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Observation of Opponents in MTT (Timing)

  • 12-02-2008 4:10pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭


    For an introduction to this piece i'm going to make a football analogy. Tottenham Hotspur have drawn Slavia Prague away in the next round of the Uefa Cup. To all intents and purposes, Slavia Prague represent an unknown opponent. As with most things in life, the unknown is potentially more difficult to deal with than the known. If i know it will rain tomorrow, i can have an umbrella ready. If i know my train leaves at 533pm i can make steps to get to Heuston Station on time. If im unsure of the weather i might get drenched, or if im not sure of my train time i might miss it. I might not do either but my level of certainty is far lower. However, sometimes knowing things can make it exponentially more difficult as the number of decisions you have increases with knowledge. I'll get back to that soon.

    Ok so Spurs are drawn away in Prague, apart from it being a lovely city what other information can they glean and how? Step 1: they send their chief scout to watch some Slavia matches. Observation. What formation do they play? what system? Step 2: Video analysis. They get as many videos of Slavia as possible. The goal is to find weaknesses in the side to try exploit. Does the left back have a weak right foot? Is the keeper prone to mistakes on crosses? Do their centre midfielders like to go forward or hold?

    Collation of this information turns Slavia Prague from an unknown opponent into a known opponent. This enables Juande Ramos, the Spurs coach, to formulate a strategy he feels will be productive against this side. This is good obviously, he has gone from a position of no information to a position of lots of information. However, the information in itself presents new challenges - he knows the Slavia left back is predominantly left footed and likes to overlap the left winger, how does he react to this? Does he advise the right back to usher him inside so he cant get crosses in, does he ask the right winger to drop deeper when they lose the ball, does he ask him to hold his position so they can counter-attack quickly? Knowledge is useful but it just adds more levels upon which to think on and implentation of this knowledge is still the key.

    Step 3. Awareness. Gus Poyet, the assistant coach is sitting in the stands during the game. After 25 mins he notices that when Slavia have a free kick or corner they are only leaving 2 at the back, so he gets word to the coach to leave 2 up top for a potential quick counter attack.

    When you sit down at a poker table for an mtt, generally you are faced with 8 unknown opponents. Sometimes you will encounter people you have played with before, and for that you draw upon your previous "scouting". For everyone else, a challenge facing the mtt player is to scout-in-running. Multi-tasking - playing your own game whilst observing 8 other 'games', often this is done simulataneously over multiple tables. It's a subliminal and conscious collation of information to try gain an advantage against your opponents. Our objective is identical to the Spurs coach - we want to gather, collate and assimilate information on opponents in order to make better, more well rounded decisions at the table.

    For the mtt player, software like pokertracker isn't as pertinent or useful as for the cash game player. Observation is the best weapon in our armoury, some things are easier than others to pick up on. When you see someone consistently overplay mid-pairs or weak holdings like KJo preflop, it's an easy one - you make a note mentally or write it down "overplays marginal holdings". If someone is sitting tight and only playing with massive holdings, again it's an easy note of "rock". If he raises a lot from LP or button, again it's an easier observation note "active LP, re-steal potential". These notes are used to help sway a decision one way or another in a hand against said opponent.

    Some other things are less easy to pick up on - Betting patterns, amounts, cbet frequency, preflop aggression, postflop aggression etc a lot of this will be collated on a subliminal level, a subconscious level and wont involve notes. I guess some of it can come under "feel". Getting an overall feel for a player involves your interpretation of so many snippets of information. Often this information is over an uber-short sample of hands and is unreliable, but it's all we have to work with.

    Gaining knowledge, reads, tells etc is good for the poker player, it increases our awareness of our opponents and increases our chances of making better decisions against them. The more we know about them, however, the more levels we have to think on and that presents challenges in itself.

    Ok so it brings me onto an extremely grey area:

    TIMING

    The question at hand is as follows: along with all your other snippets of information gleaned from an opponent, what relevance does the speed of his/her actions have? We are dealing with fractions here and it is open to massive debate. My contention is this - the speed at which an action is taken is something one should look at when faced with a decision, and can/could be partly used in your response.

    SUBJECTIVE

    Almost everything to do with this area is of a subjective nature. I could sit at a table for 4 hours with the same opponent who eventually pushes from C/O after a 15 second dwell and interpret this timing differently than someone else at the table who has sat there for the same period of time. It's almost fully subjective and it's not an exact science. Also a skilled opponent can use timing on metagame levels, deliberate delays/speed ups to try influence a call/fold/induce a raise etc.

