Is it just me, or does 'level scaling' make Oblivion pointless?

Karl Hungus · 04-04-2006 5:41pm #1

Ok, so as far as I know, it's a fairly new concept in RPGs where enemies are scaled to suit whatever level you're at. I've seen it before in the fairly tedious hack'n'slash game Sacred. Perhaps it's an experiment to see how this particular aspect of gaming mechanics works? One I genuinely hope will be over soon.

Let me explain. Lets take Gothic 2 for example, a particular favourite of mine among RPGs. The main character will start off a total weakling, and as you make your way to town, you struggle to fend off wolves, goblins and other little critters. With a little play time, of course, you get stronger and when you go on another venture into the wilderness, maybe you'll go hunting for a pack of wolves and cut them down with ease now that you've leveled up a few times?

Half the fun of an RPG to me is leveling up, coming across a beastie that you previously avoided with dread, and taking him on. A feeling that with a lot of hard work, doing side quests and gaining experience that you've finally got what it takes to kill said beastie. Or the feeling that you've just stumbled into something that is way out of your league. Where's the fun if it takes the same effort to kill a wolf as it does a shadowbeast, reguardless what level you are?

Now lets take a look at Oblivion. I've cut my way through the Arena to the rank of Grand Champion, and as one might think, fairly big achievement, right? Well, as it turns out, I come across a Goblin on a quest, the very same kind of enemy I remember thrashing in the introductionary section where my character is just starting off as a weakling. What happens? My big heroic basher doesn't exactly cut through him with ease as he should, it takes a bit of doing to kill this Goblin... Remarkably the same amount of effort it took to kill the same beastie when I first started off. Yawn.

Great, so you're level 30? Well my level 1 peon can chop through the game as easily as you can, so there! Where in god's name is the sense of acheivement in that? What's the point in putting hard work into leveling up, if you're going to walk down a road at level 40, and be set on by a wolf that just happens to be 40 times as ferocious as a wolf you killed when you were level 1?

It feels as though the gameplay is stuck in limbo! I'd like to be able to be in a situation where I'll get seven shades of **** kicked out of me in a matter of seconds, or be in a situation where I can slice through the ranks of beasts with ease. Some variety in the name of all that is holy! Please! As it is, it's pure tedium... Every encounter, reguardless of your level, is tailored so it'll be just the exact same amount of a challenge, no more, and no less.

In all effectiveness, level scaling means:

No matter what level you are, every encounter is the same.
No matter how many different beasts are in the game, every encounter is the same.
No matter what equipment you've got, every encounter is the same.
No matter what variables there are, it all adds up to total and all-encompassing tedium.
1 + 1 = 2
2 + 5 = 2
47 x 1204 = 2

I much prefered the way things were done in Gothic 2. As you advanced along the storyline, more powerfull enemies appeared aswell as weak little critters. Yes, that's right! Gothic 2 had something called variation! You'll come along and practically step on a wolf without noticing, and then an Orc will come along and slice you right down the middle! Then eventually when the Orc invasion happens, you'll be strong enough to start taking on groups of Orcs, and other beasts that you've tried to avoid before. You're not going to be able to come along and beat up an Orc at level 1, or slay a Dragon.

I'm really thinking of just giving up on Oblivion altogether, re-installing Gothic 2, and playing both that, and Morrowind again, because both games were far more rewarding and varied experiences. I'm just getting utterly bored of the fact that every single quest in Oblivion is the same tedious affair over and over and over ad nauseum.

It's sad, because Oblivion could've been such an astounding game. It's got such a huge game area, it's just a pity that it's filled with the exact same thing, over and over. I seriously hope a mod comes out for it that'll give every enemy a set level, because untill then, it's just a rehash of the same thing on a huge scale.

jesus_thats_gre · 04-04-2006 5:43pm

Agreed.. I am not a big RPG fan but I really wanted to give Oblivion a go but it's really pissing me off..

