The Proposed Garda Reserve Force

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 12:41pm #1

Hullaballoo,

Would this be the correct forun to start this thread? would it go elsewhere or to your knowledge is there one in on the go already? I'll start it but if it needs to go elsewhere let me know.

What is the problem with starting a Garda Reserve Force?

It works very well in the U.K. and takes a lot of pressure off the full time officers to go about their daily work. They are seen as a valuable asset to policing in the U.K. I personally do not see a problem, however media reports otherwise and the Garda Síochána appear to be against the proposal.

What are your views as solicitors, lawers or members of the public etc from a legal or any point?

TJ911...

Turner · 26-03-2006 1:01pm

Im sure the lawyers would be delighted if 4000 reserve lawyers were introduced to work after only 40 hours training.

Give the gardai the resources (money/cars/buildings/equipment) and extra fully trained members they need, then think about a reserve force.

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 1:54pm

Im sure the lawyers would be delighted if 4000 reserve lawyers were introduced to work after only 40 hours training.

They would have to be correctly trained I agree, no point in sending someone out with such a limited knowledge.

Give the gardai the resources (money/cars/buildings/equipment) and extra fully trained members they need, then think about a reserve force.

It appears, from listening to media and reading newspapers, the Force is in need of a lot of new equipment and members. The Minister for Justice should address these issues first and bring An Garda Síochána up to date. Safety is paramount i.e. radios, vehicles, technology to combat crime etc.

TJ911...

hullaballoo · 26-03-2006 2:45pm

This forum is about the most appropriate, thanks for asking.

I think there are a number of fairly important constitutional issues that arise with regard to the reserve force. I don't have my copy of Bunracht na hÉireann here with me now, but I'm fairly sure the police force of the state are constitutionally empowered, and given the name "Garda Síochána".

besty · 26-03-2006 5:25pm

I would take issue with the fact that a Garda reservist will have to deal with situations that a fully qualified Garda with far more training will be faced with. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not totally against the idea of the reservists, but surely this undermines the full time Gardaí?

I think that the proposed reservists could possibly take on administrative posts freeing up the "professional" Gardaí to go back on the streets.

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 6:47pm

Besty,

To make it work, all volunteers would have to undergo a longer training package than the one proposed, I believe it's four weeks (open to correction). I feel they should have the same training as a full time probationer should and be given the excact same powers. Those who do not make the grade should be treated in the same manner as a full time colleague and shown the door if not up to standard.

They could deal with minor crime, such as theft, assault, direct traffic, stand on crime scenes and only be involved in low level, non confrontational public order events etc. Basically relieve their full time colleagues to go about their daily business.

How does it undermine the full time Garda? They would be there to assist the full time Garda. The full time Garda would always have the upper hand or final word.

My view re the admin posts would be to rid all the control rooms over time and the front desk of full time Gardaí and civilianise these areas, this would free up a lot of full time Garda and put them back out onto the streets. This would not happen over night it would at least take a few years to fully implement.

TJ911...

Eru · 26-03-2006 7:11pm

OK before I start allow me to explain something. Your name Trojan911 implies this:

Trojan is the name for armed units in the London MET and a popular screen name for wannabees. 911 is the emergency services in America, again a popular username. Perhaps this is coincidence on your part.

Trojan911 wrote:

What is the problem with starting a Garda Reserve Force?

Its pretty much been said already by other users but allow me to elaberate.
1. I recieve in total 2 years training, why then can the minister declare a person competent after less than 1 week? Is it possible to recieve adequate training in this time?

2. They will work a minimum of 4 hours per week. Is this effective or of any real value?

3. If they arrest a person for a serious offence what will happen if they go 'baton crazy'? what will happen to their cases if they decide to quit? what will happen if they simple dont bother going to court or in fact, work? They cannot be fined or punished.

4. Who will pay them for attending court to prosecute cases? wil their current employers? If so will they be happy with their employee being a reserve and missing work?

5. Who pays out if they are injured or kiilled on-duty? private inurance or Garda? What pension would they then get? If they get Garda pension through injury or Garda life assurance ill they be required to pay into these schemes? why should I pay for their cover?

6. They must be with a fulltime Garda at all times. Am I now a supervisor? will I be paid extra for this responsibility? Will they in fact be a nuisance to me and take up more time than they give? If a reserve oversteps on my prisoner do I get the complaint? Is my case now lost and if so am I too be punished?

7. Will they be screened properly and sign contracts? Whats to stop a journalist signing up then quitting and writing about the internal working of the Gardai including private proceedures, intelligence and cases? Whats to stop a reserve selling information?

Trojan911 wrote:

It works very well in the U.K. and takes a lot of pressure off the full time officers to go about their daily work. They are seen as a valuable asset to policing in the U.K.

With respect I am a member of various international police agencies and the reality is very different. many fulltime officers in the UK and the US will not co-operate with reserves. They are treated as scabs and in fact I have heard they get in the way more. Dont believe government statements. Also remember that in the US and UK many paperwork and station duties are performed by civilian staff that are neither fulltime or part-time officers.

