Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

It's tough trying to be green in Ireland!

Options
  • 23-11-2007 10:27pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭


    I arrived at Dublin airport recently and rather than taking the intelligent (but un-green option) of getting a connecting flight to my destination (Cork), I decided to take the train instead. I had given up using the overcrowded, infrequent rail services in Ireland for the past few years – but decided to give the Irish Rail daytime hourly service a chance to redeem my faith in Irish public transport.

    Having shelled out about €30 for a taxi ride from the airport to Heuston, in a sub-standard taxi (dirty Toyota Corolla 1990s vintage, but pleasant taxi driver – as most are) (in the absence of a railway station at Dublin airport), I arrived at the station. In most other cities of a similar size, it would be a €3 to €5 train ride from airport to the station or better still the Cork train would start at Dublin airport and call at Heuston or Connolly station en route to Cork.

    At the station, I had only 20 minutes to spare before my train was due to depart so I made my way to a ticket machine to buy a one way, first class ticket to Cork. These ticket machines – which no doubt cost Irish Rail millions – only sell second class return tickets to Cork*. And they still don’t sell integrated tickets – (ie offering a destination option of “Cork + City bus” for an extra say €1, rather than only “Cork” – which means you have to waste time buying another bus ticket at the destination.) Or more likely use the option of a car – taxi, someone picking you up, or driving to/from the station if you have a car available to you. The integrated public transport option should be presented by default when making a ticket purchase.

    Irish Rail has separate machines to dispense tickets for people who have advance reservation – instead of combining the function of selling non-reserved and reserved seat tickets from the same machine like every other railway network operator in Europe.

    I was forced to line up at one of only two operational ticket sale windows – to buy my ticket – cost €68, (= 27.2 c/km – the equivalent 1cl fare in France on a Corail Theoz with soft leather seats and foot rests would be about €50). Irish Rail has to print two tickets – (a) the 2cl adult “single” voucher and (b) the 1st class “supplement”. Every other railway in Europe manages to issue a first class ticket in one ticket document.

    I made my way to the entrance to the platform, over which the matrix platform describer display sign said “Cork 11.00” to find the gate to the platform closed, eight minutes before the train was due to depart.

    My immediate thought was Irish Rail were trying to force people to arrive at the station an hour before departure of the train (as was necessary in the bad old days if one was to get a seat, before the government bought new rolling stock). So I pushed the gate and made my way to the first car of the train, followed by other passengers in the same plight. While there was no 1 cl on the door, looking through the window I could see the 2+1 seat configuration and assumed it was therefore a 1 cl car, as per the indication on my ticket.

    I was “greeted” by the train “receptionist” (a nasty b****, who would be better employed as a prison warden!) who demanded that I get off the train and get my ticket validated by another individual who was way down the platform – four or five cars away from the car I decided to occupy. Welcome to Irish Rail First Class! Arrogant, customer unfriendly. Impolite. Pig ignorant state monopoly.

    The ticket checker should have been standing at the start of the signed entrance to the platform so everyone passing could see the sign, and get their ticket validated en route to the train. (In most railway systems, this process is self service performed by at a machine – or doesn’t exist at all where there is 100% ticket checking on board the train anyway – as in the case of the Dublin-Cork train).

    Irish Rail – wasteful duplication of work. The matrix sign for the Cork train apparently was in the wrong place, and everybody is supposed to know that.

    Having returned to my seat, another scruffily attired ticket checker went through the car demanding tickets from everybody, without any form of greeting or politeness. When he was punching my two tickets for the second time in 5 minutes I asked him why the need for all this ticket checking bureaucracy. His gruff response was that “you will show me your ticket four or as many times as I demand it”. Welcome to Irish Rail First Class, again, again! Who is responsible for their staff training? Who is responsible for signposting at Heuston Station? Do government ministers and senior civil servants ever use the railway service?