Kiith · 04-04-2006 5:50pm

dont have time to read all that, but theres a mod to stop the crap enemies (i.e wolves, goblins etc...) to stop scaling (or at least stop them at a certain point). if i get a chance later, i'll try find it, or you could all look on the official forums. now back to my project

steviec · 04-04-2006 6:03pm

Final Fantasy VIII did the same thing if I remember correctly, I'm still undecided if its good or bad.

Its true that I don't really feel like I'm gettting more powerful as the game goes on in Oblivion, but all that means is that the fights remain challenging while I'm getting new interesting spells and abilities to use. The focus is different. There are many great FPS/action/adventure games that the same type of enemy would be just as big a threat in the final level as the first. Doesn't stop them being fun.

Even logically speaking, why should your character be able to stomp on a goblin today that was a hard fight a week ago? Just because he's killed a dozen equally hard goblins in the meantime? The only difference should be in terms of learning tactics, which is something for the player to do.

I'm not sure, I do have mixed feelings about the system but at the end of the day it's the most engrossing game I've played in a long time and I don't think the levelling system has detracted from it. It just means I don't have to put up with the aggravation of getting cut to pieces in five seconds because I walked into the wrong area, and it means dungeons in early areas remain fun and not a simple formality if you go back to them.

Kiith · 04-04-2006 6:16pm

steviec wrote:

Even logically speaking, why should your character be able to stomp on a goblin today that was a hard fight a week ago? Just because he's killed a dozen equally hard goblins in the meantime? The only difference should be in terms of learning tactics, which is something for the player to do.

well, you should be able to stomp all over goblins/wolves/rats etc... since your skills, stats, and equipment is increasing, where as they are still the same goblins/wolves/rats that were there before. i dont mind scaling on some enemies, like dremora/deaderic etc, but at lvl50 i want to be able to kill pretty much all random enemies in 1 hit. otherwise, whats the point of levelling up.

ps. i still love the game.

Zillah · 04-04-2006 6:36pm

Just get the encounter randomiser. Pff, no big deal. There's a link for it around here somewhere. Maybe the RPG forum.

Kiith · 04-04-2006 6:36pm

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=337495

try this. sounds like a good scaling mod. i'm gonna try it in a while, and i'll let you know.

super_furry · 04-04-2006 6:44pm

Really? That's put me right off Oblivion now. The thing I loved about Morrowind was the fact that, yes, you could go anywhere but if you went somewhere where the enemies were obviously stronger, you got destroyed. There was no need for artificial barriers, which I suspect Oblivion probably has.

Having enemies reacting differently the stronger you get if the best way to deal with it. Enemies that once would attack you on their own only attack in groups as you progress and eventually run from you.

Karl Hungus · 04-04-2006 6:48pm

Ok, so maybe my ranting was a little too soon. Caps for scaling sound perfect! I'll be trying this mod sharply.

tba · 04-04-2006 7:00pm

In some aspects you are right, eg whats the point in having levels if they have no effect on your character?

grimloch · 04-04-2006 7:00pm

steviec wrote:

Final Fantasy VIII did the same thing if I remember correctly, I'm still undecided if its good or bad.

VIII did it and it was crap. It wasn't as balanced as Oblivion sounds. In fact, it your levels get higher, it actually becomes easier to get your ass handed to you by random enemies.

Anyway, this little enemy scaling malarky had put me buying off the game but now that a mod is on hand to remedy the situation I think I'll give it a bash.

Pop Quiz: Anyone still in school. How much does this pwn your study time?

super_furry · 04-04-2006 7:02pm

Mods are all well and good for those with a PC, but you can't get on for the 360 can you?

Ri_Nollaig · 04-04-2006 7:19pm

360 can have mods but so far you need to pay for them! ha!
the level scaling is annoying, i think it was a stupid idea too, i still love this game but am fairly pissed off about it

i can see why they put it in but when you see a bandit with ebony armour! or a wolf that is more challenging then the grand champion of the arena! thats abit of a joke
also loot is level scaled so you never really get good stuff till you are good enough! thats why u might pick a "very-hard" chest to only find a carrot and a gold coin...

