Happy birthday, Transport 21 - launched Nov 2005

Navan Junction · 27-10-2007 8:21pm #1

Well, it's that time of year again. No, not Halloween but the annual Transport 21 commemoration of the launch in November 2005.

Talk of Stephen's Green Grand Central and loads of Luas & Meto lines seems so long ago now.

Never mind the oft-promised railway to Navan.

Anyone like to reminisce about the joys and achievements of the past 2 years?

E92 · 27-10-2007 8:24pm

I would if there was something to be joyful about.

Hang on, the Fermoy bypass a brilliant stretch of road and beats the hell out of having to go through Fermoy, but the Motorways from Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway were all supposed to have been done by the end of last year well before under the NDP for 2000-2006 and not Transport 21, so that doesn't count I'm afraid.

1huge1 · 27-10-2007 8:36pm

Well the Limerick tunnel is making good progress, looks to be done ahead of scheadule, though im dissapointed by the amount of time its teking them to classify dual carriageways as motorways and make them 120km/hr

E92 · 27-10-2007 10:33pm

Well they *could* change all the DC's(or any road in fact) to 120, it doesn't have to be a Motorway to have a limit of 120. But they haven't bothered and those that tried were told to f**k off(Cork Co Co) by the NRA.

Still the N1 Dundalk-Border and N2 Ashbourne bypass have 120 limits.

Anyone know if the N11 Gorey bypass has a limit of 120?

1huge1 · 27-10-2007 11:16pm

Well I know they plan to have the Limerick south ring road changed, hopefully the Limerick city council will be a bit more welcoming than corks

E92 · 27-10-2007 11:35pm

It was the NRA(National Roads Authority) that said Cork Co Co couldn't change the limits to 120 - nothing to do with with the City Council.

Why they thought the people of the border Counties and Ashbourne were somehow more deserving of 120 limits on N roads than Cork people were is a mystery to me.

Poxyshamrock · 28-10-2007 12:44am

Well we got the new mark IV train on the Cork-Dublin line.
The 22000 class are nearly ready to "roll-out" at this stage.
Limerick got new buses (very comfy and graffiti-free)
Limerick Tunnel making good progress
and the extension of the LUAS line from Connolly to the Point is making fantastic progress!

Zoney · 28-10-2007 9:42am

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Limerick got new buses (very comfy and graffiti-free)

Saw one of those - they look nice. A pity they'll mostly be sitting still in traffic - a problem that will be worse than ever with the new hotels, shopping centres, etc. that the county council has deemed perfectly reasonable to plonk by the already congested arterial routes like the Dublin Road.

invincibleirish · 28-10-2007 5:49pm

well the midleton line was announced nearly 2yrs before T21 was,2yrs on and its gonna be another year or two before it opens (apparently) 4/5 yrs to refurbish something like 11km of single track between glouthane-midleton and build a couple of new stations.good grief!

also if im not mistaken T21 promised new stations on the mallow-kent route, dont think anythings been heard about that sense

T21 longfingered north ring road for cork, new N20 DC and the new N28 DC and bandon & sarsfield rd flyovers,but hey at least we are now able to get to Dublin faster!(i drive it ooh once a year),meanwhile those queues of traffic stretching from the bandon rd. roundabout back to the kinsale flyover and from mahon to the tunnel grow ever longer

oh wait cork got some new buses this year,double deckers also promised havent seen any yet

Cionnfhaolaidh · 28-10-2007 10:00pm

Luas to Cherrywood making good progress. The bridge across the M50 is under construction and the viaduct over Cherrywood appeared almost overnight.

