It's official "Docklands" station is only temporary

aliveandkicking · 11-05-2006 7:08pm #1

Condition of planning permission:

2. This permission is temporary, to expire ten years from the date of the decision. The development and associated works shall be removed from the site on or before that date. Reason: To allow adequate time for the proposed Interconnector to be constructed, in the interest of the proper planning and development of the area.

So Irish Rail are wasting 30 million building a station they will have to demolish in less than ten years. :mad:

enterprise · 11-05-2006 7:32pm

It was always stated that Docklands was to be a temp station until the Interconnector is built.

dr zoidberg · 11-05-2006 7:32pm

Look at it from their point of view, they don't want this station to be too successful - that would lead to doubts about the need for the interconnector (largely from the anti-investment media), and probably a further long-fingering of the project by the government.

murphaph · 11-05-2006 7:51pm

What sort of nation does this sort of thing? To sell a vast site from public ownership in return for 1 subteranean station (highly inflexible-no diesel services can use it). It's absolutely pathetic.

Victor · 12-05-2006 1:15am

aliveandkicking wrote:

So Irish Rail are wasting 30 million building a station they will have to demolish in less than ten years. :mad:

No, the Docklands station will only cost about 10% of that.

The idea behind the 10 year permission is to prevent the "ah sure it'll be alright attitude" that risks preventing the Interconnector from being built.

Of course, in 10 years time they can apply for permission to retain it.

The also have to have certain things in place before it can open - bus service, pedestrian monitoring, linear park.

Victor · 12-05-2006 2:37am

Decision here (hopefully it works, just in case its file 1994/06): http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=1994/06&theTabNo=2&backURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=199477>Search%20Criteria</a>%20>%20<a%20href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=259498%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=<a%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=199477>Search%20Criteria</a>'>Search%20Results</a>

aliveandkicking · 12-05-2006 9:46am

Victor wrote:

No, the Docklands station will only cost about 10% of that.

The idea behind the 10 year permission is to prevent the "ah sure it'll be alright attitude" that risks preventing the Interconnector from being built.

Of course, in 10 years time they can apply for permission to retain it.

The also have to have certain things in place before it can open - bus service, pedestrian monitoring, linear park.

If it only costs 3 million then there is little to complain about but 30 million is the figure quoted in all the press reports I have read.

I think what a lot of people visioned the Spencer Dock station to be was apartment block on top, overground rail station taking diesel services at ground floor level and underground station taking DART down an escalator, and Luas stop outside the entrance to it all. It had the potential to be like this but property developers won the day.

spacetweek · 12-05-2006 10:57am

aliveandkicking wrote:

Condition of planning permission:

2. This permission is temporary, to expire ten years from the date of the decision. The development and associated works shall be removed from the site on or before that date. Reason: To allow adequate time for the proposed Interconnector to be constructed, in the interest of the proper planning and development of the area.

So Irish Rail are wasting 30 million building a station they will have to demolish in less than ten years. :mad:

Considering the problems we've all highlighted on this forum with the new station, the news that it will be temporary can only be a good thing. Hopefully the new station will be better thought out than the quick-fit we're getting in the short term, and it will also put pressure on IE to deliver the subterranean station and therefore the Interconnector.

The 30 million probably includes the track and other associated works so the actual station building would be a fair bit less than that. Considering 34000 million is being spent on transport in the next 10 years, it's hardly a lot.

ciaran76 · 12-05-2006 11:03am

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=78

Work to commence on developing underground DART line by Corporate Communications

Iarnród Éireann is commencing work on a new underground second DART line through the heart of the city centre.

The Interconnector rail line, from Docklands to Heuston Station, will complete the quadrupling of the Greater Dublin area’s rail service capacity from 25 million passenger journeys annually now to 100 million passenger journeys.

The company has advertised for specialists to assist in progressing the design of the line, which will dramatically increase frequency and capacity for commuters on DART, Northern, Maynooth and Kildare lines – development plans also include the extension of the DART network to Maynooth, Hazelhatch and Balbriggan.

The Interconnector will be the single most important piece of infrastructure in the state to ensure a modal shift from private to public transport, and free future generations from the gridlock which cripples the Greater Dublin area today.

It is a central part of the Government’s Transport 21 ten-year transport investment plan. It also links all rail modes – DART, Commuter, Intercity, Luas and Metro – to form an integrated cohesive network.