Kiith · 04-04-2006 7:20pm

grimloch wrote:

Pop Quiz: Anyone still in school. How much time does this pwn your study time?

consider yourself ****ed

GrumPy · 04-04-2006 7:56pm

Kiith wrote:

consider yourself ****ed

pwns it hard, but i only get to play it for a while when i get home, cause i dont finish till 6 anyway, studying.

TheDoc · 04-04-2006 8:12pm

tbh oblivion sounded gr8, but after reading this post it sounds ****. You can have all the fancy armours, clothes graphics you want but at the end of the day an rpg is about levelling and emmersing yourself into another world. If every enoucnter is the same, if a creature that was hard at lvl 1 is hard at lvl 40, there is no progressiong, the whole point is you progress and become stronger and more feared by inferior beings.

will see how this pans out before buying.

Jumpy · 04-04-2006 8:29pm

Hehe yah, I am Grand Champion of the Arena and Im level 4.
I am gonna try that mod.

KdjaCL · 04-04-2006 8:48pm

Theres no reward for earning "teh big pointy stick that shoots death", it still feels like the cpu gets one too.

kdjac

Retr0gamer · 04-04-2006 8:52pm

I hate levelling up and feel it is an artifical means of adding length to a game. I know that in a lot of RPGs it really annoys me when I can't get through a dungeon due to a low level and have to bore myself silly wandering around beating up the same enemies again and again. i lost interest in Grandia Xtreme for this reason since a session of levelling up had to be done before each dungeon.

So level scaling all the way!

Sand · 04-04-2006 9:12pm

Mods are all well and good for those with a PC, but you can't get on for the 360 can you?

PC uber alles tbh.

I can see Bethesda introducing a patch/mod themselves to make the scaling optional or to limit its effects, so X Box will probably get something similar it eventually. I can see why they put in scaling - In Morrowind you could have a couple of hundred thousand gp inside an hours play and within 2-3 hours after become as a living god, striding across the world shattering mountains. I remember running a round trip of pre-selected Master Trainers strewn across Morrowind in a matter of minutes, levelling with max atttribute gain every 4-5 minutes and never in danger of running out of money. I was also working on forging my own suit of armour that would make me invulnerable to all melee damage with constant effect.

You can be sure it was whinging about this "unbalanced" gameplay that motivated the scaling, but it appears they may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The simplest fix was introduced - limit trainers to 5 points a level. Even if you have a billion GP you can only accent some attributes, but you cant replace actually going out and adventuring which is what they want to encourage. Give the elite gear to elite monsters, and if you get it - fair play.

That said, the two KOTOR games scaled as well and were very enjoyable despite or even because of it - KOTOR more than KOTOR2, by the end of KOTOR2 your character was again in the "living engine of carnage" compared even to the end of game bosses, who were complete walkovers (couldnt even hurt me tbh) compared to KOTOR 1.

VIII did it and it was crap. It wasn't as balanced as Oblivion sounds. In fact, it your levels get higher, it actually becomes easier to get your ass handed to you by random enemies.

Same can happen in Oblivion - putting Athletics, Acrobatics or Sneaking as a major skill is a mistake (imo before flamage occurs) as it leads to your enemies levelling up in combat toughness whilst youre only a small bit faster/jumpier/sneakier. Youre running everywhere as it is so youre Athletics will ramp up quickly, without it forcing you to tackle killer rabbits from hell.

also loot is level scaled so you never really get good stuff till you are good enough! thats why u might pick a "very-hard" chest to only find a carrot and a gold coin...

How much is it linked to level? From Morrowind the major effect on loot was Luck, so Ive always seen it as the most vital attribute to start as high as possible in. Ive done the same with Oblivion so I dont want to be snookered, certainly loot seems decent so far without being awe inspiring.

