A Set of Kings Sir

BigCityBanker · 06-01-2007 1:14pm #1

Early in the game - villian is agressive to say the least and ive already let him bet a busted flush draw and let me take it down with 2nd pair. He likes to see flops etc.. Effective stacks.10,000.

Blinds 25/50 and you are on the Button.. You look down at KK and after a couple of limpers you make it 400 to play..

Flop Kh Jh 5x

Ok ive flopped top set - villian checks, and i check behind as I want some chips and know this guy is 1.01 to bet any card on the turn.

Turn 6h - villian checks his cards (I assume he is wondering if he has a heart) bets 900 and I make it 2900

he calls.....

Comments? Should I have done something differently?

AKQJ10 · 06-01-2007 2:48pm

my guess is he has made the flush on the turn and has looked now to give the impression he's betting the draw.

Bandara · 06-01-2007 2:58pm

he could have interpreted your flop check as nervousness and now feels he can move you off the hand with the three hearts out there.

just a thought bearing in mind the image you have given of him

BobSloane · 06-01-2007 4:13pm

Generally I would continuation bet that flop.
As played I think your line is very good too- You're very unlucky if he happened to be holding 2 hearts.
But if he is you've really played into his hands by checking the flop. He has no reason to bet his draw as you have taken the lead in the hand pre-flop and he is expecting to have to call a bet.

At least you have position on the river. If he is a good LAG you must be very wary if he bets out on the river after seeing you call a with 2nd pair earlier. But I still don't give him credit for the flush if he does bet on a 3 heart board.

If the river is a non-heart I'm calling any bet he makes and probably value betting my hand if he checks it to me.
If the river is a heart I'm hoping to get it checked down. Would he think you're capable of raising with the lone Ah on the turn?

MacStacked · 06-01-2007 4:23pm

Normally i think the look down is more likely a solitary heart than two hearts.

I think its ok. I would bet the flop most of the time here though, I know your hand is very strong at this point but you do need to protect it from flush draws and also if he is a very aggressive player he may see this as a standard continuation bet and call(to)bluff anyway.

Edit: Also betting this flop is going to give a lot more credence to our continuation bets from here on..obviously only if we get to showdown.

Mellor · 06-01-2007 4:57pm

I'd have to bet the flop, but smaller enough, to look like you might of missed, but to also prevent free cards with two hearts out there. His call is bad. If he was calling with a lone heart draw then he is calling 2.5/1. Would he normally chase draws this bad. A made flush or another made had is likely, is AJ out of his range, KJ and J5 unlikely, JJ or 55 would be nice, but unlikely.
He is had you beat on turn unlucky, but there are still 10 outs for you. If he drew to a river heart. Then sit and awsit to get in back off him in the next hands.

Ste05 · 06-01-2007 5:00pm

Please Bet that flop next time.

As played, I'm not mad on the re-raise on the turn, but it would depend on how he'd play Ah, but I'd never be in that spot without a very good reason after that flop.

phantom_lord · 06-01-2007 5:07pm

bet the flop.

I don't really like the turn rr tbh.

ntlbell · 06-01-2007 5:09pm

Ste05 wrote:

Please Bet that flop next time.

As played, I'm not mad on the re-raise on the turn, but it would depend on how he'd play Ah, but I'd never be in that spot without a very good reason after that flop.

You must bet the flop here.

Like Ste, not liking the re-raise on the turn.

Having not bet the flop, I just flat call the bet on the turn

Any idea who villian is?

Hitman Actual · 06-01-2007 5:50pm

How did he play the flop with his busted flush draw in the earlier hand? That's the key thing for me. Did he bet the flop, or check-call (or whatever, depending on his position)? When you say he's aggressive, do you expect him to bet his flopped draws as well? If you know enough about the opponent that you don't think he has a draw here, then checking to let him put money in on the turn is fine. Most of the time you won't have enough info though, so just keep it simple and bet the flop.

ianmc38 · 06-01-2007 7:43pm

Yeah bet the flop all day. That's definitely not a board you want to slowplay top set on. I hate the turn raise. What hands do you think he's calling with after you've raised?

valor · 06-01-2007 7:57pm

Definitely bet the flop

Hectorjelly · 06-01-2007 8:41pm

bet the flop! Theres 800 chips in the middle of the pot, and another 9200 to go in. Also you have such a strong hand which you pretty much cant fold, so you need to make draws pay/

I dont think the turn raise is that bad, allthough now you have to check behind on a blank river. In fact now I think about it I really dont like it.

Rb · 06-01-2007 8:53pm

Draw heavy flop and you check, leaving your villain with the option of a free card, wtf?
As everyone else has said, bet the flop. As played, I'd probably just call on the turn.

RoundTower · 07-01-2007 6:08am

I thought I posted earlier, I said something like bet because you are so deep, but normally checking the flop would be OK. Except (which is quite likely) if you are one of those players who would bet any flop except insta check when you hit trips, then you should fix this.