E92 · 29-10-2007 12:10am

invincibleirish wrote: »

well the midleton line was announced nearly 2yrs before T21 was,2yrs on and its gonna be another year or two before it opens (apparently) 4/5 yrs to refurbish something like 11km of single track between glouthane-midleton and build a couple of new stations.good grief!

also if im not mistaken T21 promised new stations on the mallow-kent route, dont think anythings been heard about that sense

T21 longfingered north ring road for cork, new N20 DC and the new N28 DC and bandon & sarsfield rd flyovers,but hey at least we are now able to get to Dublin faster!(i drive it ooh once a year),meanwhile those queues of traffic stretching from the bandon rd. roundabout back to the kinsale flyover and from mahon to the tunnel grow ever longer oh wait cork got some new buses this year,double deckers also promised havent seen any yet

We've been seriously screwed down here in Cork under Transport 21.

Those flyovers were promised years ago, but have been put back for ages. The Kinsale flyover shows exactly why the other 2 need to be done so quickly, because it is so good.

Soon enough we will have a Motorway all the way to dublin, but at the moment we've just 11 miles of one on the M8. Overall we have 21 miles of good road from Cork to Dublin(at the Cork end, once you hit the Motorway in Port Laoise, there is 50+ continuous miles of proper standard road), that is slowly changing, but like the last bit of the Motorway(if Noel Dempsy has decided to call them a Motorway by then) from Cork to Dublin will be the bit from Fermoy to Mitschelstown.

The road from Cork to Waterford is rubbish(for a road connecting the 2nd biggest city to the 5th biggest) once you get beyond Midelton(apart from the Youghal bypass), there doesn't seem to be much planned there for another good while AFAIK.

Similarly Cork to Limerick is an absolute disgrace, no sign of any Motorway coming down the tracks. The only bits of good road are Cork-Mallow, and once you get onto the Motorway standard road a bit after Croom(well the Croom bypass is a good standard road but its only a single carriageway like the bit from Blarney-Mallow with the exception of the 2+1 bits a few miles outside of Mallow).

Not to mention the road to Tralee, once you get a few miles beyond the Ballincollig bypass(another road that should be called a Motorway, its better than some of the Motorways in the country), its not great till you come out the Kerry side of Ballyvourney, where from there to Killarney its fine, then there is a bad stretch about half the way to Tralee(can't remember which half at the mo!), in fairness the other half is a very good road for the type of road it is though.

If we have a comparison with Limerick, we see that soon Limerick will have a Motorway to Dublin(like Cork), but unlike Cork they will soon have very good roads connecting themselves to everywhere else bar Cork, there is a DC all the way to Ennis, there is a Motorway standard road being built the rest of the way to Galway, to Tralee the road is very good overall bar bits outside Newcastlewest, and although the bits of Limerick-Waterford I've done anytime recently were shambolic, theat is all being upgraded soon AFAIK.

Cork was promised double decker buses before the election(I know this because somebody told me here on boards several months ago well before the election), the only ones I see are the Park and Ride ones(which have been there for a few years now I think), I don't see normal routes having them. There probably won't be any now, yet they'll try to tell us that we all should be using public transport(well people might but I've travelled on the number 8 and 5 going to/from UCC and they were full at 11 in the morning, if they are full at that hour of the day, imagine what they are like in the evenings).

Bards · 29-10-2007 10:38am

E92 wrote: »

We've been seriously screwed down here in Cork under Transport 21.

Those flyovers were promised years ago, but have been put back for ages. The Kinsale flyover shows exactly why the other 2 need to be done so quickly, because it is so good.

Soon enough we will have a Motorway all the way to dublin, but at the moment we've just 11 miles of one on the M8. Overall we have 21 miles of good road from Cork to Dublin(at the Cork end, once you hit the Motorway in Port Laoise, there is 50+ continuous miles of proper standard road), that is slowly changing, but like the last bit of the Motorway(if Noel Dempsy has decided to call them a Motorway by then) from Cork to Dublin will be the bit from Fermoy to Mitschelstown.

The road from Cork to Waterford is rubbish(for a road connecting the 2nd biggest city to the 5th biggest) once you get beyond Midelton(apart from the Youghal bypass), there doesn't seem to be much planned there for another good while AFAIK.

