CB channels for Church broadcasts etc.

watty · 22-06-2006 5:16pm #1

In the UK they call it Community Radio.

ComReg’s consultation1 on the strategy for the management of the radio spectrum proposed that
ComReg permit WPAS in the 27.6 to 27.99 MHz band to meet the needs of religious and other
community organisations. This is intended to provide a public address system to facilitate the
social inclusion of, and meet the needs of the people who are housebound be they sick, disabled
and/or elderly, using wireless technology.

Some churchs have been using CB for a while for Mass etc Now Comreg is "regularising" the situation like Ofcom has on UK CB band.

Application
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg0626a.pdf

Guidelines
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg0626.pdf

Channels:
Channel Frequency Channel Frequency
LW01 27.60125 UW01 27.60500
LW02 27.61125 UW02 27.61500
LW03 27.62125 UW03 27.62500
LW04 27.63125 UW04 27.63500
LW05 27.64125 UW05 27.64500
LW06 27.65125 UW06 27.65500
LW07 27.66125 UW07 27.66500
LW08 27.67125 UW08 27.67500
LW09 27.68125 UW09 27.68500
LW10 27.69125 UW10 27.69500
LW11 27.70125 UW11 27.70500
LW12 27.71125 UW12 27.71500
LW13 27.72125 UW13 27.72500
LW14 27.73125 UW14 27.73500
LW15 27.74125 UW15 27.74500
LW16 27.75125 UW16 27.75500
LW17 27.76125 UW17 27.76500
LW18 27.77125 UW18 27.77500
LW19 27.78125 UW19 27.78500
LW20 27.79125 UW20 27.79500
LW21 27.80125 UW21 27.80500
LW22 27.81125 UW22 27.81500
LW23 27.82125 UW23 27.82500
LW24 27.83125 UW24 27.83500
LW25 27.84125 UW25 27.84500
LW26 27.85125 UW26 27.85500
LW27 27.86125 UW27 27.86500
LW28 27.87125 UW28 27.87500
LW29 27.88125 UW29 27.88500
LW30 27.89125 UW30 27.89500
LW31 27.90125 UW31 27.90500
LW32 27.91125 UW32 27.91500
LW33 27.92125 UW33 27.92500
LW34 27.93125 UW34 27.93500
LW35 27.94125 UW35 27.94500
LW36 27.95125 UW36 27.95500
LW37 27.96125 UW37 27.96500
LW38 27.97125 UW38 27.97500
LW39 27.98125 UW39 27.98500
LW40 27.99125 UW40 27.99500

The service will not be available for reception on standard domestic broadcast receivers.

Well scanners, communications receivers and some multiband radios will receive it.

ComReg has made frequency spectrum available for WPAS which is above the CB4 band.
The following band is available for WPAS licensing:
• HF (27.60-27.99MHz)

4 CB – Citizens' Band (CB) radios are used solely for the purposes of transmitting and receiving spoken messages as
opposed to WPAS which is retransmission system.

Indeed many non-approved CB radios will work.

Well:
* It doesn't cover the lads illegally rebroadcasting the UK UCB. They should stop or be stopped.
* No excuse now for badly set up illegal BandII TX sets.

I wonder how well this will work and who is selling the gear?

Mossy Monk · 22-06-2006 6:36pm

would it be possible to pick up one of these broadcasts on a FM radio

in the 90's i could regularly hear mass on the radio during the evenings

L1011 · 22-06-2006 6:52pm

No, and thats because (to this day) lots of churches are pirate broadcasters...

watty · 22-06-2006 8:01pm

Some FM radios. But not the normal kind!

Apparently they allow 1W AM or 5W FM and suggest that SSB is OK too!

Any old "160 ch" "All Mode" CB and some 80ch models will work.

The Sony ICF-2001D all band radio will work for SSB and AM, but not "offically" FM on that band, though ANY AM set will happily receive Narrow band FM (The slope of the IF filter if you slightly detune converts the signal to AM, which is then received. Not the best method, but it works.).

Cheap scanners will work for AM and FM.
Expensive ones SSB.

Some Amateur "handie Talkies" will do the AM on those frequencies. A few expensive ones SSB. Only "All Mode" HF Amateur "rigs" will do FM/AM/SSB receive on that band.

Cheap old general coverage receivers like FRG7700 will do AM/FM/SSB on that band.

Old CB rigs that can do 26.5MHz to 28MHz SSB/AM/FM are about 40 Euro. I got one a few years ago and added two diodes + 3 resistors (or vice versa) to get it to do 28MHz .. 29.5MHz to drive SSB transvertors for 144MHz and 430MHz bands.