    During the journey I went on a walkabout and in the car behind mine (which appeared to be a dumping ground for train rubbish – clearly visible behind glass doors), I could see approximately 5 large fire extinguishers thrown on the floor, standing loose, which weigh about 18 kg each. (Other railways that I am familiar with have extinguishers installed at standard positions in each car, strapped into position so they don’t turn into a flying missile in the event of a derailment or crash). I pointed the safety risk of this to the train receptionist and she claimed that the glass doors between the dump area and my compartment would not break if the steel cylinders hit them! My GPS indicated that the train was travelling at speeds of up to 164 km/h during the journey – and I have no doubt that if those heavy metal cylinders full of water and gas went flying in an accident situation, they would kill or seriously injure anyone in their path. While I didn't walk through the rest of the train, I wonder in retrospect if there are any fire extinguishers in the other compartments of the train - or are they all dumped on the floor of the rubbish car at the end of the train?

    Anyway Miss train receptionist kept harassing me from time to time – instead of letting me get on with my reading. No such thing as "voyage en toute tranquilite" on this baby. The first class seats on these trains are as hard as a rock – and quite uncomfortable. And the train’s suspension is hard like a racing car – which combined with the appalling condition of the tracks (permanent way in their lingo) – makes it challenging to drink a cup of coffee in these 2007 vintage Spanish boneshakers – especially around Co Kildare where the tracks are in particularly bad condition.

    A train journey should be restful and quiet. Low noise levels and a minimum vibration. Instead this late and expensive train is a boneshaker and the rude and arrogant railway staff working on it make one’s journey anything but pleasant. The laptop power socket on my seat wasn’t working, and the cloth seats (most railways now have leather seats in first class in modern rolling stock) are already showing signs of wear and stains.

    The only good point was that the toilet was spacious, and someone in a wheelchair would have no problem negotiating their way in and out of the cubicle.

    It is time to consider privatising the operation of rail services (not the rail network) in Ireland. Irish Rail is making a pigs ear of spending the additional capital resources made available to them out of the public purse.

    Let these people strike if they want to – we can fly in the meantime or stay stuck in traffic – while there is some oil left in the ground. These arrogant railway workers don’t deserve a job until they mend their manners and the system is run by someone who is service oriented.

    Is it any wonder that Ireland is so grid-locked and wedded to the car?

    .probe

    *The options available when buying a ticket on French railways (depending on train type) include:

    1) One way and round trip 1st and 2nd class
    2) Facing or your back to the direction of travel
    3) Solo seats when travelling on one’s own
    4) Duo seating for two people travelling together – with the choice of face to face or beside each other.
    5) If you are travelling on the same train as a business contact, if s/he tells you his car and seat number, you can enter these data and the system when making your reservation, and it puts all parties sitting together – despite the fact that they have made their reservations independently.
    6) Choice of upstairs or downstairs (in duplex trains)
    7) Window or corridor seat preferred?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    the rail system is not good however curious if any small island nation has a world class service.? the population density just isn't there to have frequent enough services. imo you would need to have single carriage trains leaving every 10 minutes.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭davejones


    Dirty taxis, dirty ticket checker, dirty uncomfortable seats on the train, fire extinguishers, badly displayed signs, rude and arrogant staff everywhere, complaining about the price of the ticket.

    Is there anything you don't complain about?:rolleyes:


    Next time get the plane.

    BTY shouldn't this be in commuting and transport.
    Its not really a green issue is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭wazzoraybelle


    I think public transportation is a green issue.

    The railservice in Ireland is an absolute disgrace, and is vastly overpriced, customer service is non existent, its dirty, is frequently overcrowded and cold and uncomfortable.

    Really there's nothing positive to say about it.

    If the public is expected to leave cars at home they need an alternative better than this one!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭Taildragon


    I agree that public transportation is a green issue.

    WRT .probe's comments on the public transport infrastructure in Ireland, I have to agree that it's very poor, but I've seen worse (though not in another 1st world country).

    I realise that some will find it grating to hear stories of how "It's so much better in <country of choice>, you should take a lesson from them".

    The truth is that Switzerland is a model of integrated transport. In a former employment I had reason to travel to Bern (the Swiss capital) on a fairly regular basis. Bern is much smaller than Zurich or Geneva, and has a small airport with very limited services.

    I discovered that the best way to travel to/from Bern was to fly to Zurich or Geneva and take the train. The integration was eye-opening; my (plane) ticket had a voucher for the train - which had a Swissair flight number! - my baggage was straight checked through to the train just as if I were catching a connecting flight. A short walk down to the basement of the terminal, and I was on the train platform.

