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Does personal responsibility for one's situation exist in Ireland?

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Comments

  • #152
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Debt forgiveness in a lot of cases is just another phrase for rewarding recklessness. The people who actually deserve debt forgiveness, to my mind, are quite a small group.

    If we're going to have 'debt forgiveness' why not write everyone's debts down by the same proportion?

    If the answer to sluggish growth is to forgive the debt of some people, why not forgive the debt of everyone and really allow the economy to blossom?

    Surely, the people who did borrow sensibly will save and invest sensibly if they find themselves with more disposable income? What's to stop people who get a pass on their debts from going off and doing it all over again?

    EDIT: Plus I don't believe withholding 'debt forgiveness' hurts everyone - if it's acting as a brake on inflation and limiting the scope for feckless politicians to introduce populist policies then there is an argument for continuing to dispense it in very measured amounts.
    Even better, there could be a Europe-wide Debt Jubilee (need to scroll down a lot, to get to correct section), a once-off payment given to everybody (which has to be used to pay down debts first of all), so that people who were prudent are not left out, they get something too.

    Inflation, at the correct limit, is a good thing - we do not have enough inflation at the moment, in fact, we have so little inflation we are at risk of deflation:
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/inflation-cpi

    Witholding debt forgiveness absolutely and most definitely holds back aggregate demand, and when we hit deflation, we will have debt-deflation - which is the kind of nightmare situation, that has landed Japan into stagnation for two whole decades so far.


    Why do you think we should rely solely on people to not take out excessive debt? That's insanity - we've already seen people will do that, so the only solution to that, is to make those giving out the loans responsible - because they are the only ones who can stop it.
    Where is the responsibility/accountability for them? There was none.


  • #153
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Even better, there could be a Europe-wide Debt Jubilee (need to scroll down a lot, to get to correct section), a once-off payment given to everybody (which has to be used to pay down debts first of all), so that people who were prudent are not left out, they get something too.

    Well that's one approach - a better one that wouldn't look like people getting paid off - would be a process whereby people could negotiate a reduction in their mortgage and then opt to avail of continuing to pay at the same rate over a shorter term or reduce the monthly amount payable but keep the term as orginally set.
    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Inflation, at the correct limit, is a good thing - we do not have enough inflation at the moment, in fact, we have so little inflation we are at risk of deflation:
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/inflation-cpi

    Quite agree. Our inflation should be closer to 2% - I've no problem seeing the current rate trebling.
    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Witholding debt forgiveness absolutely and most definitely holds back aggregate demand, and when we hit deflation, we will have debt-deflation - which is the kind of nightmare situation, that has landed Japan into stagnation for two whole decades so far.

    TBH, I'd say it just holds back demand at the margin - which is a good thing. If we retard the potential of the reckless to fuel demand by taking on more debt - or taking on another round of debt - can that be such a bad thing?
    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Why do you think we should rely solely on people to not take out excessive debt? That's insanity - we've already seen people will do that, so the only solution to that, is to make those giving out the loans responsible - because they are the only ones who can stop it.
    Where is the responsibility/accountability for them? There was none.

    Bit of both I'd say - it has to be clear to both borrower and lender that they must live with the consequences of their decisions to extend or avail of credit. If they over extend then bankruptcy or the personal insolvency process is the way to resolve it rather than a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card.

    Debt-forgiveness implies that if you borrow enough you'll be able to walk away from the unsustainable portion of your debt - it encourages people to take on more debt.

    Likewise, you won't seen any kind of prudential lending until bankers start forfeiting their liberty and regulators start getting kicked (without pensions) out of their jobs.

    ......and every time we return a non-reforming government, or a TD more interested in fixing potholes and screwing the Lottery grants for the local GAA club we endorse the system - lots of people want reform but no one votes for it.

    EDIT: - that last bit should probably read that 'not enough people vote for it.'


  • #154
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    people may have been lulled into a false sense of security during the boom.
    mortgages, even hugh ones, were easy to get. people could get enough to kit out the house as well. before that, if you were lucky enough to get a mortgage, you saved and did up each room as you could afford it. i'm talking for myself there in case others didn't.

    maybe people thought it would last forever.
    it's hard to know who's 100% to blame.


  • #155
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Jawgap wrote: »
    TBH, I'd say it just holds back demand at the margin - which is a good thing. If we retard the potential of the reckless to fuel demand by taking on more debt - or taking on another round of debt - can that be such a bad thing?
    It holds back demand significantly - that's why excessive private debt is a bad thing, in a struggling economy.

    You don't prevent the problem of private debt, by keeping people saddled with debt - that obviously just ensures the problem stays in place - you prevent the problem by not giving them the loans/debt in the first place.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    Bit of both I'd say - it has to be clear to both borrower and lender that they must live with the consequences of their decisions to extend or avail of credit. If they over extend then bankruptcy or the personal insolvency process is the way to resolve it rather than a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card.

    Debt-forgiveness implies that if you borrow enough you'll be able to walk away from the unsustainable portion of your debt - it encourages people to take on more debt.