Trojan911 wrote:

however media reports otherwise and the Garda Síochána appear to be against the proposal.

What are your views as solicitors, lawers or members of the public etc from a legal or any point?

I have given the Garda side to this but allow me to put 3 things to you.

A, If I went to your place of business and did your job for free would you welcome me or hate me? would the union accept this? What about in the US where agencies have fired fulltime officers and replaced them with reserves? This will be immediately visible for the likes of Paddies day and concerts. can you honestly see a reserve standing his ground and obeying orders in the next Orange march?

B, would you like to see doormen, bouncers and security guards given badges and immediate powers? Would you like the fact that many reserves will have failed to recruitment process many time, isn't there a valid reason for this? Would you feel confident if some of your neighbours signed up and could now look up your home, car and family?

C, If you signed up would you really like to police your own neighbourhood where the people you arrest know where you live, where you work and where your children go to school? How about the local thugs and provos having this information? Please dont be fooled, they aqcuire this information about fulltime officers as it is and we take precautions.

Trojan911 wrote:

time and the front desk of full time Gardaí and civilianise these areas, this would free up a lot of full time Garda and put them back out onto the streets. This would not happen over night it would at least take a few years to fully implement.

I know one case in the UK (which involved a friend of mine) and the civilian staff went to the local pub and started dropping enough hints and questions for everyone to know what had happened in the case. My friend (female) lived on the same road as this guy and so they had the same local. She withdrew her complaint as a result of the rumours and venum sent her way. All because of failed wannabee abused his limited position.

And trust me, I would love to get rid of some of my paperwork.

mountainyman · 26-03-2006 8:28pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

1. I recieve in total 2 years training, why then can the minister declare a person competent after less than 1 week? Is it possible to recieve adequate training in this time?

2. They will work a minimum of 4 hours per week. Is this effective or of any real value?

I don't believe that they will be as effective as a 'real guard' but simple numbers could be useful as for the four hours a week no one would volunteer for more. At four hours a week it will take a long time to build up experience and to become a competent policeman.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

3. If they arrest a person for a serious offence what will happen if they go 'baton crazy'? what will happen to their cases if they decide to quit? what will happen if they simple dont bother going to court or in fact, work? They cannot be fined or punished.

I presume the police would simply close ranks and ensure that any prosecution would fail. They can certainly be punished are you seriously saying that if I was beaten to death by 4 reserves they couldn't be charged with violent disorder?
I will deal with the court issue later.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

4. Who will pay them for attending court to prosecute cases? wil their current employers? If so will they be happy with their employee being a reserve and missing work.

A statutory duty coud be imposed on employers to pay reserves for attending court (indeed such a duty could and should be created. If these people cannot always testify in court they will be worse than useless. Evidence is not evidence until it is read into the record and the defense are given the opportunity to cross examine.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

5. Who pays out if they are injured or kiilled on-duty? private inurance or Garda? What pension would they then get? If they get Garda pension through injury or Garda life assurance will they be required to pay into these schemes? why should I pay for their cover?

This is a weak argument. What proportion of the pension and life assurance is commercial as opposed to being provided by the state. Furthermore the payout would be based on the volunteers own income. Would people join solely to get injured and get a fat payout?

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

6. They must be with a fulltime Garda at all times. Am I now a supervisor? will I be paid extra for this responsibility? Will they in fact be a nuisance to me and take up more time than they give? If a reserve oversteps on my prisoner do I get the complaint? Is my case now lost and if so am I too be punished?

Almost certainly they will be a burden and a complete drain on the energy of the fulltime police. I am sure that you will be able to stop them beating people up but what about mishandling evidence? How many people are going to walk because
1 the crucial evidence is mishandled by a reserve
2 the reserve doesn't turn up in court

As regards reserves not turning up barristers will wait for that to happen and allege violence from the reserve (who won't be there to defend himself).

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

7. Will they be screened properly and sign contracts? Whats to stop a journalist signing up then quitting and writing about the internal working of the Gardai including private proceedures, intelligence and cases? Whats to stop a reserve selling information?

What is to stop someone on the fringes of the drugs gangs joining up just on the off chance that they might hear something and/or **** up an investigation. Volunteer with the guards do 4 hours a week and get 50K a year off some cocaine baron.

It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

With respect I am a member of various international police agencies and the reality is very different. many fulltime officers in the UK and the US will not co-operate with reserves. They are treated as scabs and in fact I have heard they get in the way more. Dont believe government statements. Also remember that in the US and UK many paperwork and station duties are performed by civilian staff that are neither fulltime or part-time officers.

... If I went to your place of business and did your job for free would you welcome me or hate me? would the union accept this? What about in the US where agencies have fired fulltime officers and replaced them with reserves? This will be immediately visible for the likes of Paddies day and concerts. can you honestly see a reserve standing his ground and obeying orders in the next Orange march?...