Zillah · 04-04-2006 9:32pm

/Kind of off-topic. Sorry for my dismissive tone earlier, that really was a well written point Karl.

Karl Hungus · 04-04-2006 9:33pm

Well, I've been playing away with that mod. Didn't even have to start a new character to take advantage of it either, and what can I say? So far I've come across some trolls that absolutely beat the living **** out of me! Oh, the fun of variation.

Sand wrote:

You can be sure it was whinging about this "unbalanced" gameplay that motivated the scaling, but it appears they may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The simplest fix was introduced - limit trainers to 5 points a level. Even if you have a billion GP you can only accent some attributes, but you cant replace actually going out and adventuring which is what they want to encourage. Give the elite gear to elite monsters, and if you get it - fair play.

Indeed, the limit on trainers is definetly an improvement. Things could get terribly boring in Morrowind if you just level yourself up like that.

Zillah wrote:

/Kind of off-topic. Sorry for my dismissive tone earlier, that really was a well written point Karl.

Not a bother at all. Thanks.

tba · 04-04-2006 10:11pm

Sweet so you recommend it, whats the name, got a lnk?

Matt Simis · 04-04-2006 10:34pm

I dont think you quite understand how the level system works. I have totally the opposite complaint.
Very few mobs level with you to begin with and those that do are on a ratio basis. A Quest that involves a mob thats 5 levels (or X%) lower than your maintains that ratio as does one thats higher. If it didnt do this, then you would find that after about 20hrs nothing in the game could touch you (like in Morrowind, I killed the end God in Morrowind in 4 hits, not joking). However, they dont gain any major new abilities nor does the level difference have as big an impact as it does in say WOW (an MMO I know, but the level system was strict and severe in that game).

Im level 35ish in Oblivion, Master of multiple Skills, 100% Magic Resistance, 85 Armour and find virtually all mobs weak and sometimes tiresome. The more interesting fights are because of the level system, without it the game would bore quickly and quests would be utterly pointless from a Story perspective. As I stated above only some mobs actually level with you:

Xivalli (sp)
Lich
Goblin Warlords
Goblin Shaman
Demora/Daedra lords
Quest Specific named NPCs
Minotaurs Lords (not standard or other variants)

Things that dont level at all:
Rats, Bears, Lions, Most Ghosts, Zomibies under Dread Zombie, Guards (seemingly), most Vampires etc etc.

More things dont level than do, I would prefer if a ratio system was in place for nearly all mobs, the idea of capping the level system frankly leads me to believe you grossly mis-spec'ed your character for your play style. The game gets easier the longer you play, the mobs dont get decked out in magic armour, weapons and Master Skills as you do.

Matt

mcgovern · 05-04-2006 12:01am

Yeah, I only started playing this (only level 4) but already I've noticed that I can kill the likes of rats in one hit which I couldn't do at the start.
So I agree with Matt

Illkillya · 05-04-2006 12:22am

I agree that the levelling system is not good. For example, I trained my blade against mobs, and I trained my spells in an inn (sad, yes I know), but then I realised... why? There is no point in advancing levels quickly in this game, because it will give you enemies that suit your level. Might as well just waltz through a gnome-infested Oblivion Gate now, instead of waiting for it to fill up with daedra.

Matt Simis · 05-04-2006 12:42am

Illkillya wrote:

I agree that the levelling system is not good. For example, I trained my blade against mobs, and I trained my spells in an inn (sad, yes I know), but then I realised... why? There is no point in advancing levels quickly in this game, because it will give you enemies that suit your level. Might as well just waltz through a gnome-infested Oblivion Gate now, instead of waiting for it to fill up with daedra.

Except for the fact the developers arent idiots. Certain mobs always inhabit certain key areas and mobs that dont level with you have preset levels, eg Skeletons are lvl15 or so always,

You are correct tho, advancing levels doesnt help in itself directly, it really is there to allow you to Master more skill sets. The key to the game is paying for max training in something every single level. Once you rest and complete the level up, the 5pt training you could of had is gone for good.