    Likewise, you won't seen any kind of prudential lending until bankers start forfeiting their liberty and regulators start getting kicked (without pensions) out of their jobs.

    ......and every time we return a non-reforming government, or a TD more interested in fixing potholes and screwing the Lottery grants for the local GAA club we endorse the system - lots of people want reform but no one votes for it.

    EDIT: - that last bit should probably read that 'not enough people vote for it.'
    That's fine if you're talking about individual mortgages and borrowers/lenders, but when you're talking about something on the scale of the whole economy, withholding debt-forgiveness punishes everybody (whether they took out a mortgage or not), by holding back economic recovery.

    Effectively, it's "cutting the nose off to spite the face", and does nothing to stop the same happening again in the future.

    The people who actually have the power to stop the crisis happening again, are both insulated from the worst effects of the crisis, and were rewarded for causing it, through huge salaries/bonuses/dividends/pensions gained before the crisis hit - they are actually incentivized/encouraged to do it all over again, because it's so personally profitable.


  • #156
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    It holds back demand significantly - that's why excessive private debt is a bad thing, in a struggling economy.

    You don't prevent the problem of private debt, by keeping people saddled with debt - that obviously just ensures the problem stays in place - you prevent the problem by not giving them the loans/debt in the first place.


    That's fine if you're talking about individual mortgages and borrowers/lenders, but when you're talking about something on the scale of the whole economy, withholding debt-forgiveness punishes everybody (whether they took out a mortgage or not), by holding back economic recovery.

    Effectively, it's "cutting the nose off to spite the face", and does nothing to stop the same happening again in the future.

    The people who actually have the power to stop the crisis happening again, are both insulated from the worst effects of the crisis, and were rewarded for causing it, through huge salaries/bonuses/dividends/pensions gained before the crisis hit - they are actually incentivized/encouraged to do it all over again, because it's so personally profitable.

    Well it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I would, however, distinguish between private debt that becomes excessive because interest rates go up and private debt that is excessive because people were greedy and borrowed too much, especially to fund lifestyles.

    Finally, I don't feel punished by debt forgiveness being withheld and I work in a demand-led services firm. We're doing reasonably well. I'm on track for modest year-end bonus (something I never had in Ireland as I worked in the public sector for much of the last 15 years).

    If anything I think the prospect of debt forgiveness is keeping borrowing costs high as banks have to price it in as a contingency. Better to crystallise the losses and drive down the cost of housing by getting the repossessed units onto the market.

    It seems to me the 'hares' who lived unsustainably during the boom want debt forgiveness to re-set the clock and give them another shot at winning the race - at the expense of us tortoises ;)


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  • #157
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Leopardhyena wrote: »
    Do you fancy giving me a loan?

    You can bet you wont get a chunk of that one written off!


  • #158
    costadeldole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 162 ✭✭costadeldole


    Does personal responsibility for one's situation exist in Ireland?
    No, not at all.
    The Irish have a blame culture, and it is always someone else's fault; never their own.
    That is one of the greatest things about living in an indoctrinated Christian culture; the spirit of forgiveness. No matter how bad the wrongdoing, how bad the mistake, one can always blame it on someone else, then forgive them for it.
    In other countries, the blame culture is less so; and the forgiveness too. Fewer are above the law, and there is less cronyism, corruption, and nepotism.
    But one can't complain, its good when you are getting away with making a mess of things, its only bad when you are the one clearing up the mess.
    Like any man, I have made some massive mistakes in my life. Would I care to admit them, when I can blame someone else and get away with it? No. Getting away with making a mistake in life, and seeing someone else take the blame is wrong; but one of life's great pleasures.
    Learning from mistakes is something else we don't do in Ireland. We repeat the cycle ad infinitum. Its part of our psyche, making mistakes; repeating them, and blaming someone else each time.
    The child blames his sibling for breaking the china, and see his sibling take the wooden spoon punishment for it.
    By the time one is an adult we are all cute whores and well versed in the art of blame culture.
    Bankers, greedy mortgage holders, financial regulators, government. They are no different. The truth is they all share a portion of blame for the Celtic Tiger boom and bust, but each one prefers to blame another, rather than admit their own portion of the blame.
    We all share the gratification of getting away with things in the good times, and we all share the punishment of high taxes and austerity in the bad times. That's the reality of it all. One can be an idealist and talk about a future Ireland utopia where there is no corruption and no blame culture, but in reality we will always be a nation of cute whores; and I wouldn't have it any other way.


  • #159
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    A spaceman walks into any town in Ireland in the early 00s

    'My, you all have such wonderful houses ', he says to a local, 'could you tell me what the main industry is around here?'

    'We build houses', says the local triumphantly.

    The spaceman is bewildered.

    How does the spaceman speak English?


  • #160
    costadeldole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 162 ✭✭costadeldole


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    How does the spaceman speak English?


    He learned it on a JobBridge 9 month internship with NASA, before they offered him a full time job.


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