I understand the concerns of Gardai but the reserves won't be capable of doing your job for free. Also we accept volunteers in hospitals; why not law enforcement. It is for the Oireachtas to determine policy in these matters not serving members of the Gardai. I don't think it is unconstitutional either.

Perhaps it will be useful if it should disseminate more widely knowledge about the inner workings of the Irish police. I am not suggesting that this lack of knowledge is sinister but certainly I think it would be good if the workings of the police were more widely known.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

B, would you like to see doormen, bouncers and security guards given badges and immediate powers? Would you like the fact that many reserves will have failed to recruitment process many time, isn't there a valid reason for this? Would you feel confident if some of your neighbours signed up and could now look up your home, car and family? ...

No but perhaps greater community involvement in law enforcement is worth this inconvenience, isn't greater involvement from the people at large good in itself and even if someone has failed to get into Templemore and is not good enough to be a real policemen they could be a hobby bobby sure what harm?

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

C, If you signed up would you really like to police your own neighbourhood where the people you arrest know where you live, where you work and where your children go to school? How about the local thugs and provos having this information? Please dont be fooled, they aqcuire this information about fulltime officers as it is and we take precautions.

I know one case in the UK (which involved a friend of mine) and the civilian staff went to the local pub and started dropping enough hints and questions for everyone to know what had happened in the case. My friend (female) lived on the same road as this guy and so they had the same local. She withdrew her complaint as a result of the rumours and venum sent her way. All because of failed wannabee abused his limited position.

And trust me, I would love to get rid of some of my paperwork.

That is pretty much guaranteed, if you join the reserve and get a sniff of a big case you will want people to know. I would anyway, again this is pretty much guaranteed and crime journalists will have a field day with these people. Though our real police are pretty **** when it comes to leaking information. And policewomen are crap aren't they? most ban gardai (don't say that!!) are unfit.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Trojan is the name for armed units in the London MET and a popular screen name for wannabees. 911 is the emergency services in America, again a popular username.

I thought it was a mickey joke.

The only good reason to have volunteer policemen is to impact on a culture of collegiality and a cop culture which is inward looking and regards the population at large as divided into scumbags and victims.

On balance however it is a disaster waiting to happen.

MM

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 8:37pm

OK before I start allow me to explain something.
Its pretty much been said already by other users but allow me to elaberate.
1. I recieve in total 2 years training, why then can the minister declare a person competent after less than 1 week? Is it possible to recieve adequate training in this time?

As stated in my last post, train the volunteer the same as a full timer.

2. They will work a minimum of 4 hours per week. Is this effective or of any real value?

At weekends / evenings they will make a difference, no doubt when fully trained up.

3. If they arrest a person for a serious offence what will happen if they go 'baton crazy'?

If they recieve the proper training there should not be a problem, it would be down to the mentor to assess their behaviour. The same as a full time probationer would be assessed.

4. Who will pay them for attending court to prosecute cases? wil their current employers? If so will they be happy with their employee being a reserve and missing work?

Who pays for the FCA to attend summer camp each year? Minister would probably answer that question.

5. Who pays out if they are injured or kiilled on-duty? private inurance or Garda? What pension would they then get? If they get Garda pension through injury or Garda life assurance ill they be required to pay into these schemes? why should I pay for their cover?

The Minister for Justice would probably answer that question

6. They must be with a fulltime Garda at all times. Am I now a supervisor? will I be paid extra for this responsibility? Will they in fact be a nuisance to me and take up more time than they give? If a reserve oversteps on my prisoner do I get the complaint? Is my case now lost and if so am I too be punished?

Can't answer if you'll be paid more, will they be a nuisance? you won't know until they land at your station.

If it's your prisoner then you are responsible for the welfare of that prisoner, if your reserve oversteps then invoke the disciplinary procedure.

7. Will they be screened properly and sign contracts? Whats to stop a journalist signing up then quitting and writing about the internal working of the Gardai including private proceedures, intelligence and cases? Whats to stop a reserve selling information?

Screened the same as a full time Garda. As for the journalist, have you something to hide? Has a full time Garda never sold information to the press have they never leaked info out?

With respect I am a member of various international police agencies and the reality is very different. many fulltime officers in the UK and the US will not co-operate with reserves. They are treated as scabs and in fact I have heard they get in the way more. Dont believe government statements. Also remember that in the US and UK many paperwork and station duties are performed by civilian staff that are neither fulltime or part-time officers.

Show me a link where I can read this information or a press release from a Police Service indicating their Reserves are a hinderance.

I have given the Garda side to this but allow me to put 3 things to you.

A, If I went to your place of business and did your job for free would you welcome me or hate me? would the union accept this? What about in the US where agencies have fired fulltime officers and replaced them with reserves? This will be immediately visible for the likes of Paddies day and concerts. can you honestly see a reserve standing his ground and obeying orders in the next Orange march?

