Why did Jesus have to die?

mossieh · 17-08-2007 2:04pm #1

Answer: For our sins he was sacrificed.

Ok.

But why? The christian god is supposedly a being of infinite mercy and compassion. Why could he not forgive the sins of humanity without a blood sacrifice?

If you have children, put yourself in his position. Imagine deciding to hand your son over to a bloodthirsty mob so that they could torture and kill him. Imagine doing this despite the fact that you are omnipotent and nothing ever needs to happen unless you say it should.

I saw a crucifix today and that's when again I was struck by the overwhelming callousness of a being who could allow this to happen.

The usual response to this is 'We cannot know the mind of god, he moves in mysterious ways.'

Hmmm...he certainly does.

It seeems to me that either;

A: There is no god and Jesus was a man, who died an appalling death at the hands of a mob and that's it.

or

B: God is a twisted lunatic who kills on a whim.

Sorry if this seems lke a bit of a rant but I constantly hear the phrases 'merciful god' or 'god is good' and I find it hard to reconcile this with the deity who, when his son knew he was about to be slaughtered, begged his father to protect him and was ignored.

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 2:18pm

mossieh wrote:

Answer: For our sins he was sacrificed.

Ok.

But why?

Mossieh, the answer is God's justice demands that the price be paid for sin. And Jesus paid that price. It's like an economy. When we sin,
we incur a debt which has to be paid for.

In the scales of justice, only suffering can balance (atone for) sin.

God bless,
Noel.

Puck · 17-08-2007 2:29pm

Whenever there is wrong done there is a debt to be paid.

Imagine someone came into your room now and smashed the computer you are at to bits. Someone has done wrong and there is a debt. Now you can demand (and I don't think anyone would blame you) that this person pays you back for the damage that they've caused.

On the other hand you can say to the person "I forgive you" and not demand a repayment from them. But then who pays the cost? You do! You'll either decide to go without a computer or to buy a new one yourself, not to mention you bear the pain of having someone smash your personal belongings. You have paid the debt for their wrongdoing.

That's what God did. I think you are forgetting that Christians believe that this Jesus who was tortured and murdered was and is in fact God Himself.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 2:31pm

kelly1 wrote:

Mossieh, the answer is God's justice demands that the price be paid for sin.

Why exactly?

kelly1 wrote:

And Jesus paid that price. It's like an economy. When we sin,
we incur a debt which has to be paid for.

The debt wasn't paid for.

Jesus was God. God paid himself for our debt? That doesn't make sense. Why didn't God just forgive our sins, since it was basically the same thing. What purpose does creating and then killing Jesus serve?

Say you owe me €500.

Now you could pay me back, in which case the debt is paid.

Or I could be nice and forgive the debt and say "Don't worry about it".

Or I could be mean and say if you don't pay me back I'm going to break your thumbs, because some how the debt must be cleared, either with money or with your suffering.

But seriously, would it make much sense if I said "Don't worry about it, you don't have to pay the debt. But someone has to pay! I know, I'll break my own thumbs. That should do. Fair is fair after all"

You would probably look at me as if I was a mental patient.

MooseJam · 17-08-2007 2:32pm

or option C: there is no God and Jesus didn't exist either

mossieh · 17-08-2007 2:33pm

kelly1 wrote:

Mossieh, the answer is God's justice demands that the price be paid for sin. And Jesus paid that price. It's like an economy. When we sin,
we incur a debt which has to be paid for.

In the scales of justice, only suffering can balance (atone for) sin.

God bless,
Noel.

I get that Noel but why did his son have to pay the price? What sense did that make? Jesus didn't commit the sins. What (supposedly loving) father would allow his son to die for the sins of others? It's incomprehensible to me how you can believe that god is both merciful and vengeful, that he forgives all, but only if the 'price be paid', that he loved his son but handed him over for sacrifice. Do you see no contradictions here?

Puck · 17-08-2007 2:36pm

Wicknight wrote:

Or I could be nice and forgive the debt and say "Don't worry about it".

... thereby taking on that debt of €500 yourself.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 2:43pm

Puck wrote:

But then who pays the cost? You do!
...
That's what God did.

Who did Jesus/God pay the debt to

Seriously, this is a genuine question, that I've asked a thousand times and never got an answer. Have you guys actually thought about this at all?

Puck wrote:

I think you are forgetting that Christians believe that this Jesus who was tortured and murdered was and is in fact God Himself.

