Learning a programming language?

GerryRyan · 06-07-2007 1:27pm #1

Ok, I've a lot of spare time this Summer, and have always wanted to learn one. I used to mess around with Qbasic years ago - even managed to make a few games.

What would be the best one learn for simple game development? I have an idea for a unique take on the fps type of game, and want to do everything myself, from scratch.

Learning the basics
game idea/structure
textures
sfx
making it playable in an online situation

Doesn't bother me if it takes years ...

amen · 06-07-2007 1:45pm

If you want it learn programming start off with C#/Java/C++

of course C++ is probably the best for game programming although
Microsoft have made their XNA game library available to download for free and you code in C#

Valve(Makers of Halflife/Counter Strike etc) also provide access to their source code if own a copy of their game

You can also download the Quake engines(up to Quake 3 I think) for free

There is also the unreal engine which allows you to created games via scripted mods

your best bet would be to learn c++ and get your hands on a Graphics engines

let us know how you get on!

ohh yeah Nintendo are also releasing a SDK for the Wii

cornbb · 06-07-2007 1:49pm

Things have come a long way since Qbasic... be aware that the sort of project you are talking about would normally be developed by a large number of people with a broad range of skills. Developing something like this would probably necessitate learning not one programming language but several, as well as learning systems analysis, software architecture, graphics programming, artificial intelligence, networks programming, sound design, and a ton of other techniques as well as just "programming".

Also there's no such thing as programming anything from scratch.

I'd recommend learning to walk before learning to run. Or else lock yourself away from the world for the next few years. Good luck whatever you do.

run_Forrest_run · 06-07-2007 1:49pm

Games programming and graphics programming can be quite complex so I hope your summer months are very long!

Java is a good language to learn. There are lots of great Java forums for advice on a huge range of topics.

Also as a general suggestion you could get to grips with OO (Object Oriented) programming.

Check out Sun for Java:
http://java.sun.com

Naikon · 06-07-2007 1:57pm

C++:)
Games programming is not something to be taken lightly btw.

fasty · 06-07-2007 3:43pm

I can't believe there's only been one XNA recommendation! C++ is the de facto programming language in the games industry but it's got a pretty steep learning curve, let alone trying to get your head around APIs like Direct X and the maths required.

XNA won't make the game for you, but it uses a more accesible language (C#) that isn't a million miles away from C++ as well as a load of sample code, in built resource management and a pretty decent community.

mach1982 · 06-07-2007 4:09pm

There are about 3-5 core parts, know these and you can learn any programming language. data types, condition statements ( loops if-else,functions/method/subroutine, and object orientated programming. If you learn C first all of the modern languages kinda grow from that.The most popular languages to day are C/C++, Java, Perl, and PHP. I found this book very help full when i was learning Java.Also there are a few good programming links on my links page at www.mach1982.com

Cake Fiend · 08-07-2007 5:08pm

C/C++ and SDL.

Hobbes · 09-07-2007 6:25am

amen wrote:

of course C++ is probably the best for game programming although

This may of been true a few years back but is no longer the case unless your trying to write the next Quake. However Java does now supports 3D cards and is as fast as C++ and networking is a doddle in it.

The majority of games on mobile devices is written in J2ME (Java2 Mobile Edition).

Doodee · 09-07-2007 11:22am

Lua

Evil Phil · 09-07-2007 11:52am

Care to elaborate on that Doodee?

workaccount · 09-07-2007 11:57am

amen wrote:

If you want it learn programming start off with C#/Java/C++

of course C++ is probably the best for game programming although
Microsoft have made their XNA game library available to download for free and you code in C#

Valve(Makers of Halflife/Counter Strike etc) also provide access to their source code if own a copy of their game

You can also download the Quake engines(up to Quake 3 I think) for free

There is also the unreal engine which allows you to created games via scripted mods

your best bet would be to learn c++ and get your hands on a Graphics engines

let us know how you get on!

ohh yeah Nintendo are also releasing a SDK for the Wii

The thing is that these are the "industry standard" type laungauges which is far from meaning there the best. Java and C# are far from it. Java and C++ have been standardised in some industries to make it easier for business's to replace programmers, colleges to create courses et cetera et cetera. There not the best languages for most problems though.

If you want to learn programming you should be using a language like python.