You wouldn't be needed where I work, I have a full team and do not require my numbers to be boosted.

Can't answer for the U.S.

Low level, non confrontational, public order events as stated in my last post.

B, would you like to see doormen, bouncers and security guards given badges and immediate powers? Would you like the fact that many reserves will have failed to recruitment process many time, isn't there a valid reason for this? Would you feel confident if some of your neighbours signed up and could now look up your home, car and family?

They would be exempt, conflict of interest, as would publicans.

C, If you signed up would you really like to police your own neighbourhood where the people you arrest know where you live, where you work and where your children go to school? How about the local thugs and provos having this information? Please dont be fooled, they aqcuire this information about fulltime officers as it is and we take precautions.

I wouldn't sign up as my current job would probably be a conflict of interest. It was stated that no reserves would serve in their immediate community.

I know one case in the UK (which involved a friend of mine) and the civilian staff went to the local pub and started dropping enough hints and questions for everyone to know what had happened in the case. My friend (female) lived on the same road as this guy and so they had the same local. She withdrew her complaint as a result of the rumours and venum sent her way. All because of failed wannabee abused his limited position.

These things happen, unfortunate but they happen, can you say that a full time officer has not done this in the pub after a few to many jars.

The first thing for the Minister to do is put more regulars on the street, pump money into the Force to update the safety, vehicles & technology, then concentrate on a Reserve Force.. In the meantime replace indoor Garda posts with civilians over a period of time, thats a start to put more on the streets.

TJ911...

NUTLEY BOY · 26-03-2006 8:42pm

The idea of a reserve is a laughable political fudge.

There are simply NOT ENOUGH gardai to deal with current demands on them.

Given that many people do not bother to report a lot of crimes I am sure that the real situation is worse than official figures suggest.

If we started a national "Report a Crime Week" it might make more interesting reading than the official numbers. By the way I presume that "official" crime statistics are a major factor in determining establishment numbers for various garda divisions.

Inflicting a part time AND only partly qualified reserve on existing gardai will probaly make them even less productive.

Stop playing with numbers and the public and supply the police force that is required in the first place before talking about a reserve.

Eru · 26-03-2006 10:02pm

OK I cannot answer everyone in full so If I dont touch on one of your points take it that I agree with you, now as brief as possible:

MM,
In relation to point 3. Close ranks implies we protect guilty corrupt Gardai. I can tell you now we dont, the majority of accusations are bogus plain and simple. 47 Gardai have been sacked in the past decade for breaking law or regulations. All 47 were investigated and prosecuted by other Gardai. I know most wont believe this but honest garai dont like workign with corrupt officers and will report them however waht 1 person feels is unjustified I may feel is needed. (Imi thinking of use of force here). Secondly, I am speaking about internal discipline for breach of Garda code of conduct not illegal acts. I can be punished for not being in court by way of fine or being barred from courses and promotions, etc. This will not be possible against a reserve.

Point 5. Its not weak, I pay health and medical insurance as well as a pension. Will they have to pay these or will the increased claims be put on my subscription?? garda medical aid is used a lot by us as we get physically injured frequently. Im not even touching mental.

As for the decision. well personally I think those that must work with a system and have the knowledge and experience should be the decision makers. As for hospitals, you do not have reserve doctors or nurses. I have no problem with a civilian doing paperwork and desk/office duties. I also never stated it was unconstitutional.

In regards the rest, yes the Gardai and general population should work with eachother more but the reality is the public are unwilling to really support the Gardai and in my experience there are plenty that will either abuse any trust or faith on my part or are secretly hoping I fail or fall. How often have you heard a drunk give grief to a Garda for no reason? how often have criminals been cheered as they flee from a Garda? Im afraid working together must be a 2 way system.

I like your point on the workings being more known, I would not have a problem with that but I think it would be better served in ways similar to the UK and US. Ride-alongs, projects and I shudder as I say it, but TV (god help me I love Street crime UK) THe problem there is that we have a history of secrecy due to the need to be secretive. An open force could not operate as effectively in terms of intelligence gathering, surveliance, etc.

Oh and most gardai are overweight however do not assume unfit. They are not the same, its the shift work that does it trust me.

Trojan,
1. Its not realistic to train them equally, are you suggesting 2 years fulltime training for reserves (what about work?) or that it be part-time? It would take 5 years in that case and have you any idea of the cost? Theres no avoiding it, they will not have equal training.

3. But am I the mentor? I did not agree to this nor am I trained for it, thats why we have Sergeants and officers with specific training and more pay. I will not take responsibility for an inferior officer.

4. The FCA summer camp is on your holidays, court is weekly and can occur on any weekday. For the FCA you take time off, you would run out of days off fairly quick if you did this for court.

5. Maybe so but it needs answering.

6. I have no authority to invoke anything on another Garda nor will I be allowed arrest them, so what now?

7. Of course I have things to hide, is that a genuine answer? Im a bloody Garda for gods sake, I deal with sensitive and confidential information every day. We would not convict people at all if we were transparant and no, I am not aware of Gardai selling information. have you proof if this allegation or do "Know what I know"?