Similarly Cork to Limerick is an absolute disgrace, no sign of any Motorway coming down the tracks. The only bits of good road are Cork-Mallow, and once you get onto the Motorway standard road a bit after Croom(well the Croom bypass is a good standard road but its only a single carriageway like the bit from Blarney-Mallow with the exception of the 2+1 bits a few miles outside of Mallow).

Not to mention the road to Tralee, once you get a few miles beyond the Ballincollig bypass(another road that should be called a Motorway, its better than some of the Motorways in the country), its not great till you come out the Kerry side of Ballyvourney, where from there to Killarney its fine, then there is a bad stretch about half the way to Tralee(can't remember which half at the mo!), in fairness the other half is a very good road for the type of road it is though.

If we have a comparison with Limerick, we see that soon Limerick will have a Motorway to Dublin(like Cork), but unlike Cork they will soon have very good roads connecting themselves to everywhere else bar Cork, there is a DC all the way to Ennis, there is a Motorway standard road being built the rest of the way to Galway, to Tralee the road is very good overall bar bits outside Newcastlewest, and although the bits of Limerick-Waterford I've done anytime recently were shambolic, theat is all being upgraded soon AFAIK.

Cork was promised double decker buses before the election(I know this because somebody told me here on boards several months ago well before the election), the only ones I see are the Park and Ride ones(which have been there for a few years now I think), I don't see normal routes having them. There probably won't be any now, yet they'll try to tell us that we all should be using public transport(well people might but I've travelled on the number 8 and 5 going to/from UCC and they were full at 11 in the morning, if they are full at that hour of the day, imagine what they are like in the evenings).

I'm from Waterford and Cork has done vefry, very well on the roads front over the past few years in my opinion. Jack Lynch Tunnel - not tolled whereas the Waterford's only 2nd Bridge will be tolled as will the Limerick Tunnel.

Cork has got the Kinsale Flyover, Waterford have the equivalent of the majic roundabout outside the Railway Station linking N25,N9/N24 and City traffic comming together at an at-grade roundabout.

Listen to the AA any morning and evenening and you will hear about the Ferrybank (N25) and Sallypark (N9/N24) being backed up. OK the new bypass will take some of this traffic away but it will still be mental as Waterford expands attracting more and more traffic into the City.

Cork got propper rolling stock between Cork & Dublin while everyone else is getting Railcars - a cheaper alternative.

Roads from Waterford to everywhere else is crap at the moment. only road that will be good will be the new motorway to Dublin. We really need the N24 to be upgraded soon and will link Waterford to Limerick and on to Galway and the West.

I would much rather to have Cork's problems than Waterford's

Zoney · 29-10-2007 11:52am

Bards wrote: »

We really need the N24 to be upgraded soon and will link Waterford to Limerick and on to Galway and the West.

The N24 really does need attention, considering that apart from linking up Limerick and Waterford it serves Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Cahir and Tipp Town.

However, the N20 needs upgraded sooner - to have a narrow winding S2 road in places connecting Limerick to Cork is far more absurd.

The problem is that the other absurdities, like narrow S2 on the N6, N7, N8 and N9 in places, haven't been done away with by 2006 like they were supposed to have been. If they had been, the concentration could now be on other routes.

At this stage, there are other projects cropping up now too - the M7 is at capacity from the end of the upgraded N7 Naas Road to the junction with the M9. That section needs a third lane - that should in fact have been in place by this year if capacity was being provided in advance.

E92 · 29-10-2007 12:40pm

The M7 needs 3 lanes as far as Portlaoise I think. I've gone up to Dublin at 6 in the morning on a Saturday at the most you can do on the M7 is 80 km/h once you reach county Kildare, and just before the bit where it goes to 3 lanes its nearly at urban speeds. If its like that at a weekend I hate to think what it is like during the week.

But I'd rather they work on the rest of the M8/N8 before they do that.

They really need to do Limerick-Cork though(and could they do a proper job i.e Motorway standard and 120 km/h limits).