    Ireland has a long way to go to achieve this level of sophistication in public transport. The re-development of the hundreds of branch lines that were abandoned during the 20th century would be a good start, I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tails142


    Bit unfair to comapre Irish Rail to the french network which is probably the best in the world.

    But valid points all the same...


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭octo


    silverharp wrote: »
    the population density just isn't there to have frequent enough services.

    Bang-on correct there. There aren't enough people within short distances of the train stations to make it pay. I live in Osaka, Japan, and the train service here is very crowded, but fast, clean and regular. That's because almost everyone lives in 5-10 story high-rises, and there's probably 10,000 people within a 10-minute walk from each station. If we want separate houses with front and back gardens like nearly everyone has in Ireland, then that American-style life comes with a heavy environmental pricetag.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    silverharp wrote: »
    the rail system is not good however curious if any small island nation has a world class service.? the population density just isn't there to have frequent enough services. imo you would need to have single carriage trains leaving every 10 minutes.

    I wasn’t complaining about the frequency of the service – an hourly train between Dublin and Cork is an acceptable frequency. My posting concerned the quality of the service, the quality of the seating and suspension in a new train system that cost millions, the rudeness and arrogance of the Irish Rail staff, the negligent signposting to the train, the waste of money on duplicate ticket machines, and most importantly the SAFETY issues regarding the fire extinguishers and the “potholed” quality of the track.

    If you were in one of those trains and it derailed and/or went on fire and you couldn’t get out or access a working fire extinguisher, or if a fire extinguisher hit you in the head flying through the compartment at 100 km/h – you might have a different view of reality, assuming you lived to tell the story.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Tails142 wrote: »
    Bit unfair to comapre Irish Rail to the french network which is probably the best in the world.

    But valid points all the same...

    I'm not expecting a TGV every hour between Dublin and Donegal. When Irish Rail spends several million on a self service ticket system, I expect it to be able to sell one-way as well as return tickets. I expect it to be able to sell tickets to every station in the country too. And on trains where 1st class is available, it should be able to sell 1st class tickets. Pretty basic stuff really.

    .probe


  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭maniac101


    OP, Assuming that you couldn't fly directly to Cork, you could have got the Aircoach. This is a bus service that would have taken you to the city centre. The same company then runs another bus to Cork from a street that's just a short walk away. This would have been the cheaper, greener and possibly quicker than the route you chose, and you could have avoided the CIE workers that you seem to despise.
    http://www.aircoach.ie/

    I wouldn't agree with the title of your thread. IMO, being "green" or respectful of the environment is about individuals making choices that take into account their impact on the environment. If the greenest option isn't available to you, then not taking it doesn't make you less green. Taking the train from Cork to Dublin doesn't make me less environmentally aware than a Frenchman travelling from Rennes to Paris on the TGV. Environmental awareness was something that most of our forefathers understood, but that we unlearned in the 20th century. For me, people are part of the environment, and respect for the environment implies a respect for fellow humans. Calling people names like "nasty b*****" on a website like this, where they've no opportunity to defend themselves, is not compatible with a healthy respect for the environment, in my book.


  • Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ceidefields


    If you're being so "environmentally conscious", why on earth would you pay for a taxi from the airport and then complain about it? The buses run every ten minutes from the airport to Heuston and at 9am, it only took me about 20 minutes to get to the train station on the airbus.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭lucyburn


    I totaly agree with you 'probe' the train service in Ireland is very poor when compared to other western nations.
    Rude staff,expensive tickets, dirty carraiges and seats (thats if you can find a seat)
    I have to travel by train most days but i wouldn't if i owned a car (sorry i know thats not being very green)

    The train service needs serious investment if the goverment want to get people out off their cars and use public transport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    If you're being so "environmentally conscious", why on earth would you pay for a taxi from the airport and then complain about it? The buses run every ten minutes from the airport to Heuston and at 9am, it only took me about 20 minutes to get to the train station on the airbus.
    Because I had to stop off briefly en route between the airport and station, and the A to B to C journey would have taken more time than I had available if I used Dublin’s awful bus “system”. Time is valuable to most people. Anyway a bus is not mainstream public transport in my books for airport connections. Bus is OK for short shuttle or getting one to a remote rural area.