No that isn't forgotten. That is actually the entire problem, the reason why your reasoning of why Jesus died makes no sense.

If Jesus was someone else separate from God he could take on man's debt, in the same way that I can pay off my mates gambling debts. As you say, someone has to pay, my mate can't, so I do it for him. The bookie gets him payment and everyone is happy.

The problem, the bit that makes no sense, is that Jesus was in fact God. Jesus is the bookie.

It would be like the bookie paying off my mates gambling debts to himself That would be ridiculous.

The bookie doesn't need to pay himself the debt my friend has run up. That would be exactly the same as simply forgiving the debt.

If the bookie took €500 that my mate owed from his wallet and then put it straight back into is wallet what purpose does that serve?

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 2:48pm

Wicknight wrote:

Why exactly?

Why are criminals jailed? What kind of society would we have if criminals could offend with impunity?? There would be complete chaos wouldn't there.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 2:48pm

Puck wrote:

... thereby taking on that debt of €500 yourself.

2 points

Firstly, that still doesn't explain what purpose Jesus being tortured to death serves?

Secondly, God is the ultimate source of power. There is nothing higher that he needs to be beholden to. God cannot accumulate debt (who would he be in debt to?). We can accumulate debt with God, since he is above us, we can owe him. But he never owes anyone else.

If he takes on our debt that doesn't mean he then owes someone else what we once owed. It means the debt is gone, forgotten.

Using your analogy God has an unlimited supply of new computers. If we take one we owe him. If we cannot pay for it God can either smite us, or forgive us. But it makes no sense to say that he takes on our debt because he is the source of the computers in the first place. He never owes anyone for them.

Puck · 17-08-2007 2:51pm

Yes the bookie does end up paying his own debt. If your mate ows him €500 and the bookie lets him off then the bookie takes that loss of €500 on himself. €500 has disappeared from the bookie's accounts. The debt doesn't just go away.

Same as if you decide I no longer owe you €500 because you've forgiven me. You've said goodbye to that €500, you are €500 less.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 2:54pm

kelly1 wrote:

Why are criminals jailed? What kind of society would we have if criminals could offend with impunity?? There would be complete chaos wouldn't there.

Criminals are jailed because we, as humans, lack the power or ability to stop them from committing crime otherwise.

God does. It makes very little sense that all omnipotent god would allow sin to take place and then punish people when it does after the fact.

Would you allow someone to shoot someone and then arrest them afterwards? Or would you simply not allow them to shoot the person in the first place.

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 2:57pm

Puck wrote:

Yes the bookie does end up paying his own debt. If your mate ows him €500 and the bookie lets him off then the bookie takes that loss of €500 on himself. €500 has disappeared from the bookie's accounts. The debt doesn't just go away.

Same as if you decide I no longer owe you €500 because you've forgiven me. You've said goodbye to that €500, you are €500 less.

The bookie doesn't write off the debt. He pays it himself by going out and earning it. And the books still balance.

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 3:04pm

Wicknight wrote:

Criminals are jailed because we, as humans, lack the power or ability to stop them from committing crime otherwise.

God does. It makes very little sense that all omnipotent god would allow sin to take place and then punish people when it does after the fact.

Would you allow someone to shoot someone and then arrest them afterwards? Or would you simply not allow them to shoot the person in the first place.

God out of love for us, gives us free will. If God forced us to love Him, if God took away our freedom to love or reject Him, then His love for us wouldn't be true love, would it? It would be imperfect love.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 3:12pm

kelly1 wrote:

The bookie doesn't write off the debt. He pays it himself by going out and earning it.

TO WHO DOES GOD PAY THE DEBT????

Who does God pay this debt to? Seriously, this is nonsense

A bookie has to pay the debt himself because he eventually has to get things from other people, he has to pay people for bread and milk and his rent.

God owes nothing to anyone else, and can never owe anything to anyone else.

kelly1 wrote:

And the books still balance.

No they don't. That is the whole problem.

Lets say that the debt of sin is A. And lets say Jesus is B.

God's ledger

Debit Credit
A
B

Notice anything? That is right the books don't balance.

God is owed debt for our sin. So what happens. He loses Jesus. So now not only is God still owed for our sin, but now he has lost Jesus. He is down twice.

God could have just written off A, written off the debt. But no, he thought it was a good idea to write off A and also lose B as well.