Chris_533976 · 29-10-2007 12:56pm

And having seen the current plans for the grade separation of Bandon and Sarsfield, its not a simple "Build Flyovers", its a huge project with a myriad of lanes. I understand that it should be done soon, but as it stands all it causes is a traffic jam - I'd rather have a traffic jam there for a bit longer and fix interurban elements that are effectively death-traps due to narrow roads with no hard shoulder and no overtaking opportunities.

Edit: That said, schemes like Fermoy - Mitchelstown, that has decent wide enough roads as it stands, should be left until schemes like the N20 Mallow - Croom are done. Prioritize them by actual need, not by political need.

murphaph · 29-10-2007 1:33pm

E92 wrote: »

The M7 needs 3 lanes as far as Portlaoise I think. I've gone up to Dublin at 6 in the morning on a Saturday at the most you can do on the M7 is 80 km/h once you reach county Kildare, and just before the bit where it goes to 3 lanes its nearly at urban speeds.

That's mostly down to crap driving. If everyone kept left unless overtaking there's no way you'd be travelling at such low speeds. Take a look at the upgraded bit of N7 anyway-same muppetry only now we've muppets hogging the two outside lanes instead of just one. Completely inefficient use of the available roadspace.

The M7 may need widening as far as the M9 diverge especially when the M9 actually reaches Waterford, but no further right now.

I'd say Cork has done fairly well on the roads front compared to other places of similar size but it has appaling public transport. How many yards of bus lane does Cork have, nevermind QBC boy?

Chris_533976 · 29-10-2007 2:20pm

Corks worst problem is that some of its bus lanes are rush hour only.

Of course every single person who is (legally) parked in the bus lane during the day moves their car during rush hour.....

E92 · 29-10-2007 8:00pm

Our Bus Lanes are 7:30-9:30 and 4:30-6:30, Monday-Friday only. Apart from the contra flow ones. At least thats what the City Council says anyway.

I actually see most people not driving in them though outside of these hours too.

And the N8 Fermoy - Mitchelstown at present is an accident blackspot on some parts AFAIK, so that really needs to be done~(just as well its at tender then).

Navan Junction · 31-10-2007 12:01am

All dates given for this were before end of October.

Anyway, I'm sure it come out at some point.

Xyndrix · 31-10-2007 8:32pm

Navan Junction wrote: »

All dates given for this were before end of October.

Anyway, I'm sure it come out at some point.

It's important to get maximum 'delay value' out of this study. Probably stretch it out till January now. Still, I suppose it's not so much when it comes out as what it contains. If it finally puts an end to the Ashbourne/Ratoath nonsense then it will have been worth the wait.

invincibleirish · 04-11-2007 9:23pm

Almost all Transport 21 plans delayed

04 November 2007 By Pat Leahy, Political Correspondent
Almost every transport project due to be completed before 2010 under the government’s €34 billion Transport 21 plan is either already late or is expected to miss its original completion date.

Two years after the plan was announced by then transport minister Martin Cullen in 2005, documents released by the Department of Transport show that the targets for completing many projects have either not been met or are expected to be at least a year late.

At the launch of Transport 21 and for some time afterwards, the government’s catchphrase was ‘‘on time and on budget’’. However, while the true cost of the plan cannot yet be assessed, it is clear that the various elements of the plan will not be completed on time.

Revised schedules -many of which officials concede will be postponed again in the future - show that most projects scheduled to be completed this year are not expected to be finished until next year. Projects once expected to be completed in 2008 are now being given 2009 and 2010 completion dates.

The Department of Transport has also conceded that there is no operable date for a joining of the two Luas lines in Dublin city centre, following concerns expressed by Dublin Bus about the impact on bus traffic. The link-up was due to be finished next year.

Other projects which have slipped off the list of expected completions next year include Luas extensions to the Docklands and to Citywest in Dublin, and the Cork-Midleton commuter rail service.

The completion dates for many phases of the proposed Metro lines are being revised, although the department insists that they will all be completed by 2013 or 2014.

