So radar detectors are illegal?

Mr. Flibble · 28-08-2007 6:35pm #1

Just got the new rules of the road book through the post. They say [p. 92] that devices which can detect speed detection equipment are illegal. I always thought this was wasn't clearly specified in the law. Anyone know what piece of law says they are illegal?

sundodger5 · 28-08-2007 7:40pm

it is the road traffic regulations 1991 i think. the regulations bit is correct not sure about the year.
i have had first hand experience:(

TychoCaine · 28-08-2007 8:25pm

And it's worse than that. Anything which indicates the presence of the plod or their cameras are illegal, so GPS based kit like this, which doesn't detect anything (it just happens to beep like mad if your speeding close to specific postiions in their database, which happen to be where the cameras are) is illegal here too.

Mr. Flibble · 28-08-2007 8:25pm

sundodger5 wrote:

it is the road traffic regulations 1991 i think. the regulations bit is correct not sure about the year.
i have had first hand experience:(

Ah, yep, its there.
Oh well, have to take it easy on those large empty stretches of road then.

Mr. Flibble · 28-08-2007 8:51pm

TychoCaine wrote:

And it's worse than that. Anything which indicates the presence of the plod or their cameras are illegal, so GPS based kit like this, which doesn't detect anything (it just happens to beep like mad if your speeding close to specific postiions in their database, which happen to be where the cameras are) is illegal here too.

Thats a bit sad since any modern gps gizmodo can be used to do just that.

Alun · 28-08-2007 8:54pm

TychoCaine wrote:

And it's worse than that. Anything which indicates the presence of the plod or their cameras are illegal, so GPS based kit like this, which doesn't detect anything (it just happens to beep like mad if your speeding close to specific postiions in their database, which happen to be where the cameras are) is illegal here too.

Are you sure of that? I know they made such things illegal in Switzerland, but it's just plain silly .. they may as well make maps illegal in that case. I mean, you could mark the cameras on them by hand with a pen and use them as well to indicate the presence of a camera.

Mr. Flibble · 28-08-2007 9:02pm

Alun wrote:

Are you sure of that? I know they made such things illegal in Switzerland, but it's just plain silly .. they may as well make maps illegal in that case. I mean, you could mark the cameras on them by hand with a pen and use them as well to indicate the presence of a camera.

.

irishstatutebook wrote:

3. In these Regulations, "speed meter detector" means any device which is capable of being used to indicate the existence of, or to frustrate the operation of, electronic or other apparatus being used to give indications from which the speed at which a person was driving can be inferred.

4. A person shall not use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle to which is fitted, or in or on which is carried, a speed meter detector whether or not such device is actually in use..

5. (1) The importation or supplying of, or offering to supply, a speed meter detector is hereby prohibited.

(2) The fitting of, or offering to fit, a speed meter detector to a mechanically propelled vehicle is hereby prohibited.

TychoCaine · 28-08-2007 11:53pm

Alun wrote:

Are you sure of that? I know they made such things illegal in Switzerland, but it's just plain silly .. they may as well make maps illegal in that case. I mean, you could mark the cameras on them by hand with a pen and use them as well to indicate the presence of a camera.

I'm certain mate. I used to do some work for the company I linked to. As you say, having the locations marked on a map is technically illegal, as would sat-navs if they had an Irish speed camera database installed. they're perfectly legal in France, Spain, the UK and Belgium, where they're seen as a good thing by the police. They're illegal here and in Germany.

OKenora · 29-08-2007 12:38am

As you say, having the locations marked on a map is technically illegal,

No it is not, the law applies to any "device" which is taken as an electronic piece of equipment. It is perfectly legal to mark them on maps. This debate took place on another topic recently too, regarding the legality of a GPS device with a speed camera database covering Ireland loaded.

I think you would be very unlucky and hard done by being prosecuted for using a GPS database in a satnav, but i can see people being prosecuted for using essentially the same stuff in devices like the Inform8tor or the Inforad.

I got stopped and asked what my inform8tor was (UK car and I live in UK but regularly drive in the Republic), The Garda in question seemed quite happy with the explanation that it was a digital GPS speedometer with a speed limit database built in. He asked did that include cameras and I replied yes. He then asked did it detect the radar or infrared and I said no (it doesn't) and he replied "oh, thats fine then, on you go, drive safely"

Alun · 29-08-2007 8:43am

TychoCaine wrote:

I'm certain mate. I used to do some work for the company I linked to.

So, I assume they got written confirmation from someone in a position of authority to give it that these devices were illegal? Seems a bit strange considering that the piece of legislation concerned was written in 1991, when such things would have been considered pure science fiction

Anyway, I'm sure a clever lawyer could argue his way out of that one and claim that they do not "indicate the presence of" but merely "mark the possible location of" or some such.