    The idea of having to use a bus to get from an airport that has 20 million PAX per annum to one of the busiest railways stations in the country within the same city is third world stuff. The fact that I had to use a taxi is also third world stuff. Add to that the endless and polluting stop/go at traffic lights caused by Dublin’s antiquated and badly calibrated SCATS traffic light system en route – makes one want to minimise one’s involvement with such a chaotic area. Which is a pity really, and one would prefer if it was otherwise.

    The absence of an integrated (physically and informatically) electrified public transport system in Ireland is and will continue to cost the country dearly until it addresses the issue, and is the largest factor of competitive disadvantage that the country suffers in comparison with mainland European countries.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    lucyburn wrote: »
    I totaly agree with you 'probe' the train service in Ireland is very poor when compared to other western nations.
    Rude staff,expensive tickets, dirty carraiges and seats (thats if you can find a seat)
    I have to travel by train most days but i wouldn't if i owned a car (sorry i know thats not being very green)

    The train service needs serious investment if the goverment want to get people out off their cars and use public transport.

    Postings to the contrary smell of vested interest in the existing mess! Written by people who probably drive to/from work every day.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    maniac101 wrote: »
    OP, Assuming that you couldn't fly directly to Cork, you could have got the Aircoach. This is a bus service that would have taken you to the city centre. The same company then runs another bus to Cork from a street that's just a short walk away. This would have been the cheaper, greener and possibly quicker than the route you chose, and you could have avoided the CIE workers that you seem to despise.
    http://www.aircoach.ie/

    I wouldn't agree with the title of your thread. IMO, being "green" or respectful of the environment is about individuals making choices that take into account their impact on the environment. If the greenest option isn't available to you, then not taking it doesn't make you less green. Taking the train from Cork to Dublin doesn't make me less environmentally aware than a Frenchman travelling from Rennes to Paris on the TGV. Environmental awareness was something that most of our forefathers understood, but that we unlearned in the 20th century. For me, people are part of the environment, and respect for the environment implies a respect for fellow humans. Calling people names like "nasty b*****" on a website like this, where they've no opportunity to defend themselves, is not compatible with a healthy respect for the environment, in my book.

    There is nothing to stop Ms Nasty b***** from explaining her customer hostile behaviour here. I'm one of the people who pays her salary, along with a zillion others. If I was to hop on a plane tomorrow and go back to IRL, and take the 11h00 train from Dublin to Cork, would those fire extinguishers still be dumped where they were last week?

    .probe


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 37,485 Mod ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Really there's nothing positive to say about it.

    I commute by train every day. I almost never get a seat (despite trying to travel outside the /real/ peak hours 7.30am - 9.30am and 4.30pm - 6.30pm) but I don't care. I sit on the floor and I'm happy to do so. The train is on time > 95% of the time, I almost never deal with people employed by Irish rail and most importantly, I arrive into work / home relaxed.

    I used to drive the M50 to work. The train is an ENORMOUS improvement over it, despite having a longer commute now and sitting on the floor.

    To be fair though, it sounds like Probe got shafted. I just wanted to point out that every cloud has a silver lining. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Welcome back to the democratic republic of Bananas,
    I agree the train system leaves a lot to be desired, but I would rather have a sincere dose of sarcasm from a scruffy Irish conductor than a false smile and have a nice day, three bags full attitude, while they secretley W**k in the tea and spit in the sandwiches.

    The cork service sounds pretty decent to be honest, and any train I've gotten from Heuston has been okay, if not perfect.

    Try gettin a train to Longford and spending 3 hours broken down in killucan co. Westmeath, with no tea, no heating and a broken Jax.

    If the carriage behind you was full of rubbish, it was because some clot threw it all there, the turnaround time does not leave much room for collecting litter, important as it is. How about telling the next dirtbag you see spilling crisps on the floor and then firing the packet on the ground to pick up after himself instead of gettin chewy with the ticket inspector, who is not paid to care. I hope you sent a copy of your issues to CIE, at least if the letter is on file they will have a laugh, and possibly have a think about the queueing system in Heuston.....