I noticed some churches recently have added FM Band II dipoles to their CB aerial mast. Easy to spot the "pirates".

Foggy43 · 22-06-2006 9:37pm

CB Radio! I thought it was dead. It must be over 20 years since I knew people who had it. Didn't it work perfectly with Band 1 TV. Every time you pressed send you lost your TV picture. Sorry your neighbour did. :rolleyes:

27.6mhz to 27.99mhz was illegal. There was a legal version but wasn't that VHF some where in the 400mhz region? I can't remember.

bigpaddy2004 · 22-06-2006 10:36pm

Why oh Why is it CB radio was never legal in Ireland? Why did'nt comreg ever regulate it?

watty · 22-06-2006 11:07pm

It was legalised I don't know when ago. Comreg has the spec on its site for Legal CBs.

Specialist shops sell legal CE marked CBs.

That's why it isn't so popular any more!

No VHF CB here.

PMR446 is legal in 446MHz and also PMR864 864MHz Austrialia has UHF CB.

Everything is on www.comreg.ie from wireless car door keys to legal CBs

bigpaddy2004 · 22-06-2006 11:18pm

Thats very interesting, I did'nt know they have a spec for cb radio now. When did all that happen? I would'nt be bothered going into that site, its very poorly laid out, I would only get lost somewhere.

cast_iron · 23-06-2006 12:06am

It seems a bit of a nuisance that it won't be regulated on FM instead. The only reported problem i read of was the possible Dublin Airport one.

watty wrote:

Well scanners, communications receivers and some multiband radios will receive it.

The cheapest retail scanner i've seen on sale in Ireland doesn't go as low as 27 Mhz.

So what does it mean the average mass listener will need to tune into the mass?

Also, some churches have been broadcasting TV pictures to the surrounding area. It doesn't appear there are any plans to regulate this, or is there?

watty · 23-06-2006 9:03am

Here is a list of things you don't need a licence application for
http://www.comreg.ie/sector/default.asp?S=4&NavID=139&M=#100145

Exemption of Citizen's Band (CB Radios) Order, 1998

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/SI436of1998.pdf

(1) In this Order—
"AM citizens' band (CB) radio equipment" means double sideband and/or single sideband
amplitude modulated radio equipment which complies with ETS 300 433;
"Citizens' band (CB) radios" means AM citizens' band (CB) radio equipment and PR 27 radio
equipment;
"ETS 300 135" means the European Telecommunication Standard entitled "Radio Equipment and
Systems; Angle-modulated Citizens' Band radio equipment (CEPT PR 27 Radio Equipment);
Technical characteristics and methods of measurement" prepared by an Experts' Group of the
Radio Equipment and Systems (RES) Technical Committee of the European Telecommunications
Standards Institute (ETSI), as amended;
"ETS 300 433" means the European Telecommunication Standard entitled "Radio Equipment and
Systems (RES); Double Side Band (DSB) and/or Single Side Band (SSB) amplitude modulated
Citizens' Band (CB) radio equipment; Technical characteristics and methods of measurement"
produced by the Radio Equipment and Systems (RES) Technical Committee of the European
Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI), as amended;
"PR 27 radio equipment" means angle-modulated radio equipment which complies with ETS 300
135;
"radio equipment" means apparatus for wireless telegraphy that is capable of being used for
transmitting and receiving messages by means of radiated electro-magnetic waves.
(2) A word or expression that is used in this Order and in ETS 300 135 or ETS 300 433 shall
have the meaning in this Order that it has in ETS 300 135 or, as appropriate, ETS 300 433.
4. Notwithstanding the Wireless Telegraphy (Personal Radio Licence) Regulations, 1982 (S.I.
No. 8 of 1982), the following class of apparatus for wireless telegraphy is hereby declared to be a
class of apparatus for wireless telegraphy to which section 3 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act,
1926 (No. 45 of 1926), is not to apply, namely citizens' band (CB) radios used solely for the
purposes of transmitting and receiving spoken messages.

In the UK they were only allowed FM (angle modulation). Oddly the actual channels are not specified. You would have to find the EU / ETS documents.

I think power is 5W max. Unlike PMR446 you can fit any aerial you like.

If a CB is modified to work as an Amatuer Radio on 10m (28 to 29.7MHz) with switch it is legal for Amatuer use but on "CB band" can only be used as a receiver. Even with the band switch in CB band and CB legal power it is no longer legal for CB use!