The Docklands to Heuston Interconnector delivers:

- a second high capacity DART line through the heart of the city centre, a 5.2 kilometre underground line

- dramatically increased frequency and capacity for services on the Northern, Maynooth and Kildare lines – the three fastest growing population corridors in the country

- a fully integrated rail network for the Greater Dublin area, linking all modes – DART, Commuter, Intercity, LUAS and Metro – and ensuring that suburb to suburb as well as suburb to city centre journeys can be made by a frequent, high capacity public transport network

- two high capacity DART lines proposed as Balbriggan/Howth to Hazelhatch; and Maynooth/Pace to Bray/Greystones, with DART extensions to some routes likely to be delivered in advance of the Interconnector

- a quadrupling of the number of passenger journeys by DART and Commuter rail annually – up from 25 million today to 100 million

- a critical piece of urban, regional and national infrastructure

Iarnród Éireann will procure specialists in the coming weeks to progress design of the Interconnector by:

- Verifying the proposed alignment

- Developing station designs and layouts

- Carrying out geotechnical ground investigations

- Establishing detailed cost estimates

- Liaising with communities, landowners, local authorities, and other key third parties

- Interface with existing on-going projects affecting the Interconnector route alignment and track designs at the connection point with the current network

The line will dramatically change Iarnród Éireann’s DART and Commuter network. Northern line DART services from Balbriggan and Howth will branch off the existing DART line after Clontarf Road, going underground at:

- Docklands Station where the line will connect with the Red Luas. It continues to

- Pearse, connecting with what will be the Maynooth/Pace to Bray/Greystones DART line; then at

- St Stephen’s Green it connects with the Green Luas and the Metro to the airport before continuing to

- High Street and

- Heuston, linking with Red Luas, and Iarnród Éireann’s Intercity and Commuter services

before continuing above ground to Hazelhatch.

Iarnród Éireann is already working with the Rail Procurement Agency to develop plans for key interchanges such as St Stephen’s Green, which will see DART interchange with Luas and Metro with the opening of the Interconnector; and other key interchanges around the network associated with Transport 21.

Integrated Rail Plan

The Interconnector is the most significant element of Iarnród Éireann’s Greater Dublin Integrated Rail Plan, which also includes short-term projects such as:

- a Docklands station in the Spencer Dock area of Dublin, to provide increased frequency for the growing Maynooth line (opening 2007)

- Docklands Station will also provide the capacity to allow the Clonsilla to Navan line to be constructed in two phases: Clonsilla to Dunboyne/M3 Park and Ride (2009), and M3 to Navan (2015)

- the Kildare Route project: four-tracking of the line between Cherry Orchard and Hazelhatch to provide two dedicated lines for increased commuter services for the growing population along the route (2010)

- resignalling of the city centre area from Connolly to Pearse to increase the number of trains which can operate through the heart of the network, primarily to benefit the growing Northern Commuter line (2009)

- new stations to serve new and growing communities, including Adamstown, Kishogue, ParkWest, Fonthill Road, Grange Road, Pelletstown, Hansfield, Dunboyne, Pace M3 Park ‘n’ Ride and Phoenix Park

dmeehan · 12-05-2006 12:57pm

from rte.ie (http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0512/dart.html)

Work on underground DART begins

12 May 2006 09:58

Iarnród Éireann has announced that it is starting work on a new underground rail link from Dublin docklands to Heuston Station.

It said that the underground DART will quadruple the number of rail passengers in Dublin from the current 25 million journeys a year to 100 million.

Construction work is due to start in 2009 and be completed in 2015.

Transport21 Fan · 12-05-2006 1:37pm

Iarnród Éireann is commencing work on a new underground second DART line through the heart of the city centre.

Reports are coming in that scores of DART drivers are currently checking out conservatory and BMW dealerships looking "stressed"...

Still I am delighted to see the Interconnector being announced as it'll be fantastic when CONNEX and RPA eventually take it over and run it for profit-driven customer service and not Anto and Deco's lifestyle choices.

They can always build a new heavy rail station further down the docks when that area gets developed. How will they otherwise cater for dozens of Navan commuter trains once the Interconnector is built and Docklands is demolished. Is there enough capcity at Connolly?

It's just such a shame that CIE sold off all that prime transport land in Spencer Dock for little or no gain to public transport user.

Victor · 12-05-2006 8:26pm

aliveandkicking wrote:

If it only costs 3 million then there is little to complain about but 30 million is the figure quoted in all the press reports I have read.

Realise that this is not the "Spencer Dock Station" that we know and love. This is "Docklands Station".