Rb · 07-01-2007 6:49am

RoundTower wrote:

but normally checking the flop would be OK.

How come (just out of interest) ? On a draw heavy flop like the one in question, how can we justify giving an opponent the option of checking for a free card?

BigCityBanker · 07-01-2007 3:01pm

Thanks for the replies.

The river brought the 3h, the opponent checked and I checked behind. He had Jd 8h for the 8 high flush.

Needless to say I was steaming, firstly cos I thought I should have probably done something differently and secondly cos he called down with an 8 high flush draw.

This guy was a donkey, in the same was as an alcoholic craves drink this guy had a compulsion to bet/call everything that moved. Within 90 minutes he was up to 30k in chips and within another 90 minutes he was gone broke. Now he didnt go broke in one big bust up - he just called himself out of the tournament.

From my own perspective this hand put me on mini tilt and I was happy to just have brought myself around again.

ocallagh · 07-01-2007 3:20pm

rb_ie wrote:

How come (just out of interest) ? On a draw heavy flop like the one in question, how can we justify giving an opponent the option of checking for a free card?

It can be a close call.
I presume RT means most of the time in tournaments the stacks are so small compared to the pot there is normally only 1 or possibly 2 bets left before both players are all-in. In those circumstances you can sometimes take the chance to check on a draw heavy flop. He will never have the odds to hit it, and the times he commits himself with a worse hand outweigh the times he hits a draw. This probably only applies to aggressive players who are likely to bluff or bet 2nd pair etc... I' just up so I'm sure there are plenty f flaws in the above paragraph. I have highlighted a few 'get me out of it' words in case RT or HJ totally disagree

RoundTower · 07-01-2007 8:45pm

rb_ie wrote:

How come (just out of interest) ? On a draw heavy flop like the one in question, how can we justify giving an opponent the option of checking for a free card?

well it's not very likely he has a flush draw, and he could also hit a card that gives him a second best hand. Also if he does have a flush draw he isn't likely to c/f the turn if he misses, so he will be putting more money into the pot whatever happens.

Rb · 07-01-2007 9:11pm

ocallagh wrote:

It can be a close call.
I presume RT means most of the time in tournaments the stacks are so small compared to the pot there is normally only 1 or possibly 2 bets left before both players are all-in. In those circumstances you can sometimes take the chance to check on a draw heavy flop. He will never have the odds to hit it, and the times he commits himself with a worse hand outweigh the times he hits a draw. This probably only applies to aggressive players who are likely to bluff or bet 2nd pair etc... I' just up so I'm sure there are plenty f flaws in the above paragraph. I have highlighted a few 'get me out of it' words in case RT or HJ totally disagree

Roundtower wrote:

well it's not very likely he has a flush draw, and he could also hit a card that gives him a second best hand. Also if he does have a flush draw he isn't likely to c/f the turn if he misses, so he will be putting more money into the pot whatever happens.

Thanks lads.

While I agree that it is unlikely that he has a flush draw, since the villain is LAG I presume we can't put hands like ATs/o, AQs/o and depending on past hands showndown, possibly QTs/o and a host of suited broadway cards out of his raise calling range, especially with the stacks so deep. Where my thinking lies is that checking here could give him the opportunity to draw out on us, an A,Q,T on the turn could be troublesome for us, as well as any heart. I would have just thought that betting out with our made hand, therefore making him pay for any draw he may have (which he will more often miss) would be the better option? It could indeed kill the action, but with such deep stacks are we not better to try and build a big pot here since we've such a strong hand? Also, betting out here would give us information on what our opponent holds (i.e whether hes drawing or not) and also, we may be able to get him to call along with other hands such as AK,KQ,KJ etc and therefore build a bigger pot for us, no?

I could be entirely flawed my thinking though, its just how I viewed the situation the OP was in.

RoundTower · 07-01-2007 9:31pm

of course it's possible he has a flush draw. But for every time he has AhQh, there are 3 times he has AQ suited not in hearts.

ocallagh · 07-01-2007 9:37pm

rb_ie wrote:

Thanks lads.

While I agree that it is unlikely that he has a flush draw, since the villain is LAG I presume we can't put hands like ATs/o, AQs/o and depending on past hands showndown, possibly QTs/o and a host of suited broadway cards out of his raise calling range, especially with the stacks so deep. Where my thinking lies is that checking here could give him the opportunity to draw out on us, an A,Q,T on the turn could be troublesome for us, as well as any heart. I would have just thought that betting out with our made hand, therefore making him pay for any draw he may have (which he will more often miss) would be the better option? It could indeed kill the action, but with such deep stacks are we not better to try and build a big pot here since we've such a strong hand? Also, betting out here would give us information on what our opponent holds (i.e whether hes drawing or not) and also, we may be able to get him to call along with other hands such as AK,KQ,KJ etc and therefore build a bigger pot for us, no?

I could be entirely flawed my thinking though, its just how I viewed the situation the OP was in.

I was just referring to RT's post where if we had shallow stacks checking might be better. I agree, in this case betting is probably a better option