a poker argument with my friend...

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 2:52pm #1

Ok so I was having a conversation with a friend of mine about poker.
We got in to this massive argument about poker and as I know he reads board I told him that I will post up the argument and will let others say who is wrong or right.
Basically the argument started like this:
He was playing a hand where he called a raise with AJ and flop came J high.
Dude bets near half the pot and my friend raises him.
I told him I don’t like the raise here much because its not the best play (if he does it all the time) and I don’t know what happened but eventually I said I rather raise with 78 there than with AJ.
He then proceeded to tell me that I don’t have a clue what im talking about and to suggest that a raise with 78 on 2 3 J is better than to raise with AJ on the same board just shows how clueless I am.
I explained where I was coming from and that the raise with 78 has a better expectation than the raise with AJ but he insisted that I didn’t know what I was talking about and that there is no way that I could be right or convince him at all that what I said had any merits at all.
I then got in to a discussion of the theory behind semi bluffing but then again when I said I would often check behind with AcKc on Tc 9h 2c but bet with 5h6h for example on the same board he started to call me mad and again said that there is no way I could be right here.
As I know he is waiting for me to post this and he is reading this board could you please argue about the above ?

EWheelChair · 22-09-2006 2:58pm

The guy betting out is probably just protecting his raise prefolp, trying to steal with middle pocket pair or AK. Depending on the suits i would reraise here.

I don't really understand your argument.

Sangre · 22-09-2006 3:01pm

So Gholi only raises with semi/total bluffs and never made hands?
Thanks for the tell!

5starpool · 22-09-2006 3:02pm

I would sometimes do both. In both cases, unless there is a strong draw on board, you are beaten one way or another if re-reraised.

Ollieboy · 22-09-2006 3:12pm

Ok mate, there's nothing wrong with your views and I'm guessing your mate is newish to poker or as read Harringtons books etc and thinks this is the bible. And again, thats is style and it works for him and there's nothing wrong with it.

What he doesn't understand is the different style's of poker players and your a totally different style to most players. Thats all. I dont agree with your style as its given away a lot of chips cheaply and involves having to play the flop correctly based on its texture. But it can be very effect as you can get great implied odds, but its a style that doesn't suit everyone. Also, when you change gears in the later stages of a tourney, this should be a style the better players can change too to win tourneys.

Norwich Fan Rob · 22-09-2006 3:17pm

if u raise with AJ, u only get re raised when u are behind, and people will fold 88 99, maybe KJ etc..............this is bad............if u raise with 78, u still get re raised by QQ+ and big hands, but may get people to fold 88, 99 etc, this is good..........basically a strong re raise with a marginal hand like AJ on a J high flop is no better than a raise with 78 in many cases. (in fact in the sense that it scares of hands u have beat, it can be deemed worse).

However, randomly raising guys who have raised pre, and bet the flop with no pair and no draw is not a play i particularly like..........

Further more, calling a raise pre with a hand like 78s CAN have a bigger expectation than AJ..............with 78s your hand is disguised and u can stack a big pair, with AJ your hand is likely to be dominated, and if an A falls and your op has no A, they will fold, of they have an A, u are likely out kicked........similar probs on J high pair with regard to poss overpairs..........78s is a great hand as long as u can get away from it if you partially hit.

mewso · 22-09-2006 3:17pm

Few things here.

When I have an arguement with a "friend" it tends to be civilised but anyway...

I'll be the first idiot to hold up my hand and ask how raising with 78 has a higher expectation than AJ in the situation described. i.e. I would be interested to know. (I'm always the guy who asks someone to explain a big word they used in a conversation simply because I know they don't expect anyone to ask)

Are you saying raising with 78 here is a semi-bluff? Don't you need outs for it to qualify as a semi-bluff?

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 3:19pm

Ok this is not really going my way so far

Ok maybe im leaving out details :
In the first case the pot is raised and we have TPTK and the raiser now bets half the pot.
I argued that a reraise here does not do us much good.
villain will drop almost everything we have beat and will call/raise with everything that has us beat. I argued that if we just call we can get him to bluff at us on the turn (good if we have him beat) or we keep the pot small by just calling his bets (good if he has us beat).
As an example I told him that you will get AK to fold here majority of the time but you don’t really want AK to fold here because he will put more money in to the pot if an A hits the turn or river.
By the same token if you raise with 78 here again you will prob get AK /AQ to fold but in this case you want them to fold as you are currently miles behind them hands. That’s why the 78 raise I think has a better expectation.
This is completely style independent and is based purely on expectation and poker math.

ianmc38 · 22-09-2006 3:24pm

In hand 1 if we raise the flop villain will fold most hands that we beat and call or raise with hands that beat us. That's poker 101.

mewso · 22-09-2006 3:25pm

Yes makes sense. I insist it's a bluff though with 78 not a semi-bluff

5starpool · 22-09-2006 3:26pm

but if it does go to showdown (for some reason) you will, some of the time be ahead with AJ, but never with 78 (barring miracle turn/river). Depends who you are playing against and what type of draws miss etc as to the frequency of being ahead.