Are they using Video senders (2.4GHz FM) for TV or real AM PAL on VHF/UHF, or MMDS AM PAL 2.5GHz for Mass TV?

flogen · 23-06-2006 1:30pm

I think some churches get a temporary licence; 30 days, broadcasting 1 day a week (sundays), so they cover over half of the year

byrnefm · 23-06-2006 5:42pm

I'm going to keep an eye on the Dublin church broadcasts on my radio scanner this weekend - I can't remember what channels were currently in use but there were at least 20 stations on air that I could pick up in Stillorgan, using both the UK and EU CB bands. I know that some churches used 108.0MHz, so I guess they're still off the air (well, to be legal) then...

I wish they'd announce where they're broadcasting from - it's like picking up SW stations without a SW radio guide

Ulsterman 1690 · 23-06-2006 10:00pm

The church stations using the FM broadcast band are totally illegal and always will be for the simple reason that there isint enough room on the band to give every church (chapel/mosque/synagouge/temple/ashram/meetinghall/whatever) out there a broadcasting licence.

27 MHz is a good solution it doesnt take up the bandwidth that broadcast FM does (dont need "FM stereo quality" to hear church services)

Most of the UCB transmissions have (thankfully) dissappeared from the broadcast band. Now that they have a legal alternative the church stations will hopefully do the same.

As for the cost of recievers surely there are thousands of secondhand CB-sets out there

Also, some churches have been broadcasting TV pictures to the surrounding area. It doesn't appear there are any plans to regulate this, or is there?

Havent heard that one (are you sure youre not confusing it with the deflectors who carry EWTN) but if its true its madness !

lawhec · 23-06-2006 10:42pm

I know of at least two Catholic churches in Tyrone that transmit mass on 108.0 FM :rolleyes: those that don't use FM often use the "CB" band. I remember when I was younger the parish bulliten would advertise this, offering to sell the receivers for £90 to "cover the cost of licencing":rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: and all these receivers were was the multiband 54-177MHz & CB radio receivers that I could have picked up in the local shop for £20.

I've heard of a story of a church in Dublin using WIDEBAND FM in the CB band. Just about every swear word under the sun in various different accents have been heard when its broadcast, especially when there's a lift!

cast_iron · 24-06-2006 2:32am

watty wrote:

Are they using Video senders (2.4GHz FM) for TV or real AM PAL on VHF/UHF, or MMDS AM PAL 2.5GHz for Mass TV?

UHF, channel 50 something if i remember correctly. This in an area capable of picking up UHF and VHF RTE, UHF TV/TG4, and a local deflector (4 main English channels).

Being in Dublin alot, i'm not as up to date these days. Truthfully, i can only say i've last seen it on air about a year ago. I'm not sure it's still running since the issue became public a few months back, but I can check it's current status out though.

But it did broadcast a 24 hour live feed of the alter to the surrounding area (Deffo not EWTN). It was actually sep up to broadcast direct from the church to the local nursing home - ie. for those who were unable to make to 10am mass every morning!
It was/is a low power signal, at a rough estimation - 5 mile max range of acceptable reception.

Didn't exactly make life easy when installing an aerial setup in it's line of sight!

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

As for the cost of recievers surely there are thousands of secondhand CB-sets out there

I don't doubt it. Though for the average mass listener (typically elderly, possibly housebound), tracking the likes of these down isn't exactly easy. Same applies for any great deals that may be on Ebay and the like.

Northern Correspondent wrote:

I've heard of a story of a church in Dublin using WIDEBAND FM in the CB band. Just about every swear word under the sun in various different accents have been heard when its broadcast, especially when there's a lift!

Classic....only in Ireland:D

Ulsterman 1690 · 24-06-2006 8:31am

But it did broadcast a 24 hour live feed of the alter to the surrounding area

Sounds like rip roaring fun TV that :rolleyes:

But then again I suppose it beats Big brother

byrnefm · 24-06-2006 11:42am

Wrt radio equipment for picking up 'CB' ("Church Band"

), a church near me uses the following cheap receiver (well, looks very similar to it, anyway):

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46459&criteria=airband&doy=24m6

I can't remember for certain but I think the church that I heard 108.0MHz broadcasts in SW Donegal transmitted at either 0.25W or 0.5W. Either way, the range was under two miles and due to its mountainous terrain, not even all the parishioners within this small range could pick it up!

Btw, aren't the LW01-LW40 channels the same as the UK CB band channel allocations?