UK reserves: yes theres plenty of websites where officers insult eachother, its a regular read :rolleyes: Tell you what, go to www.lawenforcementforums.com/ or www.officer.com or www.realpolice.com and look at all the threads about reserves. You will see the fulltime officers are largely insulting and u****ressed. The reserves are very cimplimentary of eachother.

Your workplace: If you are not graceful enough to answer honestly dont bother replying. Its pretty obvious you concede the point. Oh and theres no such thing as low-level non-confrontational events, just because you dont witness a riot doesnt mean the Gardai are standing around twiddling our thimbs.

Leaking in the pub: WE are foribidden from working close to our home so te chances of encountering someone we know from home is reduced and again its about discipline, I can be sacked for blabbing. thats not a threat to a hobb-Garda.

The rest I agree with and Im not actually completely against the reserves I just have little faith in the current plan for them and the manner in which they are being introduced. Lets be honest, the minister hates the Gardai.

This Nutley guy, I like him

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 10:18pm

1. Its not realistic to train them equally, are you suggesting 2 years fulltime training for reserves (what about work?) or that it be part-time? It would take 5 years in that case and have you any idea of the cost? Theres no avoiding it, they will not have equal training.

Training which would have to exceed 4 weeks is a must, it will not work otherwise, and would bear a massive hinderance to a full timer.

3. But am I the mentor? I did not agree to this nor am I trained for it, thats why we have Sergeants and officers with specific training and more pay. I will not take responsibility for an inferior officer.

Not you specifically, but I see full timers walking with probationers those officers would be their mentors.

4. The FCA summer camp is on your holidays, court is weekly and can occur on any weekday. For the FCA you take time off, you would run out of days off fairly quick if you did this for court.

There would have to be some arrangement to release the volunteer for court.

6. I have no authority to invoke anything on another Garda nor will I be allowed arrest them, so what now?

No, ok, but you would make a statement or lodge a complaint against the volunteer should his/her conduct be unacceptable or criminal.

7. Of course I have things to hide, is that a genuine answer? Im a bloody Garda for gods sake, I deal with sensitive and confidential information every day. We would not convict people at all if we were transparant and no, I am not aware of Gardai selling information. have you proof if this allegation or do "Know what I know"?

A journailst entering the ranks as a journalist would be the downfall of the recruiting section, there could also be offences of obtaining a pecuniary advantage for the journalist etc...

UK reserves: yes theres plenty of websites where officers insult eachother, its a regular read :rolleyes: Tell you what, go to www.lawenforcementforums.com/ or www.officer.com or www.realpolice.com and look at all the threads about reserves. You will see the fulltime officers are largely insulting and u****ressed. The reserves are very cimplimentary of eachother.

No doubt, but there is also strong evidence of the exemplary work they contribute.

Your workplace: If you are not graceful enough to answer honestly dont bother replying. Its pretty obvious you concede the point. Oh and theres no such thing as low-level non-confrontational events, just because you dont witness a riot doesnt mean the Gardai are standing around twiddling our thimbs.

It was an honest answer, I do not need a boost, An Garda Síochána does, and here is an oppertunity to do it. But as stated pump the Force with some cash and members, and update the safety, vehicles and technology first. There has to be low level non confrontational public order events that occur. Surley the Gardaí use intelligence led information on certain marches / parades etc.

Leaking in the pub: WE are foribidden from working close to our home so te chances of encountering someone we know from home is reduced and again its about discipline, I can be sacked for blabbing. thats not a threat to a hobb-Garda.

I personally know of two gardaí in my area that work & live in the same area they patrol. But face facts, blabbing does occur, the jar to many etc, and there are also a few power crazed cops I have encountered elsewhere who in my opinion should not be members of An Garda Síochána. They let the Force down. The recent outbursts on TV / papers against the Reserves are uncalled for, as the saying goes, "Don't knock it until you try it" (er everything legal of course) :eek:

The rest I agree with and Im not actually completely against the reserves I just have little faith in the current plan for them and the manner in which they are being introduced. Lets be honest, the minister hates the Gardai.

Thank God for that....

TJ911...

Skyuser · 26-03-2006 10:27pm

I don't understand why anyone would volunteer to do this job. What do they get out of it? It's not like charity work.

Eru · 26-03-2006 10:31pm

Skyuser wrote:

I don't understand why anyone would volunteer to do this job. What do they get out of it? It's not like charity work.

To get a uniform and badge and/or for a power trip.

why does no one volunteer as a road sweeper, traffic warden or a binman?

Why is it only 'cool' jobs that people volunteer for?

And lastly, if I volnteered in someones job for free how would they react? I bet it wouldnt be in the same manner that we are expected to react to these reserves.

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 10:46pm

To get a uniform and badge and/or for a power trip.

Or to make a valuble contribution to a community.