    Its not really fair to compare CIE to any Swiss run system, as everything in that country, from the government down to the street cleaners works like clockwork. Remember, you're in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Welcome back to the democratic republic of Bananas,
    I agree the train system leaves a lot to be desired, but I would rather have a sincere dose of sarcasm from a scruffy Irish conductor than a false smile and have a nice day, three bags full attitude, while they secretley W**k in the tea and spit in the sandwiches.
    One could put up with a dose of sarcasm. Unfortunately both Irish Rail staff (ticket checker and “flight attendant”) in this case were downright arrogant and malevolent in their tone – I have never came across it before, anywhere. I’m not looking for the American “have a nice day” superficial approach. I simply expect the normal respect for the customer (one human being to another) that one gets on French, German, Swiss, Belgian, Dutch etc rail services. A basic professional approach to the job.

    I recognise that Ireland has culturally allowed itself to adopt the British class system, where a ticket checker or flight attendant is not regarded as a profession like a surgeon or accountant. In most continental countries, every job is a profession and people are trained and generally take pride in the work – irrespective of the job description. The German word “beruf” and the French word “profession” applies to every job. And public transport in Ireland (and Britain) is “designed” for an “underclass” - people who have no alternative option due to age, financial predicament, disability or because they are victims of traffic chaos and private transport is not an option for them.

    The Swiss have brought the public transport system to a level where it is used by all. Switzerland is one of the most “capitalist” countries in the world. Why did they take the public transport route? Because Switzerland is also the most intelligently run country on the planet. In the transport arena, they (a country with one of the highest levels of car ownership in the world) have recognised that the car can’t be used for every day commuting because they would end up with traffic chaos, pollution, more cancers, asthma and other illnesses. The Swiss as we all know have no natural resources to speak of - so everything they do must be internationally competitive. They can’t allow the sort of pig inefficient transport non-system that Dublin and much of the rest of Ireland has to put up with today. Call them fastidious, but methinks it is more to do with their direct democracy system, with lots of opportunities for the public to vote on issues every year.

    I was reading the December issue of the Spanish car mag “Autofacil” a few hours ago. There is an article on average traffic speeds in cities. Cities with good public transport have high urban average traffic speeds (eg Geneva 71 km/h – where it takes 6 mins to get from the airport to the city centre in a train, non-stop too). The city with the most awful public transport in Europe – London has the slowest average traffic speed of 19 km/h – despite the huge “fines” they impose on car users for driving in the centre. http://www.emmaclarke.com/media/7352/here-we-are-again.mp3
    http://www.emmaclarke.com/media/7156/residents-of-london.mp3

    Which city are Dublin’s public transport planners emulating? London of course. Complete with a “Northern Line” (metro) to the airport and a complex and needlessly expensive and technology delay laden smart card “integrated ticketing” “system” that is far from integrated or user-friendly.
    The cork service sounds pretty decent to be honest, and any train I've gotten from Heuston has been okay, if not perfect.

    Try gettin a train to Longford and spending 3 hours broken down in killucan co. Westmeath, with no tea, no heating and a broken Jax.
    If the carriage behind you was full of rubbish, it was because some clot threw it all there, the turnaround time does not leave much room for collecting litter, important as it is. How about telling the next dirtbag you see spilling crisps on the floor and then firing the packet on the ground to pick up after himself instead of gettin chewy with the ticket inspector, who is not paid to care. I hope you sent a copy of your issues to CIE, at least if the letter is on file they will have a laugh, and possibly have a think about the queueing system in Heuston.....
    If you haven’t seen it, read David MacWilliams article in the Indo the other day – the revolting reality of public transport in Ireland – hopefully as bad as it gets:

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/states-lack-of-respect-for-services-affects-us-all-1231775.html

    I’d give Irish Rail ***** for the design of the toilet in the Dublin-Cork train – better than a www.tgv.com or anything that www.sbb.ch have. And I’d give them **** for cleanliness of the toilet (ie almost Swiss). However if I had anything to do with health and safety, having seen the fire extinguishers as an example of their carelessness, I would shut the company down.
    Its not really fair to compare CIE to any Swiss run system, as everything in that country, from the government down to the street cleaners works like clockwork. Remember, you're in Ireland.
    Ireland will continue to have awful public services and awful infrastructure while the general public share the negative thinking that some people have posted to this thread. If one was in Zurich and waiting at a tram stop and the tram didn’t turn up exactly on time – I suspect that the average Irish person (who is used to the Swiss Travel System) would be looking at their watch and perhaps even pacing up and down. Why should it be any different when they are back in Ireland?