Matt

steviec · 05-04-2006 1:12am

Everyone try getting out of the 'this is how an RPG should be because its how other ones are' mindset.

Think about other games. Think about general logic. Why should your character become more powerful than his enemies as time goes on? In Metal Gear Solid was Snake able to just charge at regular guards while the bullets bounced off him towards the end of the game because he had more 'experience' now? In Shadow of the Colossus can you go back and slay the first Colossus with one sword stroke? In Mario can you just run into Goombas on later levels because your so strong?

Someone said the game actually gets harder when you level up. Shock horror! A later level being more difficult than an early one! Who'd have thought. It's as if the game employed some kind of learning curve!

What levelling up does do is give you new abilities to play with and make fights more interesting, without making them easy. The usual way of doing it does have its merits too(I'm still not sure which I'd prefer) but I really really don't think this system is a horrible game destroying one. And I'm all for it being up to the player themselves to play better to defeat an enemy, rather than just levelling up their avatar to do so.

Karl Hungus · 05-04-2006 4:31am

steviec wrote:

Everyone try getting out of the 'this is how an RPG should be because its how other ones are' mindset.

Actually, I'm not in that mindset at all. My mindset is 'this is how an RPG should be because it's actually an enjoyable and rewarding experience rather than tedious.'

steviec wrote:

Think about other games. Think about general logic. Why should your character become more powerful than his enemies as time goes on? In Metal Gear Solid was Snake able to just charge at regular guards while the bullets bounced off him towards the end of the game because he had more 'experience' now? In Shadow of the Colossus can you go back and slay the first Colossus with one sword stroke? In Mario can you just run into Goombas on later levels because your so strong?

Well first of all, your comparisons are ridiculous. Those are totally different kinds of games altogether, and for someone who's getting self-righteous about '...because this is what other games are like' you should just take a look at what you said. Pot, kettle, racial abuse.

Nobody is talking about bullets bouncing off your character, but very basic logic would tell you that with the precepts of the human body, a person will get stronger with training in a physical attribute. Do you expect that a weightlifter could train and train, and not be able to lift anything heavier than when he first started?

In Oblivion, the main character is wasting away in a dungeon, and you'd expect that after they're free, get to stretch their legs again, move around, and indeed, with some hard work, become highly skilled in some physical sense, that they wouldn't be any stronger? That's beyond spurious!

And you've mentioned Solid Snake, well he's an elite soldier, isn't it? He'd be kept in top shape all the time.

Zillah · 05-04-2006 6:08am

Ok:

Matt Simis wrote:

I dont think you quite understand how the level system works. I have totally the opposite complaint.
Very few mobs level with you to begin with and those that do are on a ratio basis. A Quest that involves a mob thats 5 levels (or X%) lower than your maintains that ratio as does one thats higher. If it didnt do this, then you would find that after about 20hrs nothing in the game could touch you (like in Morrowind, I killed the end God in Morrowind in 4 hits, not joking). However, they dont gain any major new abilities nor does the level difference have as big an impact as it does in say WOW (an MMO I know, but the level system was strict and severe in that game).

Im level 35ish in Oblivion, Master of multiple Skills, 100% Magic Resistance, 85 Armour and find virtually all mobs weak and sometimes tiresome. The more interesting fights are because of the level system, without it the game would bore quickly and quests would be utterly pointless from a Story perspective. As I stated above only some mobs actually level with you:

Xivalli (sp)
Lich
Goblin Warlords
Goblin Shaman
Demora/Daedra lords
Quest Specific named NPCs
Minotaurs Lords (not standard or other variants)

Things that dont level at all:
Rats, Bears, Lions, Most Ghosts, Zomibies under Dread Zombie, Guards (seemingly), most Vampires etc etc.

More things dont level than do, I would prefer if a ratio system was in place for nearly all mobs, the idea of capping the level system frankly leads me to believe you grossly mis-spec'ed your character for your play style. The game gets easier the longer you play, the mobs dont get decked out in magic armour, weapons and Master Skills as you do.