    In general: On a subconcsious level we all observe the speed at which someone is playing on the table. Slow players are more noticeable as they usually wreck everyones head and stand out a mile. For other opponents, it's amazing how we can get a feel for their standard rhythm. Once that is established, you must ask yourself what a deviation from that rhythm means to you (if anything)?

    The majority of lay players, casual players, the fish pool, whatever you want to call it, they take ever so slightly longer over big hands. This is a sweeping generalisation but one that i've found holds true. (The opposite may hold true for others, hence the subjective nature of the area). When they see AA or KK either at low or big blinds, it's an extreme rarity to see any sort of insta-move, be it call or raise. They dont have the muscle memory of a lot of hands to call upon, so they need more time to think through their plan of action. Once i peg the rookies at my table, im always acutely aware when they take a little longer over hands and the range i put them on tightens considerably.

    For established players (rounders) with plenty of hands experience to draw upon, it's difficult to make generalised statements. One which i think holds relatively true a lot of the time: at high blinds, the quicker the shove from LP the wider the range. Most competent players will have decided even before UTG acts that if it folds to them they will shove their K8o from C/O, their decision is made. The more they delay the more it looks like an obvious steal to the average fish, so speed is important. They want to make it look decisive, no doubts. However this is conversely giving away the "strength" of their hand. Anyone with a premium hand here takes slightly longer than insta, because they dont have a pre-determined play in mind - it's always dependent on how the players before them act. Thus, while K8o is a predetermined shove-if-folded-around, AA has many possible courses of action. If there is a raise ahead of them, do they flat call, reraise, shove? All this means it takes slightly longer to react when it does fold to them - instead of a simple shove-steal the goal now is to try get some action on the premium hand, and this involves slightly more thought (and time). Slightly can equal a fraction of a second up to many seconds.

    For sharks, top class mtt players, timing tells are almost best ignored as the metagame involved is massive. Fake delays, fake insta's, TIME BANK tricks etc are all used with a massive range of holdings. It involves thinking on many levels to even guesstimate a range of hands for the time delay involved; so in my experience in situations like these against the best i let my cards speak for themselves.

    ADVICE


    My advice is as follows:

    For your own game - mix it up a little. I said earlier that subconsciously we are all aware of the speed of an opponents game, make that more difficult for them. Vary the speed of your actions. This will add a layer of unpreciability to your game which is never a bad thing. Once an opponent can pigeon hole you it makes you easier to play against.

    Work on your observation skills. It's almost impossible to be fully focussed on every hand when you have folded, especially when multi-tabling. In so far as possible be observant, keep your head on a swivel, it will serve you well in the long run.

    Observation of timing - Completely subjective. My advice is to be aware of it and to place your own importance on it. As in my football example, if the coach is aware of their system he can place his own relevance onto certain aspects of it and ignore others. Remember, the bottom line is a 10 second delay could be due to your opponent running back from the toilet, or being on the phone, or multitabling, or having an argument with the wife or anything. Timing tells have a range from 0-x% on relevance, x being somwhere below 100, and a lot of the time the relevance is 0%. The speed of someones actions should never be taken in isolation when making a decision. But if you can observe it and take it on board, and attribute your own meaning to it, it may be useful in deciding whether to call/fold/raise.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭DeadParrot


    Nice post man
    Some nice logical thinking there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    Great post Dan, so simple but something i'm sure a lot of people overlook, including myself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭robinblinds


    Comfortable 3-0 win for Slavia? ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭dannydiamond


    Nice post,fair play for taking the time...

    I have always been very aware of timing tells online and thus began thinking of how i was perceived in this regard,my "solution" was to nearly always take the same amount of time when acting against decent opponents,my thinking being that there is nothing to be learned if i always take 3 seconds to act.Against weaker opponents mix it up as you have suggested to send out the wrong signals where appropriate.Another thing worth a mention which i'm sure most experienced online players are already aware of is the very quick call.Against weak opponents this is invariably a draw or sometimes an underpair to the top card on the flop and i will almost always try to steal the turn in this spot of course presuming no draw fills the turn.

    R4D what's your take on a quick reraise of a continuation bet on the flop?