Alun · 29-08-2007 8:43am

OKenora wrote:

I got stopped and asked what my inform8tor was (UK car and I live in UK but regularly drive in the Republic), The Garda in question seemed quite happy with the explanation that it was a digital GPS speedometer with a speed limit database built in. He asked did that include cameras and I replied yes. He then asked did it detect the radar or infrared and I said no (it doesn't) and he replied "oh, thats fine then, on you go, drive safely"

Which would indicate that the Gardai think they're OK ... ?

TychoCaine · 29-08-2007 11:46am

Alun wrote:

So, I assume they got written confirmation from someone in a position of authority to give it that these devices were illegal? Seems a bit strange considering that the piece of legislation concerned was written in 1991, when such things would have been considered pure science fiction

Anyway, I'm sure a clever lawyer could argue his way out of that one and claim that they do not "indicate the presence of" but merely "mark the possible location of" or some such.

They got written confirmation that these particular ones were legal to import, only because their database didn't include any Irish coordinates (they handed a sample to the gardaí to check). I think the usage of the term "indicates" Vs. "detects" was probably accidental, but the first GPS sat was launched in 1983 and the concept has been around since the '70s, so it is possible that some civil servant was using his noodle.

No barrister would attempt a defense based on the semantics of the phrase, because a judge will tell him to stop taking the p1ss.

OKenora wrote:

No it is not, the law applies to any "device" which is taken as an electronic piece of equipment.

Read it again...

3. In these Regulations, "speed meter detector" means any device which is capable of being used to indicate the existence of, or to frustrate the operation of, electronic or other apparatus being used to give indications from which the speed at which a person was driving can be inferred.

The law refers to the speed meter (i.e. the GATSO/Radar/Laser gun) being electronic (or other), not the box/map in your car. And just because a map doesn't use batteries doesn't mean that it isn't a "device".

MrPudding · 29-08-2007 11:53am

TychoCaine wrote:

They got written confirmation that these particular ones were legal to import, only because their database didn't include any Irish coordinates (they handed a sample to the gardaí to check). I think the usage of the term "indicates" Vs. "detects" was probably accidental, but the first GPS sat was launched in 1983 and the concept has been around since the '70s, so it is possible that some civil servant was using his noodle.

No barrister would attempt a defense based on the semantics of the phrase, because a judge will tell him to stop taking the p1ss.
Read it again...

The law refers to the speed meter (i.e. the GATSO/Radar/Laser gun) being electronic (or other), not the box/map in your car. And just because a map doesn't use batteries doesn't mean that it isn't a "device".

So can we expect the government to block the AA route planner then?

MrP

TychoCaine · 29-08-2007 11:57am

MrPudding wrote:

So can we expect the government to block the AA route planner then?

MrP

The Irish AA route planner doesn't list speed cameras, unlike the UK one. I wonder why?

Mr. Flibble · 29-08-2007 12:06pm

TychoCaine wrote:

The Irish AA route planner doesn't list speed cameras, unlike the UK one. I wonder why?

Would you agree that they have made it illegal to have any internet ready phone/computer in your car? :eek:

MrPudding · 29-08-2007 12:23pm

TychoCaine wrote:

The Irish AA route planner doesn't list speed cameras, unlike the UK one. I wonder why?

Ah, I didn't notice that. To be honest, I think stuff like this is a clear indication that cameras in Ireland are about revenue collection and not safety.

mrP

Mr. Flibble · 29-08-2007 12:51pm

MrPudding wrote:

Ah, I didn't notice that. To be honest, I think stuff like this is a clear indication that cameras in Ireland are about revenue collection and not safety.

Why is that?

Alun · 29-08-2007 12:57pm

TychoCaine wrote:

They got written confirmation that these particular ones were legal to import, only because their database didn't include any Irish coordinates (they handed a sample to the gardaí to check). I think the usage of the term "indicates" Vs. "detects" was probably accidental, but the first GPS sat was launched in 1983 and the concept has been around since the '70s, so it is possible that some civil servant was using his noodle.

I'm well aware of when the history of the GPS system, I worked on this stuff back in the 80's at Philips (the original CARIN), but I doubt if the average civil servant in 1991 even knew what a computer, was let alone a GPS system, so I suspect it's old legislation being re-interpreted to make something illegal that hadn't even been considered when it was originally drafted TBH.

No barrister would attempt a defence based on the semantics of the phrase, because a judge will tell him to stop taking the p1ss.

In Ireland, I can well believe that. We're the world champions in both sloppily formulated legislation with enormous scope for misinterpretation and judges who do just that and make up the law as they go along regardless of what the original intention was. But that's a discussion for another day

Idleater · 29-08-2007 1:00pm

TychoCaine wrote:

And just because a map doesn't use batteries doesn't mean that it isn't a "device".

Was there not even something a while back that the actual Garda website was listing the location of speed traps?