Actually, speaking to the guy in CIE (this is a CIE project, not an IE project), we were wondering who does have the right to name railway stations. I understand, most have obvious names, but the 1966 changes were by CIE, but no doubt with some, **ehem**, pushing.

Meanwhile RPA are useless with names, 5 hospitals on the Red Line and they call one of the stops "Hospital".

Thread title edited.

dr zoidberg · 13-05-2006 11:00pm

There were a few letters in the Irish Times about this "San Seamus" thing. As far as I remember an expert wrote in stating that the use of San rather than Naomh was much older and not exactly wrong, although outdated. In fairness the RPA have a good record for translations. CIE have some really stupid ones like the pig-Irish "Confaí" at Confey station - Confey is "Cheann Fuath", basically they irish-ised an anglicised version of an Irish name!

Oh yeah, the big St. James's Hospital sign at the hospital entrance is incorrect as well, they should know you don't add an extra "s".

Anyway this is getting off-topic. There was an article in the Indo yesterday which suggested at the end that certain lines may be upgraded to DART in advance of the Interconnector completion - I assume the Balbriggan extension would be one of these, but is it possible that Maynooth or Hazelhatch could be done as well? Spencer Dock will accomodate more Maynooth passengers in the short term, while Hazelhatch is being quad-tracked. Anyone got any info on this?

Slice · 14-05-2006 2:56pm

To sell a vast site from public ownership in return for 1 subteranean station (highly inflexible-no diesel services can use it). It's absolutely pathetic.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think IE have previously stated that diesel trains would be able to use the interconnector, something to do with advances in railcar designs having made this possible. I think the interconnected was always going to facilitate Intercity trains from Cork and the West in addition to Dart/Suburban services and these lines aren't electrified.

murphaph · 14-05-2006 3:47pm

Slice wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think IE have previously stated that diesel trains would be able to use the interconnector, something to do with advances in railcar designs having made this possible. I think the interconnected was always going to facilitate Intercity trains from Cork and the West in addition to Dart/Suburban services and these lines aren't electrified.

There's no way you'll see any of IE's diesel fleet operate in a tunnel with stations. The only remotely possible vehicle is the 29000 class and even that is probably completely out of the question. No intercity services will use the interconnector.

MarkoP11 · 14-05-2006 4:15pm

Some recently suburban railcars where ordered with a class 1b fire rating to allow for underground operation if the station at Spencer Dock was built underground as it had been proposed some time ago. Irrespective of the fire rating diesel powered trains would not be suitable for prolonged underground operations where there are stations in the tunnel

No diesel powered train will operate through the interconnector tunnel nor will any intercity services. In fact based on the track layout Irish Rail have made public they will operate as seperate services on there own dedicated tracks and it won't infact be physically possible. Horrible idea anyway as the entire plan is to operate trains carrying 1400+ every 5 minutes, 400 seater intercity trains dont fit

To answer an earlier question Hazelhatch City will be last to be electrified since it appears there are no plans to electrify Heuston at any stage as its not needed. Its either Maynooth or Balbriggan to go electric first, my money is on Maynooth as it has a higher level of demand over a shorter distance

NavanJunction1 · 14-05-2006 8:28pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its either Maynooth or Balbriggan to go electric first, my money is on Maynooth as it has a higher level of demand over a shorter distance

I agree because I reckon residents which will be backing onto the line along the Clonee/Dunboyne stretch have been told that the line will be electric to keep the noise down (Meath Echo 2 issues ago).

What those residents may not be aware of is that Navan isn't going to be electrified and neither will Tara Mines trains...

Either way Maynooth would have to be elcrified for the Dunboyne electrification to take place by/in 2009.

SeanW · 14-05-2006 9:04pm

Question is: with Navan now confirmed to not be getting DART, and Spencer Dock really temporary, where are all those Navan trains going to go?

NavanJunction1 · 14-05-2006 9:14pm

SeanW wrote:

Question is: with Navan now confirmed to not be getting DART, and Spencer Dock really temporary, where are all those Navan trains going to go?

Sligo..;)

That's a good question.

MarkoP11 · 14-05-2006 9:32pm

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Sligo..;)

That's a good question.

Pearse, Grand Canal Dock or Connolly even Dun Laoghaire could be an option or you could run Navan Arklow and terminate Longfords in the city

Victor · 15-05-2006 12:08pm

I took a final look at the planning file today.

They had the model on display on a wall. There was a body in the water.

It's official "Docklands" station is only temporary

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