    Is there a “Welcome to Ireland – please note that you are in a second rate country inhabited and run by morons” banner message on display at Dublin airport, and at every bus stop and school classroom in Ireland that has brainwashed most people into accepting low quality public transport as a fait accompli that can’t and won’t be changed?

    .probe

    http://www.railteam.eu/en/high-speed-rail.php


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    probe wrote: »
    Why did they take the public transport route? Because Switzerland is also the most intelligently run country on the planet.

    With all that intelligence, you'd think they'd have integrated ticketing.....but no.

    Fortunately (for me), thats about the biggest flaw I can find in the system...and it doesn't even apply to me cause I have a GA (General Abonnement) which lets me ride pretty-much all public transport ticketless, paying a fixed monthly cost instead.
    Its not really fair to compare CIE to any Swiss run system, as everything in that country, from the government down to the street cleaners works like clockwork.

    So what you're saying is that its not fair to make a comparison because the Irish would lose?

    Why does that make it unfair?

    The Swiss figured out how to make it work. Of course you should compare yourself with them. Per capita, they travel more KM by rail than any other nation on the planet. Per capita, they travel more often by rail than any other nation on the planet.

    If you want to see how to do it right, they are exactly who you should compare to first. Then you look at people who have parts of their overall system better done than the Swiss.

    Its not about fair, its about figuring out how to do things better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭lostinsuperfunk


    Travelling from continental Europe to Cork I find the best option is to travel by train to the nearest airport that has a direct flight to Cork, even if it is a journey of hundreds of km. Better to do a train journey in France or Germany than to try to do it from Dublin airport to Cork. Paris CDG, Rome and especially Amsterdam have good rail connections. Even when there isn't a direct rail link to the airport it works out better this way because the continental public transport systems are usually better integrated.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Because Switzerland has had a public transport system in constant use and development for over 140 years.

    There was a time when Ireland had a rail network that connected most parts of the country, a tram system that serviced nearly all of Dublin.
    Unfortunately, we have a ridiculous history of destroying and abandoning such esentials as infrastructure. Harcourt St train station, which used to serve the south of the city, was sold, and eventually turned into a Nightclub, then, many years later realising their mistake, the government at great expense and inconvenience, did a u-turn, and built a tram system going straight past the same location.

    We have had a rising, a war of independence, a civil war, and a pointless bloody conflict since the swiss started developing their rail system. During all of these, the public transport network was considered a legitimate target.

    Switzerland also has a political system way in advance of anything the cute hoors over here have been able to muster.

    So in all honesty, we might as well compare ourselves with Jamaica, and pretend things aren't that bad.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Travelling from continental Europe to Cork I find the best option is to travel by train to the nearest airport that has a direct flight to Cork, even if it is a journey of hundreds of km. Better to do a train journey in France or Germany than to try to do it from Dublin airport to Cork. Paris CDG, Rome and especially Amsterdam have good rail connections. Even when there isn't a direct rail link to the airport it works out better this way because the continental public transport systems are usually better integrated.

    Probe does the same. The only reason I used Dublin airport on this occasion was that Aer Lingus planned a 4 hr baggage handling strike around the time I was making the reservation. I figured that it was better to put up with Dublin Airport using an airline other than Aer Lingus, and all that goes with it in terms of connectivity problems than to risk arriving at Cork airport on Aer Lingus and having to wait for four hours in the baggage hall for one's bag. There is no food in the baggage hall, very few seats, probably no internet access, no power points to keep one's PC going, etc. etc.

    Anyway this is a side issue - in a thread entitled "It's tough trying to be green IN Ireland!". No different to sending waste materials to China (at great energy cost) or buying carbon credits (aspirin) rather than sorting Irish public transport and building design out to be more eco-friendly. At least 70% of energy and related pollution comes from these two sectors in Ireland.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    bonkey wrote: »
    With all that intelligence, you'd think they'd have integrated ticketing.....but no.