Smeagol · 24-06-2006 1:58pm

I can pick up twelve ! different churches on my CBradio, all on AM between 26.965 and 27.405 Mhz. There are three alone from Sligo town. The two churches I "inspected" had standard 40ch AM CBradios (Uniden) with half wavelength vertical pins. And because of the height they're quite strong.
Much to the annoyance of continental "breakers" in skip conditions. And I'm not too amused either. Many DX-QSO's were (are) interrupted by the sudden break of organmusic.:eek:

L1011 · 24-06-2006 2:27pm

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Sounds like rip roaring fun TV that :rolleyes:

But then again I suppose it beats Big brother

I dunno why I can see Davina presenting it...

"And NOW... back in the BIG GOD HOUSE.... Mary from down the road has come in.... ADORE the eucharist. Its all go in in BG1650!"

Wishbone Ash · 24-06-2006 2:48pm

byrnefm wrote:

Wrt radio equipment for picking up 'CB' ("Church Band" ), a church near me uses the following cheap receiver (well, looks very similar to it, anyway):

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46459&criteria=airband&doy=24m6

I can't remember for certain but I think the church that I heard 108.0MHz broadcasts in SW Donegal transmitted at either 0.25W or 0.5W. Either way, the range was under two miles and due to its mountainous terrain, not even all the parishioners within this small range could pick it up!

Btw, aren't the LW01-LW40 channels the same as the UK CB band channel allocations?

St Eunan's Cathedral in Letterkenny was transmitting on the FM Broadcast band until fairly recently, 108.0 I think.

My local church in Dublin broadcasts on Channel 19 (27.185) but I'm not sure if they are still doing so.

Smeagol · 24-06-2006 3:03pm

My local church in Dublin broadcasts on Channel 19 (27.185)

Entertaining the truckers.

flogen · 24-06-2006 3:08pm

Would it not make sense (or would it be possible) to designate one FM frequency (let's say 108fm) as the frequency for religious broadcasts (covering church, mosque, sinagogue etc.) across the country, force each church to bid for a licence for their locality, so that a church in Finglas, Dublin with the licence would broadcast mass to its local area, but people listening to 108 FM in, say, Swords, Dublin would get their local church's broadcast... the same applying across the country??
It would then only be 1 frequency and it would regulate the whole thing, and make it easier for people to find the right FM spot?

Wishbone Ash · 24-06-2006 3:16pm

flogen wrote:

Would it not make sense (or would it be possible) to designate one FM frequency (let's say 108fm) as the frequency for religious broadcasts (covering church, mosque, sinagogue etc.) across the country, force each church to bid for a licence for their locality, so that a church in Finglas, Dublin with the licence would broadcast mass to its local area, but people listening to 108 FM in, say, Swords, Dublin would get their local church's broadcast... the same applying across the country??
It would then only be 1 frequency and it would regulate the whole thing, and make it easier for people to find the right FM spot?

It might be difficult with churches in close proximity. Some towns have several RC churches alone (eg Drogheda) before one considers the churches of other faiths.

Does anyone know if Churches other than RC transmit their services? I'm not aware of any.

Ulsterman 1690 · 24-06-2006 4:32pm

In Northern Ireland the majority of churches using 27MHz appear to be Roman Catholic but Ive heard a couple of Presbyterian churches on there as well. And of course until recently there was a large MW transmiter in Monaghan relaying UCB

108 couldnt be used because its actually an airband frequency. It would be difficult to find a frequency that is clear EVERYWHERE in a country. Even if one could there might be issues with stations on nearby frequencies or at 10.7 MHz IF spacings.

Anyway it is a waste of bandwidth putting what is essentially a part time speech service on an FM frequency but 27MHz is a good compromise solution although maybe some of them should be let run a bit more power than standard CB -say 25 watts in order to overcome the insensetivity of cheap recievers and the Italian skip interference.

If different religions were to share the same frequency it would have to be fairly tightly regulated (some kind of timeshare maybe) and I could see some churches (accidently or otherwise) jamming others transmissions

flogen · 24-06-2006 5:05pm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It might be difficult with churches in close proximity. Some towns have several RC churches alone (eg Drogheda) before one considers the churches of other faiths.

Does anyone know if Churches other than RC transmit their services? I'm not aware of any.

That's true, but I suppose it's something that could be ironed out in practice, ensuring that different church's licence range doesn't infringe on another.