TychoCaine · 29-08-2007 1:18pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Would you agree that they have made it illegal to have any internet ready phone/computer in your car? :eek:

In theory, yes, but gardaí have a thing called discretion. But I'm sure if they stopped you and you had a laptop on the passenger seat, or caught you hammering away at a phone keypad and were actively using that site then they might throw in the charge, if they knew about it (and as OKenora noted below, not all do), along with a dangerous driving charge.

MrPudding · 29-08-2007 1:53pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Why is that?

If the government were interested in cutting road deaths rather than collecting revenue then a number of things would be done differently.

For a start cameras, fixed or otherwise, would be deployed in locations where people are being killed or injured. Nailing people doing 10kph more than the limit on the N11 does not really made the N11, already reasonably safe, any safer. It most certainly does not improve safety on road in Donegal.

If it is about safety then why hide them? A camera that is hidden or not noticed does not have an immediate effect, it presence may only be detected several weeks later when the notification arrives. What good it that?

If the cameras where located in dangerous areas and highly advertised then they would actually slow people down, right there, right then.

As far as I am concerned a safety camera doing its job should never catch anyone speeding.

MrP

craichoe · 29-08-2007 4:34pm

TychoCaine wrote:

The Irish AA route planner doesn't list speed cameras, unlike the UK one. I wonder why?

Mine does ???

I can update it through the Evesham website

Mr. Flibble · 29-08-2007 4:43pm

MrPudding wrote:

If the government were interested in cutting road deaths rather than collecting revenue then a number of things would be done differently.

For a start cameras, fixed or otherwise, would be deployed in locations where people are being killed or injured. Nailing people doing 10kph more than the limit on the N11 does not really made the N11, already reasonably safe, any safer. It most certainly does not improve safety on road in Donegal.

If it is about safety then why hide them? A camera that is hidden or not noticed does not have an immediate effect, it presence may only be detected several weeks later when the notification arrives. What good it that?

If the cameras where located in dangerous areas and highly advertised then they would actually slow people down, right there, right then.

As far as I am concerned a safety camera doing its job should never catch anyone speeding.

I agree that the implementation of speed cameras here is purely designed to generate revenue and has little to do with road safety but I don't agree that having cameras visible or having their locations known would help road safety.

I mean if you never know where a speed camera is going to be you are going to go slower overall than if you know where they are, in which case you can just slow down as you pass them.

Seth Brundle · 29-08-2007 9:55pm

But surely prevention is better than punishment afterwards?
Look at the UK - they have the lowest RTA fatality rate, yet all of their camera locations are public.

Mr. Flibble · 29-08-2007 10:13pm

kbannon wrote:

But surely prevention is better than punishment afterwards?
Look at the UK - they have the lowest RTA fatality rate, yet all of their camera locations are public.

Well of course, but telling people where speed cameras are doesn't prevent them from speeding where they are not. Not telling them does, to a larger extent at least.

TychoCaine · 29-08-2007 10:27pm

kbannon wrote:

But surely prevention is better than punishment afterwards?
Look at the UK - they have the lowest RTA fatality rate, yet all of their camera locations are public.

I'm sure those in charge would argue that the fear of a camera around every corner will slow you down everywhere, rather than the knowledge of the few locations, which only slows people down where the cameras are. The UK get around this by having cameras absolutely everywhere.

Krusty_Clown · 09-10-2007 9:45pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Would you agree that they have made it illegal to have any internet ready phone/computer in your car? :eek:

My web-page doesn't indicate the presence of speed cameras. It points out locations where cameras were once located. It's a historic record, if you like. Any resemblance to current camera locations is purely co-incidental.

Also, if you compared the actual co-ordinates with any genuine locations that might exist, I would imagine that my co-ordinates do not exactly pin-point camera locations. My GPS receiver is always out by a few feet.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it..

mick.fr · 09-10-2007 9:51pm

When I go to the North or UK mainland my Garmin tells me real time where the speed cameras are and tells to slow down cause there is one in 1km or so, and I am not asking him anything, in Ireland, my Garmin is clueless...

TychoCaine · 09-10-2007 10:05pm

Krusty_Clown wrote:

My web-page doesn't indicate the presence of speed cameras. It points out locations where cameras were once located. It's a historic record, if you like. Any resemblance to current camera locations is purely co-incidental.

Also, if you compared the actual co-ordinates with any genuine locations that might exist, I would imagine that my co-ordinates do not exactly pin-point camera locations. My GPS receiver is always out by a few feet.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it..

What's your web page URL then?

Krusty_Clown · 09-10-2007 10:42pm

It was in Mr Flibble's post and my quoted reply. Just click on the underlined hyperlink.

heliguy · 26-10-2007 7:23pm

Is there a csv database of Irish speed cameras.

So radar detectors are illegal?

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