TJ911...

Eru · 26-03-2006 10:47pm

Trojan911 wrote:

Not you specifically, but I see full timers walking with probationers those officers would be their mentors.

No probationers dont have mentors. A probationer is a full Garda but still within the first 2 years of service. What you see are student Gardai (blue tags instead of numbers), they have no powers of arrest or detention and are supposed to observe officers and only assist with the permission of their mentors. Mentors that are trained and volunteered for the duty plus thyey are not accountable for the students mistakes.

Trojan911 wrote:

No, ok, but you would make a statement or lodge a complaint against the volunteer should his/her conduct be unacceptable or criminal.

Yes but the worry is who is responsible? At the moment I would be so I would be getting myself in trouble.

Trojan911 wrote:

No doubt, but there is also strong evidence of the exemplary work they contribute.

Its tainted evidence from the government and the part-timers themselves. Ask those that have to work with them.

Trojan911 wrote:

[It was an honest answer, I do not need a boost, An Garda Síochána does, and here is an oppertunity to do it. But as stated pump the Force with some cash and members, and update the safety, vehicles and technology first.

So once the Gardai have the strenght and equipment to police properly why introduce a reserve? Its instead of fulltime officers, why can no one see this? its a patch job. Again I ask, If I went to your job and did it for free would A, the boss hire a fulltime professional or would he look to replace you with free labour?
B, Would you like this?

Trojan911 wrote:

I personally know of two gardaí in my area that work & live in the same area they patrol. But face facts, blabbing does occur, the jar to many etc, and there are also a few power crazed cops I have encountered elsewhere who in my opinion should not be members of An Garda Síochána. They let the Force down. The recent outbursts on TV / papers against the Reserves are uncalled for, as the saying goes, "Don't knock it until you try it"

They moved to the area AFTER being statuioned there. Outside of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway you cannot be within 20 miles of a district your family or relations live. Cities are less restricted but iuts still restricted. I can move to my dstations distruct but why would I? As for blabbing, again I lose my job, a reserve loses his hobby. Equal??? As for outbursts, we will see how you feel when I am doing your job for free and your livelyhood is threatened.

Trojan911 wrote:

Or to make a valuable contribution to a community.

Go volunteer as a road sweeper, bin man, charity group, drug rehab center, clean a park, sewage treatment plant or even clean graffiti from a wall.

Again, why only the 'cool' jobs? the one with the badges, uniforms, lights and excitement.

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 11:01pm

Yes but the worry is who is responsible? At the moment I would be so I would be getting myself in trouble.

You would have no fears if you were doing your job correctly. You would, no doubt, be praised for bringing a wrongdoing to light.

Its tainted evidence from the government and the part-timers themselves. Ask those that have to work with them.

I have.

So once the Gardai have the strenght and equipment to police properly why introduce a reserve? Its instead of fulltime officers, why can no one see this? its a patch job.

Because they would make a valuable contribution to a community. The Gardaí are not going to be flush with full time officers all the time if any.

Again I ask, If I went to your job and did it for free would A, the boss hire a fulltime professional or would he look to replace you with free labour?
B, Would you like this?

A: To be honest, my boss would be looking for the cheapest he could get.
B: It wouldn't bother me as I am not threatened in my capacity at work.

How many times has your shift paraded on a night duty below minimum strength?

How many times does an officer go out single manned in a cruiser?

These are safety issues that need to be addressed for your safety and the safety of your colleagues.... A reserve could assist there...

You are lucky, as you say you are in Dublin. A place where you would recieve urgent assistance pretty quickly, I would say, should it ever be required, but the country cop is not so fortunate and may have wait a while for reinforcements to arrive. The weak reserves would be rooted out if the process of training was good. The strong ones remain, that reserve may save one of your colleagues from a serious hiding or worse one day.

TJ911...

Skyuser · 26-03-2006 11:03pm

I just can't see people volunteering. Why would anyone do it if their not getting paid. They could have a job that pays them or even become a proper Garda and get paid.

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 11:15pm

Skyuser wrote:

I just can't see people volunteering. Why would anyone do it if their not getting paid. They could have a job that pays them or even become a proper Garda and get paid.

This is just it Skyuser,

There are people out there that given the chance, would make excellent Reservists, who would want to volunteer their time, yes they could also make good full time officers, but it appears the Minister for Justice wants to push for a Reserve Force, so we should at least give it a chance in my opinion.

TJ911...

(mmmmmmmm....Laura Croft)

Eru · 26-03-2006 11:16pm

Trojan911 wrote:

You would have no fears if you were doing your job correctly. You would, no doubt, be praised for bringing a wrongdoing to light.

Do you fail to understand on purpose? Allow me to explain, as a supervisor you are answerable for the actions of those below you. If you **** up questions are asked of your boss, **** rolls downhill as they say. Now if the reserve ****s up then the question will be why I failed to control the reserve. Now if I am not getting trained or paid as a supervisor why the hell should I take that crap and risk my career?