    I'm finding myself play back more and more to this which seems to be working.I find it's a case of having their minds made up before the flop is dealt as they may have called light strictly for this move,but this is only appropriate if i have been playing aggressively of course.....and as you said this is all very subjective and "feely"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,578 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    V interesting and useful read.

    Thanks again Dan.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭The Al Lad


    Fair play Dan your putting in alot of work here on this site, It's really appreciated considering the abuse you get off some people

    Cheers mate


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,750 ✭✭✭redzerdrog


    nice post!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    My advice is as follows:

    For your own game - mix it up a little. I said earlier that subconsciously we are all aware of the speed of an opponents game, make that more difficult for them. Vary the speed of your actions. This will add a layer of unpreciability to your game which is never a bad thing. Once an opponent can pigeon hole you it makes you easier to play against.

    Work on your observation skills. It's almost impossible to be fully focussed on every hand when you have folded, especially when multi-tabling. In so far as possible be observant, keep your head on a swivel, it will serve you well in the long run.

    Observation of timing - Completely subjective. My advice is to be aware of it and to place your own importance on it. As in my football example, if the coach is aware of their system he can place his own relevance onto certain aspects of it and ignore others. Remember, the bottom line is a 10 second delay could be due to your opponent running back from the toilet, or being on the phone, or multitabling, or having an argument with the wife or anything. Timing tells have a range from 0-x% on relevance, x being somwhere below 100, and a lot of the time the relevance is 0%. The speed of someones actions should never be taken in isolation when making a decision. But if you can observe it and take it on board, and attribute your own meaning to it, it may be useful in deciding whether to call/fold/raise.

    I don't really agree with this.

    As soon as you become very conscious of your own timing and decide to vary you rtiming to get the reaction you desire, you open yourself up to giving away information.

    The obvious solution is the same as with almost all poker tells including physical tells and bets sizing tells.

    You should NOT mix up your timing but be more consistent with it. If you delay a couple of seconds before every action how would anyone ever pick up a timing tell?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    A red flop, take 5 seconds. A black one take 10 seconds:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭Requiem4adream


    NickyOD wrote: »
    I don't really agree with this.

    As soon as you become very conscious of your own timing and decide to vary you rtiming to get the reaction you desire, you open yourself up to giving away information.

    The obvious solution is the same as with almost all poker tells including physical tells and bets sizing tells.

    You should NOT mix up your timing but be more consistent with it. If you delay a couple of seconds before every action how would anyone ever pick up a timing tell?

    Consistency is good yes, to an extent, if you take the same amount of time to raise with 72o as you do with AA or if you bet the same amount with either hand. Consistency on your behalf will result in giving off less tells but will dramatically reduce your ability to influence an opponents action. That last section i'm just talking about our ability to use timing to our benefit. I personally dont believe in consistent bet amounts or consistency in timing but i see where you're coming from.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭hotspur


    I was quite enjoying all that Spurs analogy :)
    It still amazes me how consistently an insta flop call is a flush draw on a double suited board.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,012 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Excellent. You should write a book. Sorry couldn't resist :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭bottom feeder


    niceone Dan, enjoyable read !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Flushdraw


    Dont be giving away all our secrets for the team event next weekend!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭dingle


    Of course sometimes timing tells just mean that your dog has broken out of the house or your daughter has just bitten your son.

    Read One of Fatboydim's earlier columns to get another view on online timing tells :)

    http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/community/collins-column/index.php?id=3


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭dannydiamond


    hotspur wrote: »
    It still amazes me how consistently an insta flop call is a flush draw on a double suited board.

    Yup,love it,that's why i like snap calling with flopped monsters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    As Dan as mention, timing tells can be used more against fish than better players. Good players will use the clock against weak players to get them to misread there action or confused them on there hand strenght.

    The most important point Dan makes here is at the end, take timing into consideration, but its only 10/15% of the reason you make that decision. Also, against good players, ignore it or bring that percentage down to 5%.

    2 Problems:

    1. Dan plays mostly on Stars, this has the best connection speeds out there and also as the use of a clock, so Timing tells happen more on this site in comparsion to Ipoker or some other sites.

    2. The other players connection, I've notice players having slow connections or connections that can go down a lot over a short space of time, you should be aware of this and not read it as a timing tell.