    Fortunately (for me), thats about the biggest flaw I can find in the system...and it doesn't even apply to me cause I have a GA (General Abonnement) which lets me ride pretty-much all public transport ticketless, paying a fixed monthly cost instead.

    What is not integrated please? If you live there you use the AG/GA. If you are visiting for a few days you get a Tageskarte covering the zones you require. If you are travelling on a simple journey you can buy a ticket to cover the zones required and move from one mode to another on the same ticket. Many Swiss hotels give you a free tageskarte to use the public transport of the city free while you are a guest at the hotel. Both Swiss and Lufthansa give flight numbers to some trains so you can move from aircraft to train with interlined baggage seamlessly.

    Many more integrated ticket options here - http://www.zvv.ch/preise_06.asp

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
    Who is being paid "peanuts"? CIE group employees have some of the highest compensation packages for people working in the transport service business in Europe and probably the world - as have most other people working in the public sector in Ireland.

    Unfortunately the performance of the system is not related to the pay.

    .probe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Because Switzerland has had a public transport system in constant use and development for over 140 years.

    Ireland's rail map in 1906:
    http://der.probe.googlepages.com/ie_railmap_1906.jpg

    .probe


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    OK I'll bite.
    I arrived in Geneve Airport, had to pay exact fare in coins in swiss Francs to get a bus to Geneve Eaux Vives to get an onward international train. Obviously I didn't have the exact change and the driver feiced off so we got a taxi that stopped at about 20 sets of traffic lights to get us to the station.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭McSandwich


    I visited Copenhagen for the first time last year. On arrival at the airport, there were lots of announcements about a taxi strike, but no one seemed that bothered. I realised why when I was directed by friendly staff to the airport train terminal where I got on a comfortable train which brought me to the city centre within minutes (where I could've got on a connecting train to any part of Denmark).. The carriages were well designed with comfortable seating, safe comfortable standing areas, spacious luggage racks, and spaces for bicycles. The journey cost about €5 with options to buy from ticket machine or from the very helpful and friendly staff.

    Since then I've had similar positive experiences with rail transport in every other European city I've visited (including Vienna and Zürich). The population of Denmark is about the same as here, so no excuses for the gob****es running our public transport networks.

    [edit]
    One thing that amazes me: how can it cost less to fly from Dublin to Cork than get the train?
    [/edit]


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Look closely, If those lines that were there at that stage were still here now, it would be possible, in theory, to provide an east to west service, without having to get from station to station by "alternative transport". you could get a train from Cork to Belfast, from Dublin to Valentia Harbour, from Burtonport Donegal to Dublin.
    Granted those lines were never the best, or the safest, as crashes and derailments were frequent, but if 10% of the money that has been spent on roads to facilitate private sector transport had been spent on upgrading and maintaining that old network, instead of pulling it all up and allowing it to fall into ruin, It would be the making of the country, instead of its achilles heel.

    Tbo, I think, particularly in recent years, private transport has been favoured ahead of public for a number of very short sighted reasons:

    1) Govt. Revenue generated from private transport is considerably higher than that possible from public, between motor tax, fuel duty, insurance related tax, vehicle regestration, driver regulation, The system that is in place is a real money spinner.

    2) Development of the road network (principally Motorways) has been hugely subsidied by the EU under the direction of the National Roads Authority. This investment by Europe has not been matched by a similar amount in Rail development. It may be available, I'm not sure, but it certainly was never applied.

    3) Private Transport was favoured by the government because of its versatility, If you owned a car, you could go anywhere there was a road at your leisure. The planning Authorities allowed developers to build in many unsuitably serviced areas, where they got the opportunity to buy up land, develop a sizeable portion of it, and then leave no Public transport to the area, without CIE having to turn around years later and buy the land at extraordinary prices to build a station on. This has happened in a number of locations, primarily because sufficient space for a suitable facility was not insisted on as conditions for planning permission. (even though such a facility would increase the value of the property)

    4) NIMBYISM has been a major factor as we try to play catch-up, While the plans have been half-arsed in fairness, the people that stand to benefit even a little have been arriving at planning meetings with the poor mouth, looking for a hand-out, Usually not because they are concerned about the short sightedness of the project or its suitability as a solution to the transport problem, but because there lookin for some wedge.
    Tara is a clear example of that. If the landowners concerned had stood firm when the initial plan was put forward for the current N3 site, We would not be depending on the dedication of the Hippies currently trying to block it. In spite of all the fuss, nobody seems to have pointed out that a frequent fast rail service to Navan/Kells would alleviate most of the problems, There is a line there, Upgrade it, It'd be done by now and for less PUBLIC money. They only objected to the point where they felt they'd gotten enough dough, then let Dick Roche the giant jackass do the rest.