God cannot pay himself with himself to clear the debt. That doesn't make any sense. It is simple doubt ledger book keeping. The credit has to come from from some where else external to God.

Instead of losing once God ends up losing twice.

Seriously, God should be an Enron accountant. If this was a multinational company God would be in jail for accountancy fraud.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 3:16pm

kelly1 wrote:

God out of love for us, gives us free will. If God forced us to love Him, if God took away our freedom to love or reject Him, then His love for us wouldn't be true love, would it? It would be imperfect love.

that is the whole point.

God is forcing us to love him and behave a certain way, by threatening punishment if we don't.

If God punishes us for our sin (sin God knows we will commit) then we are good out of fear, not love. And that, by your own definition, is imperfect love.

Perfect love is unconditional love. If God loved us he wouldn't make us love him.

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 3:23pm

Wicknight wrote:

TO WHO DOES GOD PAY THE DEBT????

To Himself!

Wicknight wrote:

Instead of losing once God ends up losing twice.

Yes, that's the beauty and goodness of God. We put ourselves in debt to Him and yet He pays the debt back with the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son. How generous is that???!!!

God doesn't think and act like us! He gives and gives and doesn't count the cost.

BTW, he didn't loose Jesus. Jesus suffered on the cross and paid off the debt.
He's now living in Heaven in a resurrected/glorified body.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 3:34pm

kelly1 wrote:

To Himself!

You cannot pay off a debt to yourself. You can forgive a debt. But if God forgave the debt then, as I asked, what purpose did it serve Jesus dying? Who did God give Jesus to? He gave to HIMSELF. But he already had him to start with. So what exactly does that achieve? What does God gain?

As I said it would be like a lone shark forgiving a debt and then breaking his own thumbs, just for the heck of it.

Utter nonsense.

kelly1 wrote:

We put ourselves in debt to Him and yet He pays the debt back with the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son. How generous is that???!!!

Seriously Kelly, are you trolling or do you really not get this :rolleyes:

God started off with Jesus. He then gives himself Jesus. He now has Jesus. How is that generous? God gave himself what he already had

Heck I can do that. We can all do that. Look I just gave myself the money in my wallet. I'm so generous.

kelly1 wrote:

God doesn't think and act like us! He gives and gives and doesn't count the cost.

GIVES TO WHOM? :rolleyes:

God gave Jesus to HIMSELF. He already had him to start with!

kelly1 wrote:

BTW, he didn't loose Jesus. Jesus suffered on the cross and paid off the debt.
He's now living in Heaven in a resurrected/glorified body.

Paid the debt to whom?

mossieh · 17-08-2007 3:37pm

kelly1 wrote:

T We put ourselves in debt to Him and yet He pays the debt back with the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son. How generous is that???!!!

How cruel is that to his son? A living being made to suffer unbearable torture to pay off a debt that a truly forgiving father could ignore.

mathie · 17-08-2007 3:38pm

Wicknight wrote:

God is forcing us to love him and behave a certain way, by threatening punishment if we don't.

Believe or die. Thank you forgiving Lord for all those options.

End Bill Hicks

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 3:44pm

mossieh wrote:

How cruel is that to his son? A living being made to suffer unbearable torture to pay off a debt that a truly forgiving father could ignore.

It doesn't even pay off the debt. God was simply shifting assets.

It is surprisingly exactly what Enron did. They shifted around assets to make it look like they were making money when in fact they always had the same amount (or were losing it).

God is owed for sin. So he gives up an asset (Jesus) and receives a payment (Jesus' torture), but he ends up with exactly what he started with, and is still owed the original amount for the sin. He gains nothing. It is utterly pointless.

Its good to know that accountancy fraud was taking place in classical times as well :rolleyes:

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 3:45pm

Wicknight wrote:

You cannot pay off a debt to yourself. You can forgive a debt. But if God forgave the debt then, as I asked, what purpose did it serve Jesus dying? Who did God give Jesus to? He gave to HIMSELF. But he already had him to start with. So what exactly does that achieve? What does God gain?

As I said it would be like a lone shark forgiving a debt and then breaking his own thumbs, just for the heck of it.

Utter nonsense.

Let me put it another way. God's Justice demands that the debt created by sin be paid for in suffering. Instead of making us suffer for eternity in Hell, He let Jesus suffer in our place. What's so hard to understand about that?

When a criminal commits a crime, we jail him for x years. We demand that the criminal do time. God on the other hand is so good that He did the time for us!