Trojan911 wrote:

Because they would make a valuable contribution to a community. The Gardaí are not going to be flush with full time officers all the time if any.

So the answer if second rate amateurs? No, its get the finger out and recruit enough proper Gardai. We dont have enough driving testers or nurses but that doesnt mean I should stroll in and start testing or handing out drugs.

Trojan911 wrote:

A: To be honest, my boss would be looking for the cheapest he could get.
B: It wouldn't bother me as I am not threatened in my capacity at work.

Your loyalty to your colleagues is astounding however unless you actually own the company I dont believe you can be this blind or short sighted.

Trojan911 wrote:

How many times has your shift paraded on a night duty below minimum strength?

How many times does an officer go out single manned in a cruiser?

These are safety issues that need to be addressed for your safety and the safety of your colleagues.... A reserve could assist there...

Thats a red herring. 4 hours a week will not guarantee full shifts or man power. remember its only 10%, it would take 10 reserves just to equal 1 officer a week. And how many will be working outside the weekend? Cars rarely go single manned, especially in cities.

Trojan911 wrote:

You are lucky, as you say you are in Dublin. A place where you would recieve urgent assistance pretty quickly, I would say, should it ever be required, but the country cop is not so fortunate and may have wait a while for reinforcements to arrive. The weak reserves would be rooted out if the process of training was good. The strong ones remain, that reserve may save one of your colleagues from a serious hiding or worse one day.

This I agree with, short term they may assist officers but the rural areas would inevitable have locals in uniform and the question is, would a local take action against a person he knows and deals with as a civilian?

Trojan911 · 26-03-2006 11:29pm

So the answer if second rate amateurs? No, its get the finger out and recruit enough proper Gardai. We dont have enough driving testers or nurses but that doesnt mean I should stroll in and start testing or handing out drugs.

First rate pro's if trained properly and yes as i've stated before, sort out the full timers first etc.

Your loyalty to your colleagues is astounding however unless you actually own the company I dont believe you can be this blind or short sighted.

My place of work is not the issue here.

Thats a red herring. 4 hours a week will not guarantee full shifts or man power. remember its only 10%, it would take 10 reserves just to equal 1 officer a week. And how many will be working outside the weekend? Cars rarely go single manned, especially in cities.

A minimum of four hours a week is the requirement to stay in... Specials in London have their own Skipper/Guv'nor who roster the shifts and then liase with the full time duties officer to provide cover (and no, I was not a Special)

the question is, would a local take action against a person he knows and deals with as a civilian?

That is the question we cannot answer until confronted.

Any way, cheers for your input, it was interesting...

TJ911...

Victor · 27-03-2006 2:46am

I think that a reserve does have specific possibilities, although I have to say the minister is probably going about it in the wrong fashion.

So, Karlitosway1978, why not allow civilians fill the available number of traffic warden positions that go unfilled. Yeah, the uniform isn't as sexy but they all report to the Commissioner, don't they?

Why not allow the reserve to target things that tend to fall between the gaps that the Garda can't do because of other priorities and councils don't / can't do. Like littering, nuisance / dangerous parking,

To decry reservists as people who have no skills does them a disservice. I know many a garda who can't turn off a computer, unless its their own. Or to have an older age profile where, that might be of use, e.g. bereavement notices.

Extra eyes (and feet) on the street are very useful.

Sparks · 27-03-2006 8:56am

I'd have to agree with Karlitosway on this one. Extra eyes on the street? That's what neighbourhood watch is for. If we don't have enough gardai (and we don't) then a bunch of wannabe volunteers is not the solution. If these people want to contribute to their community, and are suitable to act as reservists, what possible reason could there be for them not to be actual Gardai?

Victor · 27-03-2006 9:01am

Sparks wrote:

what possible reason could there be for them not to be actual Gardai?

They weren't 5 foot 9 when they grew up.

Not everyone will want to go through a complete career change just to contribute to policing.

EducatedGuess · 27-03-2006 10:49am

This post is a very interesting one and is highlighting the logistical problem that will face the Gardai in supporting such a reserve. I personally would be for a proper reserve coming in but with the right training, I would not give any reserve the power of arrest. A Garda biggest 'powers' are discretion and arrest. My professional opinion [Lawyer and MA in Criminology] is extremely against it. I am afraid to say that the Gardai are one of the most unresourced police forces in Europe, although training Gardai has improved in the past 10 years, more focus needs to be given to attitudes and a force more respected by the public it protects. We dont even have an independent Garda ombudsman. Give the Gardai more resources, better equipment etc, speed up the recruitment process. Someone wrote earlier that what would happen if a reserve Garda got baton happy, the exact same thing if a Garda got baton happy. They would all plead ignorance and an internal unindependent investigation would take place. How can we give these powers to people after a short training period when we haven't managed to bring the current Garda up to international standard of policing. Minister Mc Dowell said recently it was a shame that Gardai do not even have pepper spray here, bring in pepper spray, bring in an armed force but bring in an independent ombudsman so Gardai are accountable. What the Minister understands is that for every action there is a reaction. But sadly there is not much of a reaction towards a Garda's action. Take for instance the two males that were in Garda custody and died later on. Now to date there has been no independent inquiry into the deaths. The defence is that the Coroners Court will deal with the matter, but the Coroner only deals with: When, Why and How not WHO.