Most projects which have post-2010 completion dates are still expected to be on time, officials say. A statement issued by the Department of Transport explained that the original timetable was ‘‘designed to set challenging targets for the agencies’’.

‘‘Final completion dates for projects will only be determined when the planning process and contract negotiations have been concluded,” the department says.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=28012-qqqx=1.asp

i highlight the cork midleton piece in particular,this project was announced in the spring of 2004,now its looking like 2009 before it opens,5 years to reopen 10km of single track,get a few railcars and build a couple of stations.ridiculous.

thebman · 05-11-2007 1:20pm

lol, I knew this would be in this thread as I saw it in a newspaper when getting breakfast this morning.

Do we need any more evidence that this government (although this could be changed to include almost any Irish government) doesn't take infrastructure seriously?

Between the road, rail and communications networks, we are the laughing stock of Europe and that's been kind as I'm sure there are plenty of places further away with less money and better infastructure.

Why can't our government get even the basics right? Its not enough to write a plan (at a stupidly high cost), your supposed to follow the bloody plan!

I'm guessing Maynooth will be a dart line in the year 2100, maybe at this rate.

loyatemu · 05-11-2007 1:24pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

The Department of Transport has also conceded that there is no operable date for a joining of the two Luas lines in Dublin city centre, following concerns expressed by Dublin Bus about the impact on bus traffic. The link-up was due to be finished next year.

I strongly expect this project to be dropped - while it does have merit, it also duplicates the route of the Metro and has to be a strong candidate for the chop (possibly with with the funds obstensibly diverted to accelerating delivery of the Interconnector).

jank · 05-11-2007 2:42pm

Transport 21?
Why not call it dublin 21 as it does **** all for the rest of the country

Navan Junction · 05-11-2007 3:13pm

jank wrote: »

Transport 21?
Why not call it dublin 21 as it does **** all for the rest of the country

Not doing much for Dublin either by the looks of it

bk · 05-11-2007 3:18pm

I read about this in the SBP yesterday and to be honest I think it is slightly blown out of proportion.

The SBP article title screamed "Almost all Transport 21 plans delayed", yet then further down in the article it admits that nearly all the road projects are in fact on schedule and on budget and in fact many are far ahead of schedule.

It mentions the docklands extension being behind schedule, from what I've seen the docklands extension is flying along, it may end up being 6 months behind schedule, but no major deal.

I don't know about the Citywest in Dublin, and the Cork-Midleton commuter rail service.

The article also overlooks the Docklands station, that came in well ahead of schedule.

I'm not at all surprised about the Luas link up, it was always going to be controversial and DB were always going to fight it tooth and nail. The government should give both DB and the RPA are strong kick up the arse. While it does replicate the Metro North route and not strictly needed, it is important to allow the luas to be continued further north of the city.

The most important thing is that Metro North and DART underground remain on schedule, I worry that I've seen little activity on these.

bk · 05-11-2007 3:20pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I strongly expect this project to be dropped - while it does have merit, it also duplicates the route of the Metro and has to be a strong candidate for the chop (possibly with with the funds obstensibly diverted to accelerating delivery of the Interconnector).

Not a change, funds might get redirected to Metro North or West, both being RPA projects, but there is no way the RPA would give up funding to CIE.

loyatemu · 05-11-2007 4:14pm

the RPA get their funds from the government - the money for line BX is not sitting in the RPA's bank account

strassenwolf · 06-11-2007 6:04pm

There was also another article in the Business Post about this:

Sunday Business Post wrote:

Major Transport 21 plans dogged by delays
04 November 2007 By Pat Leahy, Political Correspondent
Two years after the government announced its €34 billion Transport 21 plan in a blaze of publicity, almost every major new transport project that was due to be completed between 2006 and 2009 is either late or expected to miss its completion date.

Examination of the original Transport 21 documentation, as well as internal Department of Transport briefing material secured under the Freedom of Information Act, shows that the original completion dates were either optimistic or unrealistic in nearly all cases.