    I do use timing tells to let me know if a fish is on a draw etc, specially if he checks from oop. Otherwise, its use is very limited.

    Nice post Dan.

    Now do one on note taking which i think is more important along with Betting patterns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭strewelpeter


    hotspur wrote: »
    I was quite enjoying all that Spurs analogy :)
    It still amazes me how consistently an insta flop call is a flush draw on a double suited board.
    :D
    And the instashove that follows from the guy in the blinds is always 2pair.


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,855 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    I always use the dramatic online pause when deciding if my low wrap and 9 high flush draw is good on another table or when I am checking the football results. I am usually very consistent in this regard.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Be aware though that there are other factors involved in timing online. There are such things as "storms" on the internet. Packet Storms as they are called.
    Traffic reports here: http://www.internettrafficreport.com/
    and "weather" maps here: http://www.mundi.net/maps/maps_025/

    Like any chaotic system (real weather, city traffic etc), the routing of packets around the internet can suffer localised spikes and peaks. These can cause other spikes as everything backs up and "traffic jams" happen. This is why sometimes your browser will pause while downloading stuff or showing an image, and then kick in and continue (there are other reasons that can happen but this is one of them).

    ipoker seem to be located in a bad area of town and suffer from congestion more then most, but all sites can suffer from this to varying degrees. All websites in fact will, but its less noticeable in more "forgiving" applications like browsers.

    So, while the idea of timing tells is a good one, be aware that not all "pauses" are authentic as the internet may simply be backed up at that second....

    DeV.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭Russh


    Nice Post...Keep them coming please....

    Ollieboy wrote: »
    As Dan as mention, timing tells can be used more against fish than better players. Good players will use the clock against weak players to get them to misread there action or confused them on there hand strenght.

    The most important point Dan makes here is at the end, take timing into consideration, but its only 10/15% of the reason you make that decision. Also, against good players, ignore it or bring that percentage down to 5%.

    2 Problems:

    1. Dan plays mostly on Stars, this has the best connection speeds out there and also as the use of a clock, so Timing tells happen more on this site in comparsion to Ipoker or some other sites.

    2. The other players connection, I've notice players having slow connections or connections that can go down a lot over a short space of time, you should be aware of this and not read it as a timing tell.

    I do use timing tells to let me know if a fish is on a draw etc, specially if he checks from oop. Otherwise, its use is very limited.

    Nice post Dan.

    Now do one on note taking which i think is more important along with Betting patterns.
    .

    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    Coincidentally I had an article on online tells published by paddy power:

    Online Tells – It’s All in the Timing

    http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/poker-academy/poker-strategy/ps_onlinetells.php

    I didnt come up with the title, but I like it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭Ollieboy


    Coincidentally I had an article on online tells published by paddy power:

    Online Tells – It’s All in the Timing

    http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/poker-academy/poker-strategy/ps_onlinetells.php

    I didnt come up with the title, but I like it.


    yep nice article..Darragh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭Requiem4adream


    Coincidentally I had an article on online tells published by paddy power:

    Online Tells – It’s All in the Timing

    http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/poker-academy/poker-strategy/ps_onlinetells.php

    I didnt come up with the title, but I like it.

    Nice!

    Who'd have thunk it! Similar trains of thought! Maybe we're just peas in a pod deep down lol :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭smurph


    Nice!

    Who'd have thunk it! Similar trains of thought! Maybe we're just peas in a pod deep down lol :rolleyes:

    All together now "AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH"
    hugging.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Who the hell is Spurs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭cardshark202


    ntlbell wrote: »
    Who the hell is Spurs?

    lol


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    lol

    ban


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭jimbling


    nice post.
    I've been paying a lot of attention to timing tells for quite a while. There are difficulties, which everyone has mentioned, but overall it is def +ev to observe and use. The fishier the opponent the more you value your interpretation.
    HJ, I think it was your article that got me originally noting timing tells...

    R4D what's your take on a quick reraise of a continuation bet on the flop?

    I've been loving this at present. Especially the instantmin-raise.
    About 80% of the time Ill push back. I've been getting folds about 75%+
    Almost the opposite if there is any sort of delay before the min-raise though.

    R4D. I'd join the lads on requesting a note taking article.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 218 ✭✭CelticPhantom


    ntlbell wrote: »
    Who the hell is Spurs?
    Maybe this guy? Spurs??:confused:


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