a case that the sh1t hand he has dealt so many other people is evidence of his non-existence.


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    #12
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    The OP really serves to remind us that some people just don't get what it is to not believe that god exists. And I've heard many Christians before claim that atheists are just angry at god. You could use the same reasoning to conclude that people don't believe in Santa because he didn't bring enough presents.


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    #13
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »
    The OP really serves to remind us that some people just don't get what it is to not believe that god exists.
    The OP does no such thing, thanks very much.

    I just posted a topic that came up in conversation with some friends and wondered what the good folks here would make of the argument. I never claimed it was my belief or thought process. Please keep your comments non-personal.


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    #14
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hagar wrote: »
    If you profess Atheism, ie the denial of the existence of god, what does it matter how you arrived at your belief if that belief is sincerely held?
    I don't "profess" atheism, any more than I "profess" my disbelief in the tooth fairy, or my kid "professes" a disbelief in the christian god(s), just the same as you probably did when you were a kid and before you presumably "became" a christian.

    Justifying some intellectual position by way of anger is irrational and useless. Is it wise or reasonable to deny the existence of blood pressure because my old man had a stroke?

    I arrived at a position of atheism by very simple, reasoned argument (and the dismissal of previously-held unreasonable arguments) and that tentative conclusion is therefore all the more credible because of it.

    I think you're looking at this from the wrong end of the telescope.


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    #15
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Hagar wrote: »
    If you profess Atheism, ie the denial of the existence of god, what does it matter how you arrived at your belief if that belief is sincerely held?

    Because as pointed out above it's very difficult to see how hatred of something can eventually get you to the opinion that it doesn't exist.

    Say I hate racism, it's almost impossible that I'm going to conclude that racism doesn't exist! no matter how much I hate it, so why is God any different?


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    #16
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    robindch wrote: »
    before you presumably "became" a christian.
    Thor will smith you for that one.

    As for the actual question I would imagine that a 'hatred' for god will not be the reason a person becomes an atheist but the reason a person rejects a given religion. But once the blinkers come off it becomes much easier to question and reject the simplistic ideals of a supreme being put forward by organised religions.


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    #17
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Hagar wrote: »
    If you profess Atheism, ie the denial of the existence of god, what does it matter how you arrived at your belief if that belief is sincerely held?
    Who said it did matter?
    Hagar wrote: »
    Side issue: If we all denied god, just flat out refused to believe in him, would he exist?
    You see your terminology is possibly people, including myself, have their backs up with regard to your posts.

    What do you mean "denial of the existence of God" or "refused to believe in him".

    Being an atheist is not an act of denial or refusal. You make it sound like atheism is an act of silly rebellion against what we deep down know to be true, that deep down we believe in God but refuse to accept that belief, for what ever reason.

    Now I'm saying that is what you meant, but possibly your choice of terminology could be clearer.


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    #18
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    You are quite correct, my terminology is imperfect and may be causing misunderstanding.
    What do you mean "denial of the existence of God" or "refused to believe in him".

    I can't find a better way to phrase it. Doesn't the word Atheism itself mean the negative of a belief in god? Isn't "Agnostic" literally without knowledge. Since both Atheism and Agnosticism seemingly can only be defined as a negative or lack of something else it's hardly fair to expect me to come up with something cleverer than denial or refusal.

    I did not intend to imply that Atheism is of itself an act of rebellion I'm just wondering how many people came to Atheism via that route? ie the forceful rejection of a previously held belief. Even the reasoned rejection of a belief system imposed upon a person in childhood may have had a triggering event?
    How many Atheists were always Atheists? Surely this implies some sort of rejection or denial. A lie can be denied or rejected just as easily as a truth.


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    #19
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Hagar wrote: »
    A lie can be denied or rejected just as easily as a truth.
    Good point. Though recently when people (say, Kelly1) talk about "rejection" of God, it is usually in the context that we believe, but choose to reject him. Hence the predictable knee-jerk reaction!


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    #20
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Thor will smith you for that one.
    Possibly, but I'm never quite sure how to refer to the acquisition of religious belief. Using "became" without the quotes indicates that you're buying into the false conceit that you can become one all-encompassing thing by believing one small thing. The longer and more accurate terms like "acquiring a belief" and so on detract from the point, hence the "become" appearing in quotes.

    It's not a judgement of any kind -- rather a hopeless attempt to avoid seeming to deliver one.


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    #21
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,154 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    For me I like to think it was almost entirely the logical/rational route (although i feel swarmy saying it like that). Going through a Christian education I'd keep hearing things about Christianity and think 'that makes no sense at all!' or 'how can that possibly tie in with X' etc.,

    For course that being said, even if god was proved to exist conclusively, he isn't a being I'd deem worthy of worship. Although I don't want to take this off topic.


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    #22
    Andy-Pandy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭Andy-Pandy


    Nothing happened, just figured it out through logic.


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    #23
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Column A for me.
    I was young enough when I stopped believing so nothing happened in my young life for me to hate.

    Ditto. I would hypothetically hate him, though, if he existed.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #24
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I could be described as an alatrist.

    Doubly plagiarising,
    Zillah


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    #25
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Shouldn't it be:

    Doubly plagiarisingly,
    Zillah

    ?

    Trying it out for myself...ingly,

    Dave


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    #26
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    Hagar wrote: »
    The OP does no such thing, thanks very much.

    I just posted a topic that came up in conversation with some friends and wondered what the good folks here would make of the argument. I never claimed it was my belief or thought process. Please keep your comments non-personal.

    I was referring more to the post than the poster, but I never meant anything personal.

    I have to say though that to ask if anyone arrived at atheism because of a hatred of god doesn't really make sense, given the definition of the word 'atheism'.


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    #27
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dades wrote: »
    Good point. Though recently when people (say, Kelly1) talk about "rejection" of God, it is usually in the context that we believe, but choose to reject him. Hence the predictable knee-jerk reaction!
    Not that again! I know you don't believe in God, that's abundantly clear!

    Would it be fair to say that you refuse to *seek* God purely on the basis that you don't believe in Him i.e. that you see no evidence for His existence? So therefore you refuse to take a leap of faith and try praying? Is that a reasonable statement?


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    #28
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Not that again! I know you don't believe in God, that's abundantly clear!

    Would it be fair to say that you refuse to *seek* God purely on the basis that you don't believe in Him i.e. that you see no evidence for His existence? So therefore you refuse to take a leap of faith and try praying? Is that a reasonable statement?

    yes
    that or tried it and it didnt work im sure


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    #29
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Andy-Pandy wrote: »
    Nothing happened, just figured it out through logic.
    Sorry but your logic is seriously flawed. As we all know you can't disprove God's existence.


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    #30
    stakey
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭stakey


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Sorry but your logic is seriously flawed. As we all know you can't disprove God's existence.

    If you want to talk logic then it's completely and utterly illogical to believe in a deity without a shred of evidence of that being existing. It is therefore logical to not believe in such a being.

    Oh, for some light humour... http://www.satireandcomment.com/0208toast.html


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    #31
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    stakey wrote: »
    If you want to talk logic then it's completely and utterly illogical to believe in a deity without a shred of evidence of that being existing. It is therefore logical to not believe in such a being.

    Oh, for some light humour... http://www.satireandcomment.com/0208toast.html
    You can't say there's no shred of evidence. Try reading any of the writings of the mystic saints and you'll see what I mean. They've had very real and profound experiences of God. But don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself. I'd be happy to offer suggestions.


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