Revised completion dates for a number of major projects supplied by the Department of Transport show that most projects due for completion in 2008 are now not expected to finish until 2009 or 2010.Most 2009 projects have become 2010 projects, and the department admits that further adjustments to completion dates are likely.

Projects whose estimated completed dates have moved back from next year to the year after include the Luas extension from Connolly station to the Dublin docklands, and the Cork commuter rail service to Midleton. The Luas extension from Tallaght to Citywest, the M3 motorway, the Navan Rail link are now due for completion in 2010, not 2008.

There is now no revised date for linking the two Luas lines in the city centre - Dublin Bus is concerned about the impact of construction on bus services - while all phases of the Metro have seen their completion dates extended. The current date for completion of the Metro to the airport is 2013.

Projects which were due for completion this year include the Portlaoise train depot, the delivery of new railcars, the M1 motorway upgrade and the M50 upgrade phase one.

Portlaoise is now expected to be completed next year, while phase one of the M50 will not be finished until late next year. No new railcars are yet in service, although the department says the first of them will enter service in the coming weeks. The M1 upgrade has been completed.

The government’s record is best in road construction. A significant number of road projects have been completed ahead of schedule and on budget in recent years, such as the N8 Rathcormac to Fermoy motorway project - it was completed eight months ahead of schedule.

However, this comes after spending in the 1999-2002 period exceeded original estimates by more than 100 per cent. Many of the new road projects were also commissioned or begun before the Transport 21announcement of November 1, 2005.

According to a statement released by the Department of Transport, the original timetable of completion dates ‘‘was designed to set challenging targets for the agencies and was drawn up by the department at a time when many of the projects mentioned were only at the design/planning stage’’.

‘‘Final completion dates,” the department now says, ‘‘will only be determined when the planning process and contract negotiations have been concluded.”

One project that the department says has been completed ahead of schedule is a new Dublin city centre rail station, which was originally scheduled to be completed by the end of 2009.

At the time of the launch in 2005, and for some time afterwards, the then transport minister Martin Cullen and his officials said this referred to the new underground station at St Stephen’s Green, which Cullen described as comparable to Grand Central Station in New York.

However, the department now insists that the ‘‘new Dublin city centre rail station’’ referred to in the Transport 21 documents is the new station in the docklands which was opened earlier this year.

The St Stephen’s Green station, as a part of the Metro North project and Interconnector (a rail link from Heuston Stat ion to Connolly Station) projects, is now projected to be finished sometime between 2013 and 2015, officials say.

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=27967-qqqx=1.asp

Surely The Post must have got that wrong about the city centre station? Or was it that the T21 maps were so amateurishly produced that Cullen himself couldn't read them.

bk · 07-11-2007 3:47pm

strassenwolf wrote: »

Surely The Post must have got that wrong about the city centre station? Or was it that the T21 maps were so amateurishly produced that Cullen himself couldn't read them.

Yes, I think it was bad, sensationalist reporting by the SBP.

They have clearly mixed up the docklands station and the Stephens Green station. After all, what would be the point in opening the Stephens Green station before 2010, when the lines to use the station, have always been scheduled for 2013 and 2015?

Also the SBP more or less over looks the fact that almost all the road projects are on schedule and many are actually ahead of schedule.

Carawaystick · 08-11-2007 12:20am

Docklands station is not in the city centre.

not by any objective standard. Connolly is hardly in the city centre
If Docklands was in the city centre, ther'd be a demand for services on weekends and public holidays to serve it.

If odcklands was in the city centre, then Grand Canal DOck Station would be too. and so Docklands wouldn't be The First New City Centre Station In God Knows How Many Years

What road schemes are ahead of schedule? Is this the new delayed schedule to not count none of the main interurban routes being finished by their target dated of last Christmas?

Where are these schedules published? how much work takes place before the scheduled start date?

Happy birthday, Transport 21 - launched Nov 2005

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