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 3:51pm

mossieh wrote:

How cruel is that to his son? A living being made to suffer unbearable torture to pay off a debt that a truly forgiving father could ignore.

It may seem cruel but it's either send His Son to the cross or send us all to Hell. Would a good God send ALL of us to Hell?

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 4:10pm

kelly1 wrote:

When a criminal commits a crime, we jail him for x years. We demand that the criminal do time. God on the other hand is so good that He did the time for us!

But God is the one who the debt is paid too. What purpose does that serve?

Who does God appease by doing the time for us? He appeases himself by torturing himself? That makes absolutely no sense.

Think of it this way -

A man burst into your house and shoots your wife. Need less to say you are very upset. The police catch the man and bring him in front of you.

Now you would be perfectly within your right to say that the man should some how pay off his crime. He has a debt to you for your loss.

You would also have the right to say that in a moment of forgiveness you have decided that you will forgive this man and his sin against you.

Both of these options are fine.

But now imagine you said that you would forgive the man, but someone must still pay for the death of your wife, some one has to suffer.

So you decide to shoot yourself in the leg

There. Now your wife has been shot, and in payment someone else has been shot. Someone else is suffering for the debt to you. Now the debt to yourself has been paid. You have paid for the loss you have suffered with your own pain. That is justice is it not?

No of course it isn't! It is ridiculous!

You (or society) are owed for the death of your wife. Either the criminal pays that debt or you forgive him. Forgiving him and then shooting yourself is pointless.

But it is utterly ridiculous for you yourself to suffer for this debt. That doesn't do anything, it doesn't even make sense.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 4:11pm

kelly1 wrote:

It may seem cruel but it's either send His Son to the cross or send us all to Hell. Would a good God send ALL of us to Hell?

No a good God would have forgiven our debt (which he did), without deciding to torture himself. Torturing himself doesn't do anything, and he still ends up forgiving our sin.

JC 2K3 · 17-08-2007 4:24pm

Hmmm....

kelly1, are you trying to say that it doesn't matter which human is punished for someone sinning, as long as someone suffers?

Like, could people be suffering in Africa because there is a murder committed in Ireland?

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 5:26pm

For anyone who's interested:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

The reason as to *why* God requires atonement for sin doesn't appear to be fully understood. But it's clear that God does require atonement for sin.

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 5:30pm

kelly1 wrote:

But it's clear that God does require atonement for sin.

That isn't the issue.

The issue is why God requires atonement for sin from himself

When God "sacrificed" Jesus who was he atoning to? It makes absolutely no sense to atone to oneself, any more than it makes sense for the person who has just been mugged to chop their own hands off in atonement to themselves

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 5:45pm

Wicknight wrote:

That isn't the issue.

The issue is why God requires atonement for sin from himself

When God "sacrificed" Jesus who was he atoning to? It makes absolutely no sense to atone to oneself, any more than it makes sense for the person who has just been mugged to chop their own hands off in atonement to themselves

Because the debt incurred by sin is infinite due to God's infinite holiness and only an infinite (divine) sacrifice can atone.

See this article: http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/sscr27.htm

Does this answer the question?

Zombrex · 17-08-2007 6:13pm

kelly1 wrote:

Because the debt incurred by sin is infinite due to God's infinite holiness and only an infinite (divine) sacrifice can atone.

See this article: http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/sscr27.htm

Does this answer the question?

No, its just more nonsense, no offense Kelly but I suspect you don't understand any of this either.

Do you actually understand what atonement means?

God cannot atone to himself because he is the one who wants or requires the atonement in the first place. Him atoning to himself is utterly pointless.

It would like being offended by something someone did or said and then apologizing to yourself for what the other person said so you feel less offended. Would this make you feel better? Of course not, even the idea of apologizing to oneself for offense caused to you is ridiculous.

kelly1 · 17-08-2007 9:24pm

Wicknight wrote:

No, its just more nonsense, no offense Kelly but I suspect you don't understand any of this either.

Do you actually understand what atonement means?

God cannot atone to himself because he is the one who wants or requires the atonement in the first place. Him atoning to himself is utterly pointless.

It would like being offended by something someone did or said and then apologizing to yourself for what the other person said so you feel less offended. Would this make you feel better? Of course not, even the idea of apologizing to oneself for offense caused to you is ridiculous.

Don't you realize that Christ is fully divine and fully HUMAN?

Why did Jesus have to die?

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