    There is, and always has been a car culture in Ireland, its not just a method of transport, its a status symbol, for that reason many people in this country really do view themselves as being above sitting on the train, Not so much along Dart routes, where the service is regular and reliable enough to make car transport to/from work an unattractive prospect (largely due to cost).

    Once you get outside Dublin, there is no transport link whatsoever around most towns, Galway has a city bus service, Athlone has a few knocking around, Mullingar has some sort of townlink, but to be realistic about it, the only way to get kids to school, shopping done, get to work etc. Is to take the car, And as many towns within a 50 mile radius of Dublin have become Satellite/Dormitory towns for a Dublin based workforce, Thousands upon Thousands of cars descend on the M50 every day trying to get around the city to their workplaces, to no avail, but as they have already invested in a car and insurance and tax, Its not feasible to pay for a season rail ticket to get to within a 20 minute bus journey from work for most people, so they drive. This takes away from the effective demand for rail service, so the government view it as a lower priority than the roads, so it gets less investment and becomes a less attractive option far people and it spirals into the situation you are highlighting now. We are all aware of the problems, most of us can figure out the reasons, but if you can tell me ten steps to turn it back, I will march into Dail Eireann myself and staple it to the tranport ministers head.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    OK I'll bite.
    I arrived in Geneve Airport, had to pay exact fare in coins in swiss Francs to get a bus to Geneve Eaux Vives to get an onward international train. Obviously I didn't have the exact change and the driver feiced off so we got a taxi that stopped at about 20 sets of traffic lights to get us to the station.
    Geneva bus and tram stop machines also take Euro coins as well as CASH cards. And if you want to use a Visa/MasterCard/Maestro etc, the ticket machines in the station (inside the door behind the bus stop) take cards and issue tickets valid on the Unireso (www.unireso.com) network (Geneva integrated travel system covering all modes of transport).

    It would have been better to get your ticket in the airport railway station for your ultimate destination and take the train to Geneve-Cornavin and transfer to Geneve-Eaux Vives station via Tram 16. Geneve-Eaux Vives station is really a French railway station situated in Geneva and not part of the Swiss rail network. The Republic of Geneva has only been a free country since 1815 - prior to that it was in the French Dept of Léman, which no longer exists.

    Best to plan one's journey in advance:

    www.tpg.ch


    .probe


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    McSandwich wrote: »
    I visited Copenhagen for the first time last year. On arrival at the airport, there were lots of announcements about a taxi strike, but no one seemed that bothered. I realised why when I was directed by friendly staff to the airport train terminal where I got on a comfortable train which brought me to the city centre within minutes (where I could've got on a connecting train to any part of Denmark).. The carriages were well designed with comfortable seating, safe comfortable standing areas, spacious luggage racks, and spaces for bicycles. The journey cost about €5 with options to buy from ticket machine or from the very helpful and friendly staff.

    Since then I've had similar positive experiences with rail transport in every other European city I've visited (including Vienna and Zürich). The population of Denmark is about the same as here, so no excuses for the gob****es running our public transport networks.
    Train is the default mode of surface connection from airports in most European cities because there are huge volumes of people transiting through airports and it makes business, logistical and green sense to plug them directly into the national rail system to complete their journey.

    [edit]
    One thing that amazes me: how can it cost less to fly from Dublin to Cork than get the train?
    [/edit][/quote]

    While you probably intended this as a rhetorical question (!) one has a choice of airlines on the DUB <> ORK route. Unfortunately not the same if you stupidly (like me) decide to avail of the Irish Rail monopoly. And worse still if you come across the blood pressure raising nasty crew that were on Irish Rail train nr. IC210 on 21.11.07!

    .probe


Advertisement