Telling someone to start off with C++ as there first language is a recipe for failure and most likely make a potentially talented programmer into a sh*t programmer.

Doodee · 09-07-2007 1:01pm

Evil Phil wrote:

Care to elaborate on that Doodee?

http://www.lua.org/

scojones · 09-07-2007 1:04pm

Doodee wrote:

http://www.lua.org/

Any reasons for / against. I'm sure if the OP just wanted links they'd have asked Google and left it at that.

workaccount · 09-07-2007 3:00pm

Doodee wrote:

http://www.lua.org/

Python ans perl are recognised as the most important and versatile scripting langauges in the world.

Evil Phil · 09-07-2007 3:20pm

The most important scripting languages in the world. That's quite a claim there workaccount, care to explain why they're the most important scripting languages in the world?

Surely, I'm I do except that a lot of scripting languages have limitations, the quality of the script depends on the coder and not just on the language chosen. They're both great languages, and there's no denying their versatility but it also depends on the coders skill level and the skills available. If you have skilled vbcoders immediately available then surely VBScript would be one of the first ports of call for scripting Windows Server 2003 tasks. I wouldn't go looking for a python coder. Again, if you have perl coders available for scripting something in Apache then they would be your first port of call, you wouldn't go recruiting for somebody working with a different language.

Doodee wrote:

http://www.lua.org/

You'll forgive me if I'm not overwhelmed by the weight of your argument.

Hobbes · 09-07-2007 3:38pm

workaccount wrote:

If you want to learn programming you should be using a language like python.

Why?

workaccount · 09-07-2007 3:54pm

Hobbes wrote:

Why?

Well the fact that Eric Raymond and the like advocate it is enough reason really. I would listen to him and others alike before corporates, marketing or advertising. He suggests it in the great and infamous text "How to become a hacker" http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html. Here's an article written by him on Python http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882

workaccount · 09-07-2007 3:56pm

Evil Phil wrote:

The most important scripting languages in the world. That's quite a claim there workaccount, care to explain why they're the most important scripting languages in the world?

Surely, I'm I do except that a lot of scripting languages have limitations, the quality of the script depends on the coder and not just on the language chosen. They're both great languages, and there's no denying their versatility but it also depends on the coders skill level and the skills available. If you have skilled vbcoders immediately available then surely VBScript would be one of the first ports of call for scripting Windows Server 2003 tasks. I wouldn't go looking for a python coder. Again, if you have perl coders available for scripting something in Apache then they would be your first port of call, you wouldn't go recruiting for somebody working with a different language.

You'll forgive me if I'm not overwhelmed by the weight of your argument.

Of course the most appropriate language for the job. That's not the way it works though in the business world. Everything is more or less Java. Just look at monster.ie

Call Me Jimmy · 09-07-2007 4:05pm

ThatGuy wrote:

Ok, I've a lot of spare time this Summer, and have always wanted to learn one. I used to mess around with Qbasic years ago - even managed to make a few games.

What would be the best one learn for simple game development? I have an idea for a unique take on the fps type of game, and want to do everything myself, from scratch.

Learning the basics
game idea/structure
textures
sfx
making it playable in an online situation

Doesn't bother me if it takes years ...

It would take years to make an fps game from scratch. Especially if you don't know how to program. If the fps isn't your only reason for wanting to program games then I suggest to start with java, it is relatively easy and you can start programming games sooner because ye wouldn't need to learn directx/opengl on top of that.

After a couple of weeks of learning java ye would be able to do a simple game applet ye know, I think ye need those sort of small goals to keep ye interested.

Evil Phil · 09-07-2007 4:52pm

workaccount wrote:

Everything is more or less Java.

No its not. Infact I would say that in business Java vs. Everything Else model(tm), Java is in the minority compared to everything else that is being used to develop software. A bold statement perhaps, but I'm confident that it is accurate.

However I'm getting slightly off the point: What advantages does Python or Perl give us over other scripting/programming languages?

workaccount · 09-07-2007 4:57pm

Evil Phil wrote:

No its not. Infact I would say that in business Java vs. Everything Else model(tm), Java is in the minority compared to everything else that is being used to develop software. A bold statement perhaps, but I'm confident that it is accurate.

However I'm getting slightly off the point: What advantages does Python or Perl give us over other scripting/programming languages?