I think what you might be trying to say is that stealing with absolutely nothing is better than reraising with a decent holding that may or may not be behind. You will never lose a big pot with 78 in this position but may with AJ. Is that sort of what you are saying? I don't understand your use of the word 'expectation'. This all depends on the standard of players. If they are always married to any pair then AJ has way better expectation. If they are good players it is more tricky.

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 3:28pm

musician wrote:

Yes makes sense. I insist it's a bluff though with 78 not a semi-bluff

oh yes it is a bluff and not a semi bluff at all.but a bluff that has a higher EV IMO than the riase with "made hand" .
the semi bluff discussion is related to the later discussion but yes my bet with 78 is meant as a total bluff.

Hitman Actual · 22-09-2006 3:31pm

The questions are confusing. First one, you're saying you call a pre-flop raise with AJ or 78, and that raising a lead bet by the pf raiser on a 23J flop has a better expectation with 78 than AJ?

I doubt either case is profitable, and I'm struggling to see how it's less un-profitable with 78 than AJ. I don't like the raise with AJ for a start; you only fold out worse hands (apart from idiot KJ/QJ players) and get called or re-raised by better hands.

Actually, as I'm typing this, I'm thinking about FTOP with the 78 raise, so when you get opponents to make mistakes by folding better hands, it probably is more profitable than the AJ raise (opponents will make less mistakes when you raise with AJ). So, yeah, I see your point from this perspective.

Norwich Fan Rob · 22-09-2006 3:32pm

on a J high flop, 78 doesnt have MORE expectation than AJ, if u re raise and are deep, the expectation is prolly similar, u either get re raised and should fold, or u take it down.

Pre flop, in a deep cash game, 78 has much more +EV than AJ, in fact AJ into a raise prolly has negative implied odds.

Hitman Actual · 22-09-2006 3:35pm

Second question: Betting with the 56h isn't a semi-bluff, it's a pure bluff. The semi-bluff only applies with betting the AKc in that spot. Or am I missing something?

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 3:35pm

5starpool wrote:

but if it does go to showdown (for some reason) you will, some of the time be ahead with AJ, but never with 78 (barring miracle turn/river). Depends who you are playing against and what type of draws miss etc as to the frequency of being ahead.

I think what you might be trying to say is that stealing with absolutely nothing is better than reraising with a decent holding that may or may not be behind. You will never lose a big pot with 78 in this position but may with AJ. Is that sort of what you are saying? I don't understand your use of the word 'expectation'. This all depends on the standard of players. If they are always married to any pair then AJ has way better expectation. If they are good players it is more tricky.

A bets expectation is exactly that.
The expectation of that particular bet.
We are not talking about show down value or pot equity here.
You are making a single wager and trying to decide which is better and that’s it.
Its also safe to assume that in both case you are facing the same kind of opponent who is of average skill.(it gets too complicated if you bring in opponent attributes here even though I agree it does play a huge part in your expectation here).

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 3:39pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

on a J high flop, 78 doesnt have MORE expectation than AJ, if u re raise and are deep, the expectation is prolly similar, u either get re raised and should fold, or u take it down.

Pre flop, in a deep cash game, 78 has much more +EV than AJ, in fact AJ into a raise prolly has negative implied odds.

If you get a better hand to fold then that’s good for you.
If you get a worse hand to fold then that’s not good for you.
Raising with 78 has the ability to get the better hand than yours to fold which allows you to take the down the pot that’s why it does have a higher expectation.

mewso · 22-09-2006 3:39pm

It's simply that raising and taking the pot with 78 is money you had no right to win or +EV wheras raising with AJ may well lose money in that you win less than you should have. (-EV). Sorry just trying to get in right in my own head not for you geniuses.

Hitman Actual · 22-09-2006 3:40pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

on a J high flop, 78 doesnt have MORE expectation than AJ, if u re raise and are deep, the expectation is prolly similar, u either get re raised and should fold, or u take it down.

But you might get 88-TT to fold, which is good for the 78 bluff, but not the AJ TPTK. I think Gholi has a good point here. When you hold AJ, your opponents make much fewer mistakes. I'm not saying that the 78 raise is definately +EV, but it should be better than the AJ raise.

Hitman Actual · 22-09-2006 3:50pm

lenny_leonard wrote:

Second question: Betting with the 56h isn't a semi-bluff, it's a pure bluff. The semi-bluff only applies with betting the AKc in that spot. Or am I missing something?

Come on Gholi, explain the second situation a bit better! I'm bored at work at the golf updates are too slow in coming.

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 4:00pm

lenny_leonard wrote:

Come on Gholi, explain the second situation a bit better! I'm bored at work at the golf updates are too slow in coming.