Other religions causes a problem too, I mean a mosque in central Dublin doesn't actually have all it's faithful around it, and if it were to broadcast within a 2 mile radius of the building it would probably serve more people of RC religions than their own... perhaps that's why something like that wouldn't happen now, too messy to run it on a single FM in a multi-religious country... online broadcasts are a rational solution but obviously most people it would benefit wouldn't have PC's and broadband connections anyway.

watty · 25-06-2006 8:22pm

The "CB" solution gives I think 80channels and won't cause much havoc, and is channels above the "regular" 40.

A single FM VHF BandII allocation wouldn't work.

Churches that haven't broadcast are considering it now, as some before would have regard the pirate broadcasts as "sinful".

In Dublin you can't have C Of I, 100s of Catholic, Presbyterians, Methodists, indepants, Mormons, JW, Bahai, Russian Orthodox, Hindu, Moslems and Jews all on same channel

(though some are friday and saturday)

Antenna · 25-06-2006 9:18pm

byrnefm wrote:

Wrt radio equipment for picking up 'CB' ("Church Band" ), a church near me uses the following cheap receiver (well, looks very similar to it, anyway):

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46459&criteria=airband&doy=24m6

...
..

Btw, aren't the LW01-LW40 channels the same as the UK CB band channel allocations?

Those cheap receivers receive AM at 27MHz. They will receive narrow-band FM (used by churches) by slope detection, but audio will be distorted. Also more prone to interference and fiddly to tune than an actual narrowband-FM receiver for 27MHz.

Regarding the UK FM CB channels, what was the historical reason behind those awkward carrier frequencies i.e. 27.60125 going to 5 places after the decimal point, for a system using 10kHz channel steps? Could they not have planned carrier frequencies rounded to 5 or 10kHz multiples

Ulsterman 1690 · 25-06-2006 9:30pm

Dunno but perhaps a more relevent question would be why was there ever a "UK27/81" CB band at all. Couldnt they have just used the same frequencies as the US (with FM instead of AM)

Theyve more or less eventually ended up doing this anyway since the "UK" channels are now only legal for Church use

Antenna · 25-06-2006 9:40pm

watty wrote:

No VHF CB here.

legally yes

Though some CB enthusiasts in this country have been known to (of course illegally) use the 146-148 MHz range (even a few naughty radio experimenters/hams - not using their callsigns of course)
I assume using amateur 2 metre gear intended or adjusted for the American 2m band (their 2m band is 144-148 MHz unlike 144-146 here)

Ulsterman 1690 · 25-06-2006 10:22pm

Some commercial gear can (so Im told) be easily modified to cover the entire range from 152 to 174 MHz since its mass produced for various markets (ham, marine, two way radio etc) and then programmed with the band limits for whatever the end customer requires.

Similarly some HF (shortwave) gear can be made to cover from the top end of the Meduiumwave broadcast band right up to 30 MHz

I have witnessed some hams at a radio club transmitting on some wierd and wonderful HF frequencies onetime although obviously without giving their callsigns

Wishbone Ash · 02-07-2006 12:25pm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

My local church in Dublin broadcasts on Channel 19 (27.185) but I'm not sure if they are still doing so.

They now appear to be transmitting on 40.1875 mHz which AFAIK is a cordless telephone frequency.

Ulsterman 1690 · 02-07-2006 2:55pm

Next thingh theyll be on 121.5 MHz :rolleyes:

byrnefm · 03-07-2006 9:05am

I detected only 11 listenable stations on CB yesterday from churches from my spot in Stillorgan - a few months ago, it was 20 or 22. Very few were in the now-legal band and two were inbetween the EU and CB bands! I didn't think of looking for any in the cordless phone band

watty · 05-07-2006 4:54pm

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Some commercial gear can (so Im told) be easily modified to cover the entire range from 152 to 174 MHz since its mass produced for various markets (ham, marine, two way radio etc) and then programmed with the band limits for whatever the end customer requires.

Similarly some HF (shortwave) gear can be made to cover from the top end of the Meduiumwave broadcast band right up to 30 MHz

I have witnessed some hams at a radio club transmitting on some wierd and wonderful HF frequencies onetime although obviously without giving their callsigns

135Mhz to 175MHz or even wider!

Antenna · 06-07-2006 6:50pm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

They now appear to be transmitting on 40.1875 mHz which AFAIK is a cordless telephone frequency.

Are you sure this is not due to overload of your scanner of a strong church signal actually around 27Mhz ?

Wishbone Ash · 06-07-2006 7:46pm

Antenna wrote:

Are you sure this is not due to overload of your scanner of a strong church signal actually around 27Mhz ?

Possibly - my knowledge of the technical aspects of this subject are very limited, but I don't hear them on 27mHz anymore.

CB channels for Church broadcasts etc.

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