Accurate or not there are a few industry standard languages decided as industry standards by the so called "business head". The language is not always the right language for the job.

The answer to your second question is a very simple one.....Real hackers use languages like python/perl/lisp. There the best programmers you can get. The most talented guys out there simply don't do mainstream languages like Java.

Evil Phil · 09-07-2007 5:28pm

workaccount wrote:

Accurate or not there are a few industry standard languages decided as industry standards by the so called "business head". The language is not always the right language for the job.

The anwer to your second question is a very simple one.....Real hackers use languages like python/perl/lisp. There the best programmers you can get. The most talented guys out there simply don't do mainstream languages like Java.

The answer to my second question is indeed a very simple one, but you haven't answered it. I don't care what real hackers (as apposed to the ones made from glue and balsa wood) use, I asked you what advantages those scripting languages give me. Can you give me two?

Also: I may be wrong here but aren't Python and Perl two highly mainstream scripting languages? I assumed they were.

Lemming · 09-07-2007 5:38pm

workaccount wrote:

Accurate or not there are a few industry standard languages decided as industry standards by the so called "business head". The language is not always the right language for the job.

What is industry 'standard' is defined by industry, not your opinion. If it's widely used in manner x, y, or z, than x, y, or z become accepted standards. Not to be confused with agreed standards which are dictates laid out by consensus between typically large industry players.

And who decides whether or not a language is the right language for the job? To be honest, your constant harping about "real hackers" this and that, strikes me that you are in inflexible and puritanical in your opinion, so your commentary about "the right language for the job" strikes me as being quite hollow and false.

The answer to your second question is a very simple one.....Real hackers use languages like python/perl/lisp. There the best programmers you can get. The most talented guys out there simply don't do mainstream languages like Java.

Tell me ... define a "real hacker". What does that term mean? What is the difference between a hacker who is "real" as opposed to "not real". The best programmer you can get might perhaps, ironically, be the one who is pragmatic enough to realise that inflexible and puritanical attitudes to approaching the task at hand are not going to achieve good results.

And as an aside, who are these "most talented guys" that you harp on about? Have they got names? Where can I meet them and can they show me their credentials that state that they are "the most talented"?

workaccount · 09-07-2007 5:41pm

Evil Phil wrote:

The answer to my second question is indeed a very simple one, but you haven't answered it. I don't care what real hackers (as apposed to the ones made from glue and balsa wood) use, I asked you what advantages those scripting languages give me. Can you give me two?

Also: I may be wrong here but aren't Python and Perl two highly mainstream scripting languages? I assumed they were.

I'm can't tell you what advantages it will give you. You will have to find that out for yourself I suppose.

Python and perl are fairly common but they were developed by hackers. They come from the underground as in no corporate sponsorship et cetera, they became popular by their own merit.

Evil Phil · 09-07-2007 5:49pm

workaccount wrote:

I'm can't tell you what advantages it will give you.

Is this because you don't know? It is isn't it? You know what workaccount, welcome to the Programming forum

Use it freely and it will help you gain the knowledge you so deperately desire. (read the fecken charter though, so few do). I just hope you're not disappointed by the lack of romance that comes with so called 'real' programming. /puts workaccount under wing

came from the underground

That almost warrents a cat picture if I didn't hate them so much.

Hobbes · 09-07-2007 8:09pm

workaccount wrote:

Well the fact that Eric Raymond and the like advocate it is enough reason really. I would listen to him and others alike before corporates, marketing or advertising. He suggests it in the great and infamous text "How to become a hacker" http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html. Here's an article written by him on Python http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882

While an interesting read the world has moved on in the last 7 years. There is no magic set of languages to make you a hacker.

The fact is if you want to learn a programming language pretty much all are easy if you sit down and study the stuff.

So the point becomes "Best language for the job" and "best habits".

"Best for the job" is pretty obvious. For example if you want to make 3D games you are not going to learn Perl or PHP (as examples).

There is no point learning a language that will teach you bad habits. For example Visual Basic is very easy to code in. You can pretty much make something nice out of the box. The problem is that you learn such bad habits it can take years to get rid of them.

There are also aspects to Coding that people even years coding don't think about. Localisation for example.

So you factor those in. You don't factor in what looks kool as it reflects off your face from the screen.

Evil Phil · 10-07-2007 9:32am

Angelina is hot though. In any language

Learning a programming language?

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