The second situation is a bit more complex.
Obviously betting here with AcKc is not bad as you can improve and win the hand. however if you get reraised to a point where you will have to let your hand go then the result is disastrous for you because you have just prised your self out on a very good situation by raising but if you had check behind then that would not happen.
When you bet with 56 you have no fear of getting reraised and your hand does not fear getting prised out of anything and you can just release the hand if that happens.
That combined with the fact that your bluff can take the pot there and then makes this an ok play. again im not saying betting here with Aks is bad by any means. and in my original post I said I sometimes check behind with it .i suppose its more balancing play because if you always semi-bluff then your opponents may catch on and come over the top .

ntlbell · 22-09-2006 4:03pm

lenny_leonard wrote:

Come on Gholi, explain the second situation a bit better! I'm bored at work at the golf updates are too slow in coming.

watch it live online then...

bill_ashmount · 22-09-2006 4:12pm

My head hurts

padraig_f · 22-09-2006 4:16pm

I'll usually just go ahead and raise the AJ on that flop. I think the flop is often the best chance you get to get paid off with your hand. So many players slow-play their big hands that a flop raise is often seen as not that strong (and may be interpreted as a bluff trying to snap off a continuation bet).

Whereas if you call on a flop with no draws and bet the turn, that's a pretty strong-looking play. There are also added problems flat-calling:

1. you give him an extra card to outdraw you
2. a further scare card might come that kills action you would've gotten on the flop
3. if he feels he's behind, he only has one card to improve now and so is less likely to call.

Gholimoli · 22-09-2006 4:25pm

padraig_f wrote:

I'll usually just go ahead and raise the AJ on that flop. I think the flop is often the best chance you get to get paid off with your hand. So many players slow-play their big hands that a flop raise is often seen as not that strong (and may be interpreted as a bluff trying to snap off a continuation bet).

Whereas if you call on a flop with no draws and bet the turn, that's a pretty strong-looking play. There are also added problems flat-calling:

1. you give him an extra card to outdraw you
2. a further scare card might come that kills action you would've gotten on the flop
3. if he feels he's behind, he only has one card to improve now and so is less likely to call.

Padraig,
I don’t think AJ on j high flop in a raised pot is really a big hand after the raiser is leading.
I would some what agree with what your saying about betting with AJ in a tournament situation but then again that’s because I don’t mind if my opponent folds AK here that much as I do have my tourney life to worry about as well so the chances of me getting out drawn kind of compensates for the value I lose.
Also im not discussing about making moves here so calling the flop bet and leading the turn is not what im talking about at all.
My argument was purely raising the bet and which hand to do it with 78 or AJ.

Ste05 · 22-09-2006 4:30pm

By the sounds of this argument, it all started when discussing the merits of a raise with AJ in this situation as compared to a call.

A call is the superior play, without a shadow of a doubt. I think the point Gholi is trying to make with the comparison is that raising with AJ in this situation basically turns your TPTK into a bluff, as every hand you beat will fold, and only the hands that have you beat will put any more money into the pot.

However the expectation for both the raise with AJ and the 78 are basically the same, as they both have the expectation of taking the pot down here and now or folding to a re-raise. In the hands of a bad player the raise with 78 would have a higher expectation because they won't get stacked by AA, KK or QQ, whereas they might get stacked if they have AJ.

But in the hands of a decent player who can fold TPTK then the expectation difference is neutral. Although IMO marginally in favour of the AJ, for the tiny % of the time that a non-believing donkey fish with 88, 99, 1010 or AK calls the raise and the hand gets checked down.

But as said above raising here with AJ is effectively bluffing with TPTK.

padraig_f · 22-09-2006 4:41pm

Gholimoli wrote:

Padraig,
I don’t think AJ on j high flop in a raised pot is really a big hand after the raiser is leading.

Oh yeah I'm not saying AJ is a monster. My point is that a flop raise may be interpreted as being weaker than a flop call followed by a turn bet, and thus be more likely to get paid off with worse hands. TT/99 might think they're still good, AK might see one more card.

I also don't think he bluffs much on the turn when you flat-call. put yourself in his shoes - tightish player calls your pre-flop raise and then calls a bet on a J 2 3 flop. What do you think he has? Are you going to bluff the turn with ace high?

Ste05 · 22-09-2006 4:49pm

Padraig,

In this situation the only thing our AJ is good for, is catching bluffs. There's no value in raising or betting on this board at any later stage in the hand.

ianmc38 · 22-09-2006 4:54pm

Raising with 78 will get AK to fold. This is good.

Raising with AJ will also get AK to fold. This is bad.

fuzzbox · 22-09-2006 5:01pm

Gholi - this situation has a lot to do with your opponents and the texture of the board.

If your opponent is one who is likely to stack off with KJ/QJ/JT/TT/99 etc, then raising with AJ is way more +EV than raising with 78.
If your opponent is one who is likely to fold those same set of hands (or a goodly proportion of them), but will pay you off more than zero times on the turn or river then raising with AJ is inferior to calling with it, and raising with 78 every now and then is a good play.

Ste05 · 22-09-2006 5:06pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Raising with 78 will get AK to fold. This is good.

Raising with AJ will also get AK to fold. This is bad.

Raising with 78 will get AK to fold. This earns us the pot, If we are re-raised we fold.

Raising with AJ will also get AK to fold. This also wins us the pot, If we are re-raised we fold.

The result is the same.

EDIT: Fuzz makes a good point regarding our opponent, I'm just referring to a standard semi-decent ABC player.

a poker argument with my friend...

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