You seem to be entirely missing the fact that although many creatures don't change their individual level, the occurance of creatures changes. For example, it would appear that I managed to depopulate Oblivion of Flame Atronochs, how odd. Because, in my first few jaunts there Flame Atronachs were extremely common, but now, at level20 or so, they're completely extinct! Theres nothing but Storm Atronachs and similar Daedra around. Hunting to extinction for their rare Fire Salts... Same thing with Rats et al. Sure, rats don't level, but they stop spawning and you don't get a rat, you get a wolf, and then bears, and then lions. Strange that last week the world was full of random rat and imp attacks, but once again I've hunted them to extinction... Shame that.

Think about other games. Think about general logic. Why should your character become more powerful than his enemies as time goes on? In Metal Gear Solid was Snake able to just charge at regular guards while the bullets bounced off him towards the end of the game because he had more 'experience' now? In Shadow of the Colossus can you go back and slay the first Colossus with one sword stroke? In Mario can you just run into Goombas on later levels because your so strong?

The very basis of an RPG is that you start with a character, and play their role, and watch them develop in life and career. They learn new skills, or powerz, or tricks or techniques etc. The very purpose of such games to watch them grow into the mighty beings they are destined to become, to watch them become heros of legend.

It fills a dramatic niche, the story of the young hero who grows to be a wiser but mighty version of himself. If you really want to get into it, its a reenactment of 90% of old legends and stories, everything, anime, actions movies, books, loads of things.

If metal gear solid were an RPG, it'd probably make a damn good one. But it isn't, and if it was, he'd sneak better, and shoot better, and break necks better, why the hell would he become bullet proof? Don't make the mistake of assuming when we say "the character gets better", as "the character becomes 300% better in every way possible."

Rope wrote:

Gothic 2 so far has the best system I've witnessed in an RPG

Everyone has been saying some variety of this. I must try it.

For the record, im fully in favour of an RPG that scales things, but one that scales them a bit more intelligently that Oblivion has done. I want a more intuitive and believeable scaling system. I don't want for the weaker creatures to suspiciously become extinct once you get more powerful, I don't want every Goblin to gain exactly the same proportion of health levels as I have, and I don't want areas to randomly fill with dozens of mooks that are an indentical threat level as every other mook ever to come into existence at any stage of the game.

Oh, and I want the Arena to fuck right the hell off. That was the most absurdly stupid scalling I have ever seen. (I had 114 speed and light armor, and yet I was easily caught up by EVERY character, many of whom were wearing heavy armor. WTF? If they're the fastest beings in the universe, wtf are they wasting time here for?*And now the hero from the blue team faces...THE FLASH..AND HIS FAMILY OF CYBORG NINJAS!* Idiots.)

koneko · 05-04-2006 9:20am

RopeDrink wrote:

Levelling a character through struggles with wolves and start game beasties and then having the exact same hassle with them 20-40 levels later is rather fruitless, boring and really steals from the idea of 'character developement' (the whole idea of an RPG) when no amount of upgrading or levelling actually makes you any better then the way you were when you started playing it...

But you don't. Those start creatures and beasties are still the same as they were before. Only some things level. Other than that, instead of the easy creatures, you'll come across harder ones. And there is definite feeling of "levelling" or improving, you'll learning new things as you go along, I have some mega items right now and great powers and conjures, and there are more on the way.

Personally, I think it's a refreshing change, and I'm enjoying the way it works in the game. I don't think it has to stick to specific pre-set RPG rules other games followed. I wish people would stop going on about "how an RPG should be". It's different, that isn't a bad thing! You can always play the other RPGs if you want, this isn't a change for all games, this is how this game is. If you don't like it, try the mods. It's nice to play a game where the level system is different, and you're not forced into certain areas at certain levels, you can do whatever you want.

Is it just me, or does 'level scaling' make Oblivion pointless?

Comments