So how possibly can we have a reserve force when we do not have a Garda Force up to scratch at present? Lets resource the Gardai with what they need and then evaluate the possibility of a reserve.

Victor · 27-03-2006 1:56pm

The Reserve could investigate the fulltime (actually what will the fulltime element be called?) and vice-versa.

For such cases it would be useful to have two/three separate police forces (on perhaps the Spanish model, but without the whole macho thing), with one responsible for investigating the other. Apparently some of the Ombusdman's staff in the North are currently being investigated by the PSNI.

Eru · 27-03-2006 2:03pm

Trojan,
Likewise.

Victor,
I am not 5ft 9in either and traffic wardens dont report to the commisioner, they arent Gardai.

Educated, with respect. the ombudsman in the PSNI is currently being investigated for shooting someone so they are not the champions people believe them too be.

Secondly, internal affiars remains the main method of rooting out bad police officers in the world. The NYPD has an excellent IA and if you research the MET's own CIB Im sure you would be surprised at the lenghts that IA departments go to in investigations.

Without risking being shot at dawn, I can tell you that this imaginary 'protection' is exactly that , imaginary. If I broke the law or went baton happy the force would not only fail to protect me, they would cruficy me and throw the carcass to the wolves. Trust me, the Gardai shoot their own lame flock far more than your beloved PSNI ombudsman, we just dont call press conferences everytime (2 gine for drink driving in the past 6 months and thats not even a criminal conviction).

In addition, if you get an ombudsman can we have a proper union? can I obtain the same employee rights that you enjoy? can your boss search your private vehicle and home for work related items? Mine can.

As for the deaths in cells, why do you presume theres something to hide? because criminals say so? Because its popular to hate and insult Gardai? there is no evidence and honestly, the Gardai in charge of these people just arent important enough for a conspiracy to protect them. I can also personally state that Wheelock was not harmed by any Gardai while in custody. In fact he was joking and laughing when brought in. Why he did what he did, only god knows now but suicide is rarely a rational action. I also dont appreciate being accused of murder Ms Bambury. Poeple die all the time in all manner of places, hospital, churches, beds and even the shower. Why not in cells?

HelterSkelter · 27-03-2006 2:25pm

I think the reserve force is a very bad idea. I have some neighbours I am having problems with (as Karlitosway1978 will know from an earlier thread!!) I wouldn't fancy them joining the reserve Guards and hassling me all the time.

HelterSkelter · 27-03-2006 2:30pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

...I can also personally state that Wheelock was not harmed by any Gardai while in custody. In fact he was joking and laughing when brought in. Why he did what he did, only god knows now but suicide is rarely a rational action.

Why was the cell he died in renovated before Wheelock's legal team were allowed to view it? Is it true it was renovated a few days after his death?

EducatedGuess · 27-03-2006 2:35pm

I never said the Ombudsman is a save and grace, I just think that independant invetigations should be carried out for clarity. I do agree with your point, that the problem then lies in well if the Ombudsman is investigating the Police, whose investigating the Ombudsman? But its better than Police investigating Police, on certain things! I understand that certain internal affairs need to be carried out by Gardai when it does not involve the public. Barristers are self employed persons so no boss to search my car. On the matter of death in custody, hope you didnt get the wrong end of the stick. Just stating that the refusal to have an independent inquiry raises questions in itself. I know people die in all circumstances and understand that point. What about the Case of Maloney, Gardai first deny that he was even in custody and then say oh yes he was, later found on a street in Rathfarnham. Again not pointing the finger 101 things could have happened him.

The current Morris Tribunal spoke volumes last week when one brave member of the force decided to name Gardai. How many Gardai recognised 'Robocop' on the May Day riots?. [From his own unit]. Was that excessive use of a baton, did he have his Garda Identification Numbers off? Now I have to say that I personally have nothing but admiration for the Gardai, but I think there is lot more issues to be addressed within the force as it is, without introducing under trained reserves.

dermot_sheehan · 27-03-2006 6:39pm

hullaballoo wrote:

This forum is about the most appropriate, thanks for asking.

I think there are a number of fairly important constitutional issues that arise with regard to the reserve force. I don't have my copy of Bunracht na hÉireann here with me now, but I'm fairly sure the police force of the state are constitutionally empowered, and given the name "Garda Síochána".

Gardai aren't mentioned at all in the constitution, the defence forces are, the oireachtas is, the courts, european union, attorney general, comptroller general all are, but the gardai aren't.

The Proposed Garda Reserve Force

Comments